fecking hell
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Wow, at this point I'm surprised pogba's mother hasn't caught any flack for giving birth to him.
A brilliant one, saw it only now. On-point dissection of the prejudices and confirmation biases around Pogba. Just want to highlight this part in particular:
I (non-United fan) tried to argue against this stuff for about 1,5 seasons, but gave up at some point. He just couldn't win. When - in light of deficient fluidity and team play - he took matters in his own hands, with all the inevitable risk involved, he was "playing for himself" and "lacking football intelligence" (another one of these tropes). But if he "kept it simple" as demanded, it was claimed he "looks disinterested" and "can't take the game by the scruff of its neck". It was maddening.
Many thanks.
Yea, they are usual cliches, and what is worrying is how repetition validates theory and shapes public opinion.
I used the example earlier, but compare the reaction to how he takes penalties and the reaction to how Bruno takes them. ‘Silly run-up’, ‘Trying to be the star of the show’ etc. Bruno’s hop and skip is cleverness. No Gary Neville in the studio saying ‘why can’t he just put his foot through it?’.
Wow that was pathetic. One of the least insightful pieces of punditry I’ve ever heard. Nothing to say and saying it too loudly, not allowing the presenter to get a word in.
I’d have to ask does Danny Mills feel like he achieved as much or played to the level of Paul Pogba during his career ? Did he ever go to a siblings wedding whilst playing ? Did he ever go out whilst injured ? Did he play any other sport recreationally while injured ?
We also have to look at it from Souness' point of view.
What do you think his bosses at Sky are telling him? "Dammit Souness, your constant biased criticism of this superstar footballer is raking us millions of views and comments, tone it down?" Even this most recent online interview must have received hundreds of thousands of views, you think his employers will be unhappy at his behaviour or encourage it?
And even putting that aside, as a Liverpool legend and fan, do we think he simply wants what's best for Pogba and Man Utd? He's pained that Pogs has so much talent and just isn't pushing Man Utd to succeed? Or is it something else, and if so, what?
Once we ask these sorts of questions then we can see where the over the top criticism is really coming from, and whether it bears listening to or not.
What do you think his bosses at Sky are telling him? "Dammit Souness, your constant biased criticism of this superstar footballer is raking us millions of views and comments, tone it down?" Even this most recent online interview must have received hundreds of thousands of views, you think his employers will be unhappy at his behaviour or encourage it?
And even putting that aside, as a Liverpool legend and fan, do we think he simply wants what's best for Pogba and Man Utd? He's pained that Pogs has so much talent and just isn't pushing Man Utd to succeed? Or is it something else, and if so, what?
Once we ask these sorts of questions then we can see where the over the top criticism is really coming from, and whether it bears listening to or not.
I quite like him, he’s entertaining.
If you're not playing well you better not be seen at your brother's wedding
it gives the wrong impression, like Manchester United isn't the only thing in your life.
it gives the wrong impression, like Manchester United isn't the only thing in your life.
Souness is lurching into self-parody, an old man railing that things aren’t like they used to be. But, on the question of playing achievements, Souness is way ahead at this stage with his three European cups. He was also the midfield general of those Liverpool sides while I feel Pogba (as with Juve and France) is better as the foil than the main man. Certainly at United he has underwhelmed when trying to drive the team forward. As for the World Cup, Pogba comes from the most successful football nation of the last 20 years while Souness played for an also ran nation (albeit slightly less useless back in his day).
Was just Carra being a nob.
Souness admitted so, since he was a bit of a flash cnut. The guy had a perm which takes some maintenance.
I feel the 3rd bolded bit is what makes him irate as he thinks Pogba is much better than he was so cannot understand the drops in performance level.
He is a bit obsessed and people always ask questions about him to get him going
Yeah, I mean it literally has become a meme at this point, I actually have a laugh whenever they bring him up to Souness because they know that he just can't help himself, and so do we. And as others have said, I don't believe Souness is frustrated Pogba is not reaching the potential he believes he has, I don't think he's rooting for Pogba to ever achieve that, and he'd be very happy if he never got United anywhere. And we know that Souness and Pogba are completely different players, and Pogba's already had a season as a midfielder that Souness could never even comprehend, let alone come close to, on an individual level, but Pogba in England hasn't been on a dominant team like Souness with Liverpool at the time (but we've seen him in a dominant team in Italy and he played a key role that led to a WC transfer), so his criticism or perception of where the player should be is irrelevant, it's just a huge source of clickbait for Sky, but it's embarrassing that it's actually shaped some fans' opinions who repeat the same cliches Souness has used against him.
