Great squad/Average coach or Average squad/Great coach

AshRK

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I was looking at our starting 11 yesterday and the squad in general minus Pogba/Rashford and I was wondering how much would a top coach get out of this squad. I keep hearing how a top manager would make this lot play better football, I am not sure with that assessment. Probably with a better coach we would be in top 3, but that is also not a surety. I know a coach/manager has an important role to play but if a team has top talent with them then I believe even a not so great coach could do well and achieve more.

I know in an ideal world one would love to have both but if given a choice what would you have.
 

Krovv

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Average squad with a great coach because a team should be more than the sum of its parts. Someone who brings the best out of players and makes a strong unit is always likely to appeal more to me than a bunch of superstars coached poorly.

Diego Simeone's Atletico is a classic example of an average squad with a great coach. Not the best to watch but defensively one of the most well-drilled sides in the world. I'd also go so far as to put Klopp's Liverpool from a couple years back in this bracket. Liverpool matches were wild and unpredictable but they were punching above their weight for sure, particularly in Europe.

On the flip side, a great squad with an average coach can also be interesting sometimes. Di Matteo winning the CL with Chelsea comes to mind. :lol:
 

Relevated

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Average squad with a great coach because a team should be more than the sum of its parts. Someone who brings the best out of players and makes a strong unit is always likely to appeal more to me than a bunch of superstars coached poorly.

Diego Simeone's Atletico is a classic example of an average squad with a great coach. Not the best to watch but defensively one of the most well-drilled sides in the world. I'd also go so far as to put Klopp's Liverpool from a couple years back in this bracket. Liverpool matches were wild and unpredictable but they were punching above their weight for sure, particularly in Europe.

On the flip side, a great squad with an average coach can also be interesting sometimes. Di Matteo winning the CL with Chelsea comes to mind. :lol:
Or it can be moyes united.
 

gerdm07

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Why can't it be something in between?
 

AshRK

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Average squad, great coach.

Look at Liverpool.
Liverpool don't have a world class squad but they have a great starting 11. I wouldn't say they have an average squad. Now I would credit Klopp for that as he helped the likes of Firminio, Robertson, Trent, Henderson reach that level. But on paper i still think they have a much better squad than us.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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A squad suited for the manager and the opposite. Synergy can be cery important and having everyone playing at their wavelenght and level in harmony.
 

ash_86

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I'd take a quality side because great coaches don't grow on trees. Keeping quality squad is very important if we want to compete year in year out irrespective of who's managing us.
 

romufc

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Average squad, great coach.

Look at Liverpool.
Average squad?

Allison - top 3 keepers in the world
Trent - best RB in the world
Robbo - top 3 LB in the world
VVD- Best Cb in the world
Gomez - One of the most promising CB's around

Fabinho - Best CDM in the PL
Gini / Hendo / Keita / Ox / Milner - Good rotation options / captain / Leaders

Front 3 - Best front 3 in the world

If that is an average squad what is the following?

DDG - Past his best
AWB - One of the best defensive RB
Lindelof - Meh
Maguire - top 10 CB in the world
Shaw - Meh
McTominay / Fred / Matic - Okay rotation
Pogba - Virus
Rashford - Inconsistent
Martial - Inconsistent
James - Inconsistent
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Neither.

Average squad + average manager, perhaps even below average on both counts. Both need upgrading in the summer.
 

Canagel

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Great squad average coach because it's far easier to rectify.
 

stepic

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Average squad?

Allison - top 3 keepers in the world
Trent - best RB in the world
Robbo - top 3 LB in the world
VVD- Best Cb in the world
Gomez - One of the most promising CB's around

Fabinho - Best CDM in the PL
Gini / Hendo / Keita / Ox / Milner - Good rotation options / captain / Leaders

Front 3 - Best front 3 in the world

If that is an average squad what is the following?

DDG - Past his best
AWB - One of the best defensive RB
Lindelof - Meh
Maguire - top 10 CB in the world
Shaw - Meh
McTominay / Fred / Matic - Okay rotation
Pogba - Virus
Rashford - Inconsistent
Martial - Inconsistent
James - Inconsistent
exactly :lol:

Liverpool do not have an average squad. their midfield isn't the best but they have a great keeper, defence and a brilliant attack.
 

AshRK

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I'd take a quality side because great coaches don't grow on trees. Keeping quality squad is very important if we want to compete year in year out irrespective of who's managing us.
That's what even I think. If you have top talents across the pitch then success will come automatically irrespective of who the coach is.
 

Denis79

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exactly :lol:

Liverpool do not have an average squad. their midfield isn't the best but they have a great keeper, defence and a brilliant attack.
Would you say that they all were world-class before or after joining Liverpool and Klopp?
 

Mainoldo

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exactly :lol:

Liverpool do not have an average squad. their midfield isn't the best but they have a great keeper, defence and a brilliant attack.
They have 3 class players. Everyone else is okay and if they weren’t managed by a great manager would not be looking as good.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Think of it this way...

