The question is whether arsenal are serious about going back to being one of the elite teams or not. All those players are good players with a decent amount of ability but they all have glaring flaws in their game that would be hard to iron out for even the most astute of tacticians. The others should lose out too cause they haven't covered themselves in glory in recent times. Wenger didn't seem to have too many tactical nightmares when he had G.Silva and Viera getting it done, these lads however its been a different matter. They have to take responsibility.
Granit "The Hacker" Xhaka | Likes his reds
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Silva & Vieira were great players, but tactics have evolved since then. Critics say Wenger has not. So maybe he was up to date back then, but isn't anymore at present. (I can't really make a judgement on that issue as a whole.)
But it's a matter of opinion in the end. We'll just have to wait and see what coach & players are able to do next season.
Oh Xhaka will distribute from deep, there's no doubt about that, the thing is though he'll also be asked to protect the defence all by himself as the other midfielders will be galevanting somewhere else. Once that happens, as usual, the arsenal defence will be exposed again. I think its critical wenger signs a competent no 8 who has a solid defensive game especially with a player like Xhaka at the base of midfield. While he can pass it, and is pretty good on the ball he's streets away from ever being a makelele defensively.
His positioning can be fine and all but what's the point of being in the right position if you're not going to be affecting the play? What about his reading of play and his work on the cover? Xhaka and Cazorla at the base of midfield really would be asking for trouble. Wilshere I don't blame to much, he just isn't a natural midfielder. Ramsey is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
An inept player defensively can be hidden if everyone around him can work in order to cover his deficiencies. Saying that he played there for Malaga is of no relevance as I've seen Pirlo play their his whole career and his teams cope just fine. Even in the game you're talking about his biggest contribution was on the ball. Arsenal was decently organized on the day and relinquished the ball to city, he was the one that coped really well with the pressing as he's technically amazing. However if we're purely talking defending in midfield, then I'd say only Fabregas is slightly worse than him in the league. There's a reason he could shine when Coquelin was put next to him, cause coquelin could carry the load remarkably well for that period of time.
Tactics haven't evolved all that much. We've just seen Leicester win the league with a manager using genuine old school tactics. Critics should be saying that Wenger has let the quality of his squad deteriorate over the years.
Being in the right position is affecting the play. You're covering a space that would be open if you weren't there. Cazorla played at the base of midfield and did fine and if Xhaka is as good as people who watch him say they'll do well. If we're been overrun in midfield we can always sub in Coquelin or Elneny.
I meant the tactics in world football, not the Premier League. There was a profound revolution of collective play from ca. 2008 up to now, and from what I saw of Arsenal and other Premier League teams in recent years (not that much, but still a bit) suggested they didn't quite catch up. Which may make players look worse than they could be.
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I think its more a case of their being a talent drain from the top English clubs. No one can convince me that our squads since Tevez and Ronnie left have been of anywhere near that standard. City had a few great players and paired them up with some really mediocre ones. Chelsea got old, then got really young, brought in mou(about as tactically astute as you get) and still got nowhere. Arsenal have been losing players really regularly and still haven't found players of the sort of standards they had in the past. When Sanchez joined arsenal he looked a genuine level above the others, yet he was seen as surplus to requirements at an elite team.
I'd say Klopp and Pep are the only managers that have added something different in the game. Klopp himself after losing players struggled to maitain the standards above and without investment in quality, he won't be taking pool anywhere. Pep's new age tactics could replicate the monster season Bayern had before he got there. There hasn't been some major revoulution in the game, just English teams have really struggled with finding the quality to compete in Europe despite throwing all amounts of money to the problem. These players aren't being made to look worse, they just aren't good enough.
Until someone directly attacks you and then you can't do anything about it cause you can't tackle or win the ball back using other means such as body strength. Being there is important, but being able to do something about the danger that's posed there is equaly as important when he judging a players defensive prowess.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Xhaka would provide the physical presence in midfield, Cazorla would provide passing, control and dribbling.
Xhaka isn't a good enough athlete to provide a physical presence in midfield.
He's strong enough and if his positioning is good then his lack of pace won't matter. There have been plenty of excellent deep midfielders who haven't been quick.
Oh yeah? For someone without a physical presence he always has a lot of possession and completed passes as well as won tackles. Sometimes more than the opponent team combined.
I thought the Carrick comparison is a pretty good one and I'm sure Arsenal fans would be really happy with Xhaka if he could provide a similar combination of defensive protection and build-up play from the back for them. Maybe Xhaka develops into an even better player, who knows. But reaching Carrick's peak level would already be pretty damn great.
In a midfield with Cazorla he'd need to have the sort of workrate that he just doesn't have.
Doesn't have the workrate to provide a physical presence. Not enough to cover for a cazorla anyways.What?
Come on now, you don't really know him, do ya?