Fans have had held some of these opinions way before Souness started chatting about him though. There were tonnes of threads about him since he 1st came. No one thought he had been our saviour and many expected more and still do.
which season are you referring too again?
No, I disagree, when people are talking about Pogba being unprofessional, a YouTube player, etc, stuff that you hear on this forum, a lot of that came from Souness and people repeat it because that's all they hear out of him. You didn't hear that about Pogba when he first came from Juventus. I mean, FFS even him coming back from winning a WC didn't stop Souness and his own coach to create even more negative buzz about him almost immediately. Whatever praise came with some side of criticism. Fair enough when it's about on-the-field performances, but when you start using the same tired labels Souness uses, it's not something that came without that influence. A lot of people just repeat what they hear and get their opinions shaped that easily, especially if they get frustrated by their club's performance and its best player, it's not out of the ordinary.
As far as what season, I mean take your pick. Any season he's been healthy, he creates, scores, assists in ways that simply wasn't in Souness' locker, nor in the locker of a lot of CMs for that matter. Just last season he was leading scorer/assist for the club, which has been beaten to death so I bore myself even mentioning it, but that tells you the state of the team at the time. Of course Souness is a completely different player and was part of a great team, but that only highlights my point more that he shouldn't try to make any comparison between himself and Pogba whether it's in mentality, playing style, or lifestyle, which he can't help himself from doing.
I completely agree with you about Rooney. That bloody chip had the lowest success rate of any player ever! I also agree that he is selfish and disruptive and should never have been United captain. He would never have been appointed captain if Fergie had stayed.
But as to why this wasn't pointed out in mainstream media? Same reason selfishness wasn't pointed out about Gerrard or Terry's lack of pace being exposed with no Makelele or Rio's lack of concentration or physicality.
They were England's golden generation and even to this day people blame coaches for their lack of success when they just weren't anywhere near as good as they thought they were. English media overhypes English players. They always have.
I don't live in the UK so I am not as exposed to the mainstream media there anymore so maybe I am missing the point. But Pogba is an incredibly frustrating player.
I love his charisma and his character. Football needs personalities and characters like that. My sons love football and copied his celebrations when they scored on the weekends. For a time, Pogba even made Jesse Lingard look cool.
Pogba is one of the most talented midfield players I have ever seen. His skill is phenomenal, his passing range with both feet is almost unfair, he has speed, power, athleticism and he is good defensively when he can be bothered.
But, he doesn't make the best of those talents. He was a huge investment for United and the circus around him with his agent, brothers and even himself in the media is incredibly disruptive. It's constant excuses for why he doesn't perform and as things stand now (crazy as it seems when he's clearly the club's most talented player), United as a club would be better off without him.
Ronaldo is a really good comparison in my opinion. Underrated next to England's golden boy Rooney when he arrived at United. Criticised for diving, his hairstyle, for being "flash", modelling underwear and more recently mocked for the goal celebration. But nobody is laughing now, not because of his skin colour but, because his work ethic and commitment to be the best made him one of the greatest footballers that has ever lived.
Nobody deserves personal criticism of how they live their life. As long as they do nothing illegal or unethical, who is entitled to criticise or judge? But you need to be really careful bandying about "racism" when it can just as easily be seen as "old man criticises the youth of today". People criticise what they don't understand or can't relate to. It doesn't have to be racist.
As a footballer, you can't argue with the criticism levelled at Pogba. The evidence is there on the pitch. He has been a huge disappointment at United.
On the penalty style, Bruno doesn't get criticised because he scores!
Now that I've actually watched the footage of both Pogba's podcast with Man United and Souness' interview with Sky, here's my thoughts:
1. Pogba was actually extremely respectful and honest. "I heard he was a great player but I didn't know who he was". He wasn't dismissive in any way, he just admitted the honest truth.