Would you rather be watching -

A. Bournemouth coached by Guardiola

B. Man City coached by Moyes / Solskjaer

Genuine question and probably the best way to view this debate.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Would you say that they all were world-class before or after joining Liverpool and Klopp?
Exactly. None of then were close to WC when they signed. Salah was a Chelsea reject, Mane came from Soton and Firmino was thought of as a joke when he left Germany. Henderson has always been laughed at. Gigi came from Newcastle. Robertson from Hull. Two were promoted from the academy. Another defender from Soton. See where its going? Klopp bought decent to good players and has tranformed then into a world class team. I reckon most of them wouldnt be as good in different teams and set ups.
 

AshRK

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Think of it this way...

Would you rather be watching -

A. Bournemouth coached by Guardiola

B. Man City coached by Moyes / Solskjaer

Genuine question and probably the best way to view this debate.
Well put. I would still fancy Man city coached by Moyes. :houllier:
 

Smores

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The former is obviously much more expensive and makes performances vulnerable to players leaving/injuries.

Giving an average manager enough money to win a title might work for a short while but it won't be lasting.

However is it easier to get a great manager or buy a great squad? Probably the latter
 

flappyjay

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Great squad for me. Had Sir Alex been an average manager with a great squad we wouldn't have suffered so much. Look at Barca for instance average managers like Enrique won a ucl with the whilst the likes of Valverde won la Liga.
 

JPRouve

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It depends a lot on what you mean by great and average squad, does:
2012/2013 United + SAF qualifies as an average squad with a great manager. While 2016/2017 Barcelona +Valverde qualifies as a great team with an average manager.

I would take SAF with an average squad over most great squads and an average manager because SAF gives me more chances to see the team improve through training or transfers while the average manager guarantees regression or stagnation and if you don't start from a position where you are literally the best the second scenario gives you no present and no future.
 

Amir

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That's what even I think. If you have top talents across the pitch then success will come automatically irrespective of who the coach is.
That, quite frankly, is not true. Not saying a good but not brilliant coach cannot do well with a great squad, but even the best squads can be easiy mis-managed by the wrong guy. Success is certainly never automtic.
 

stepic

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Would you say that they all were world-class before or after joining Liverpool and Klopp?
no. but Revelated's post implies that they currently still are an average squad, and are only performing well collectively because of Klopp. certainly Klopp has helped make some of those players better, but it's wrong to label that squad as 'average'. it's not. Salah, Mane, VVD, Trent, Allison are all WC.
 

stepic

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They have 3 class players. Everyone else is okay and if they weren’t managed by a great manager would not be looking as good.
they have more than 3 class players. Allison, VVD, Trent, Robertson, Fabinho, Salah, Mane, and Firmino are all class.
 

Chipper

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Great squad by a mile.

That's assuming you actually mean great and average. Something like United 07/08 squad with Eddie Howe, vs Burnley 19/20 with Fergie. Fergie isn't winning that.
 

lysglimt

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That's not what OP is asking. He's asking if you'd rather have an average squad and a great coach or a great squad and an average coach.
Anyone saying they would rather have a great coach and an average squad are stupid. If you lose the coach you have nothing.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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That's not what OP is asking. He's asking if you'd rather have an average squad and a great coach or a great squad and an average coach.

Ummmm. I'd say the latter, because an average guy like Ole who relies upon individual brilliance would benefit from having brilliant individuals. But neither is ideal.

Actually, scratch that - I don't see either as being more appealing than the other really; both are the same.
 

Bobcat

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Well if you want success, great squad obviously. Just look at City. Mancini and Pellegrini are hardly the best coaches around, yet both of them won the league and played pretty good football whilst doing so.

And the current Liverpool team is hardly average. No doubt Klopp is a great coach, but their first XI is pretty damn good and their squad options are solid as well. Think people have been a bit fooled by how little they have spent. They have done some great business the last few years and have built a great team with pretty modest investment
 

Tom Cato

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I'll throw a fireball into this:

Coaches matter very little, it's mostly down to the players.
 

tjb

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Chelsea 2008 prove Great squad/Average Coach is clearly better. PSG have had loads of them. With a great squad you can guarantee a top 4 finish. With a great coach you can push one or two positions up. For me its like Formula 1, would you rather have a Mercedes or Lewis Hamilton. If I replace Hamilton with an average driver, I could still win the championship due to the superiority of the car. If I put Lewis Hamilton in a poor car, I would get Fernando Alonso.
 

Denis79

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no. but Revelated's post implies that they currently still are an average squad, and are only performing well collectively because of Klopp. certainly Klopp has helped make some of those players better, but it's wrong to label that squad as 'average'. it's not. Salah, Mane, VVD, Trent, Allison are all WC.
A good coach makes players better, a great coach can make them great or even WC. That's exactly what Klopp has done. Nagelsmann is doing similar things at Leipzig.

Firminho, Salah, Mane, VVD etc are all significantly better under Klopp than in their previous club. I would even argue that none of them were considered WC before the "Klopp effect". They had the talent, we know that now but Klopp brought it out of them through tactics, coaching and motivation.
 

shaky

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Gary Neville could have won Zidane's 3 CL league titles in a row with that Madrid squad. Also, what makes a great coach? Pep was regarded as by far the best in the world not long ago, but he'd never had anything other than the best squad in his league, so how do we tell what the main factor was? Was it Pep or was it his players? His squad maybe isn't the best in the league for the first time ever and they're miles off the pace.