Possession and completed passes have nothing to do with a physical presence. What I'm saying is he won't do the work of two men, he'll look after himself but playing him with Santi means he'd need to have the sort of workrate that he doesn't have.Oh yeah? For someone without a physical presence he always has a lot of possession and completed passes as well as won tackles. Sometimes more than the opponent team combined.
@RooneyLegend
Okay, so your aim is apparently to write digs at Cazorla and that whole Xhaka discussion is only a vehicle for that.
Do that if you please, but it's not of any interest to me anymore.
Okay, so your aim is apparently to write digs at Cazorla and that whole Xhaka discussion is only a vehicle for that.
Do that if you please, but it's not of any interest to me anymore.
That is what people think but the problem for me isn't mentality but quality. Every season we go into the season with a unbalanced team. We let problems drag on every year so by the time we solve them another two problems have come up which need resolving. This has been an endless cycle now for years and simply down to lack of investment in our squad. Last season Leicester had a simple style of football and players which fitted that system. We had no distinct style of playing, we couldn't play possession as our players couldn't pass around well enough and not playing counter attacking as our passing was too slow. The CM situation was a dysfunctional as our striking options imo.
Exactly, always sell ourselves short. More than likely to happen again. Not that I agree with Man Utd's approach of paying well over the odds but at least they've got most of their business done early.
I think that is exactly what we were looking for, since Arteta's decline we've been crying out for that kind of a player. Someone who can move the ball quickly and effectively from there. I think the likes of Ramsey, Wilshere and Ozil will do better with him than what we've got. Also our full backs will do better as he does like a long diagonal pass
If Makelele our DM he'd get exposed too. The problem isn't just the players but the system. We leave too much space thus the DM is having to cover a ridiculously large area. That's a fault in our system rather than the player. You don't need someone as good as Makelele defensively, plenty of teams in recent years have done fine with inferior players. If Xhaka is an improvement on Arteta then I'll consider him a top signing.
@JazzG
I agree that it's been a few glaring issues which have never been addressed. But surely mentality, or the lack thereof, has also shown itself as an issue over the years?
I agree that it's been a few glaring issues which have never been addressed. But surely mentality, or the lack thereof, has also shown itself as an issue over the years?
Yep, that's been my point too higher up in this thread. Every player looks defensively suspect when there is no support from the formation as a whole. If Wenger finally gets them to systematically close down spaces and be in the right zones at the right time, this midfield can be class. If not, Xhaka will probably not make that much of a difference.
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He's a bit of a hot head which most of us probably saw in the Bundesliga and if he had started todays match instead of coming off the bench he would have saw a red card imo. But he's still a class player.
Thought it was a weird game to give him his debut.
He is quality though.
He is quality though.
Like Firmino last season I expect him to take his time to get to grips with the league,but reckon he will come good eventually.
Yellow card table topper for sure, the new Tiote.
A prescient echo of the result today?
Hilarious performance today, think he'll prove a good signing though.
This pretty much happened today. The game was frantic and he couldn't handle the pace at all. He seems way too petulant for the reserved, quietly-go-about your business midfielder role he plays.
I had him in my Fantasy Football team for the Bundesliga last season......i don't make the same mistake for the Premier League 
How's he been doing / has he been starting? I haven't caught any Arsenal games this season but I see he's on the bench tonight.
Think he had a dream debut off the bench when all his stats read 'zero'. Read he was good against whoever they beat for their first win in the league. No idea why he is benched.
Think he'll be a starter once Ramsey returns. Wenger seems reluctant to pair him with Cazorla since they both lack power & pace. I told @ThierryHenry and @The Purist
Cheers lads. I had actually forgotten all about him until I saw he was on the bench tonight.Think he'll be a starter once Ramsey returns. Wenger seems reluctant to pair him with Cazorla since they both lack power & pace. I told @ThierryHenry and @The Purist
Shouldn't he be paired with coquelin? That way they have a destroyer and a dictator in midfield?Think he'll be a starter once Ramsey returns. Wenger seems reluctant to pair him with Cazorla since they both lack power & pace. I told @ThierryHenry and @The Purist
Hadn't realised I countered that!Think he'll be a starter once Ramsey returns. Wenger seems reluctant to pair him with Cazorla since they both lack power & pace. I told @ThierryHenry and @The Purist
But you are right, yeah. Though I'm not convinced Ramsey and Xhaka would make the most balanced partnership either. I'd really hope so, but that would require a much more disciplined Ramsey than we've seen the last couple of years.
the guy has completed 90 minutes only once in the league so far. whats up with him?
Doesn't seem to have adapted well. Been underwhelming in the games i've seen.
Xhaka and Mkhitaryan both had quite a bit of clamour about them before they came to England, and both seem to have disappeared (although Xhaka not as much as Mkhi).
He would have been slaughtered on here if he played for us. Called a flop in no time.