2. I would blame Sky and particularly Carragher more than Souness for the response, it's like they were baiting him.
1. Pogba was actually extremely respectful and honest. "I heard he was a great player but I didn't know who he was". He wasn't dismissive in any way, he just admitted the honest truth.
2. I would blame Sky and particularly Carragher more than Souness for the response, it's like they were baiting him.
Seriously, the best thing Pogba could just say is "I've heard about Souness achievements - he's the guy who signed Ali Dia while managing Southampton. Based on his ability to judge players I'm going to just go ahead and ignore his comments about me."
1. Souness was known to be very sour about the episode where he was made a laughing for signing a literal fraud, that he threaten to punch his interviewer when asked about it.
2. Remind everyone that Souness is shit at judging players, and use that as an excuse to ignore Souness judgement of Pogba.
1. Souness was known to be very sour about the episode where he was made a laughing for signing a literal fraud, that he threaten to punch his interviewer when asked about it.
2. Remind everyone that Souness is shit at judging players, and use that as an excuse to ignore Souness judgement of Pogba.
Oh yeah! Forgot about that.
Somebody needs to make sure Pogba is aware of that debacle, would be such a burn if Pogs were to mention it.
Yes I haven’t seen the videos but that is exactly how I expected it would have been.
Just more of the same tripe from Sky. At this point they would be forgiven for brining back Andy Gray and Richard Keys!
Souness is becoming a parody. The sooner they put him out to pasture the better.
Just catching up with this thread. Your post is spot on. I actually said something similar in another thread back in January:
Glad to see I’m not the only one who has clocked the undertones.
I agree with nearly all of @Rozay's post, apart from the bit at the end where he seems to be suggesting that those complaining about Pogba's footballing deficiencies must be influenced by those other factors because he is indisputably one of the best midfielders around.
The reality is that there are very valid reasons to criticize Pogba as a footballer, even if those who most highly rate him seem reluctant to accept that this is the case. Players are always judged in the context of their price tag, reputation and potential ability. And against that context Pogba has been a relative disappointment at Manchester United. That hasn't happened with absolutely no contribution on his part. He quite clearly has some very evident flaws in his game and some people will judge those flaws more or less harshly depending on their view on football. It would be bizarre to think that this wouldn't or shouldn't attract fair criticism, even though he remains better than an awful lot of other players we judge to a lesser standard. A comparison would be someone like Mesut Ozil, who has long been divisive due to certain flaws as a footballer that particularly irritate some fans, while others focus on the positives he brings in terms of talent and creativity. He has certainly attracted more criticism that some other players who have objectively offered less than he has, for reasons that are squarely to do with football.
The issue is that fair criticism of Pogba has been subsumed by criticism that varies from being simply stupid to falling perfectly in line with racist tropes about black players. In fact a lot of people seem to fall into this trap even without realising their criticism carries those undertones, which I suspect is also the case with Souness.
The reality is that there are very valid reasons to criticize Pogba as a footballer, even if those who most highly rate him seem reluctant to accept that this is the case. Players are always judged in the context of their price tag, reputation and potential ability. And against that context Pogba has been a relative disappointment at Manchester United. That hasn't happened with absolutely no contribution on his part. He quite clearly has some very evident flaws in his game and some people will judge those flaws more or less harshly depending on their view on football. It would be bizarre to think that this wouldn't or shouldn't attract fair criticism, even though he remains better than an awful lot of other players we judge to a lesser standard. A comparison would be someone like Mesut Ozil, who has long been divisive due to certain flaws as a footballer that particularly irritate some fans, while others focus on the positives he brings in terms of talent and creativity. He has certainly attracted more criticism that some other players who have objectively offered less than he has, for reasons that are squarely to do with football.
The issue is that fair criticism of Pogba has been subsumed by criticism that varies from being simply stupid to falling perfectly in line with racist tropes about black players. In fact a lot of people seem to fall into this trap even without realising their criticism carries those undertones, which I suspect is also the case with Souness.
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What I don't get is why noone brings up Ali Dia.
If there is anything that will get him to stay in his lane it's that.
This is the man always harassing Pogba consistently. I wonder what his employers think after making such a stupid comment during a time like this. Is he not supposed to be some sort of self righteous role model?Tweet
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Im sure he would be the selfish cnut that hides his bite in a zombie apocalypse.
Vile and disgusting scumbag.
don't think he ever tries to be self righteous as he admitted he was a big time Charlie. He bangs on about giving it all on the pitch. He has been consistent with this.
I think you have to look at the behaviour of Pogba and ask what is he doing? His antics have caused an elderly man to have a mental breakdown and I'd be questioning where his priorities lie.
cnuty and completely irresponsible thing to say which most of the Sky pundits have been through this situation.
I don't see the problem, he said he could be persuaded by his manager if he felt fine. It would be a stupid thing to do, but it's highlighting the possible mindset of some players. He's clearly suggesting we void the season.
He has also admitted that he would willingly put other people’s lives at risk. I guess it doesn’t matter because he is passionate on the pitch.
its clear you don’t understand how a virus works if you think there is nothing wrong with what he has said. I guess there is no need for anyone to self isolate since there isn’t a chance of spreading a deadly virus to others as long as you seem fine to go about your daily business.
You clearly understand being a drama queen. I work in healtchcare, I know how a virus works. He's an ex player highlighting a possible mindset of some players, he's in no position to do what he's actually talking about given he's retired, but he's highlighted a possible problem with his comments. He's hardly going to lace up his boots now is he?
But given he's highlighted that this could be a problem it's something else for them to consider when bringing football back. Not that it's a new thought or anything, some of these people are so selfish they can't go without hookers during a pandemic.
Special breed Liverpool players aint they? Suarez takes a chomp out of you, Carragher covers you in spit and Souness finishes you off with a virus
That’s were we both disagree. There is no sane mindset where you understand how a virus works and are aware you have tested positive for said virus but think it’s okay to lace up your boots and go to work just because you’re needed. I don’t think there is any normal footballer who would want to play willingly knowing they can spread a deadly virus. Basically he has created a problem that doesn’t exist because in truth he is a horrible person. I’m sure every footballer in this league has been educated on what to do with if they test positive for the virus so what’s the need in him highlighting a problem that doesn’t exist?
I also know he is in no position to play given he is retired but for him to understand something that isnt normal tells you why we shouldn’t put stock into anything he has to say.
Yes there very clearly is that mindset, there's businesses that refused to close until they were forced to, people that consider it nothing but a burden to them and try to get around the rules. There are people flouting the lockdown rules to go drinking in parks. People ignoring them to go queue outside shops. There's a reason police were given extra powers to deal with people ignoring the lockdown. There are footballers ignoring the rules and spread of this to bring in hookers and throw parties. There was a manager in Germany suspended for breaking the rules. To suggest he's made this mindset up is ludicrous.
You're wilfully being naive because he said some bad things about a player you like and this gives you a platform to give off about him. How are you any better than what he does?
You’ve missed the point that none of these people willingly know if they’ve tested positive for the virus. Isn’t that what my argument has always been based off? My argument is that these people will self isolate and not decide to expose themselves like souness says he would if they knew they tested positive. Start from there.
None of these people knowingly did those things having tested positive though, which is an obvious key difference.
Ignorant on every level from Sourness.
Ignoring the morality, infecting others etc side of things, which is bad enough, is the fact that you can obviously be ill with it - so he very likely wouldn't be playing with it to any extent anyway! The donut.
Ignoring the morality, infecting others etc side of things, which is bad enough, is the fact that you can obviously be ill with it - so he very likely wouldn't be playing with it to any extent anyway! The donut.
Disgraceful comments. He probably thinks stuff like this makes him more of a man, the insecure fart.
You don't know that. You're assuming their selfishness would stop if they tested positive, why assume that? They are selfish enough to break the rules in the first place, why assume there's a cut off for them?
Graeme would tell you to cheat on your wife as long as you don't get caught.
A right wing Tory supporting property developer Brexiter gammon wouldn't give a feck about putting others at risk? I'm shocked.