Considering we are getting differ opinions so yes it is open to be debated.
But yes given the choice even I would go with Great squad and average coach.
Great squad/Average coach or Average squad/Great coach
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
But yes given the choice even I would go with Great squad and average coach.
Klopp, SAF in 2011 that team that got to the CL final was average, even Pep yes he had WC players at Barca and City, but he got the best out of them probably better then another manager could have and at City he’s developed the players he signed / inherited
That's not saying a lot
In a one off match you'd prefer an average squad and a great coach, but over a season you'd prefer a great squad and an average coach. Now if he was a player-coach ....
What Fergie did to Arsenal, in the FA cup games? Come on!That's not saying a lot
In a one off match you'd prefer an average squad and a great coach, but over a season you'd prefer a great squad and an average coach. Now if he was a player-coach ....
I'm mildly amused scouring through this thread and reading people calling the squads of Liverpool or Atletico "average" I wonder who qualifies as having a great squad then?
Eh? That's a great example of what i'm saying, surely?
Great squad, average coach. With exceptional players success will come.
Does anyone believe that Mancini and Pellegrini are among the best managers in the history of English football? Both have won the Premier League. Does anyone believe Luis Enrique is as good as Guardiola at coaching? Both have won the Treble. With great players you only need a decent coach to keep winning titles. Now Valverde has been fired by Barcelona is anyone expecting him to turn up at a top club again? No. Won the league with them though. Messi will do that.
Contrast this with Pep, who everyone believes is a genius (myself included). Couldn't do it with even very good players like Kolarov and Jovetic. Klopp, another excellent coach, wasn't winning squat without adding Alison and Van Dijk to his set up. A great coach can do many things but he cannot turn crap into gold. No matter how good a coach he is Klopp wasn't going to turn Karius and Lovren into title winning players. Having a top, top squad is far more important than having a top, top manager.
Does anyone believe that Mancini and Pellegrini are among the best managers in the history of English football? Both have won the Premier League. Does anyone believe Luis Enrique is as good as Guardiola at coaching? Both have won the Treble. With great players you only need a decent coach to keep winning titles. Now Valverde has been fired by Barcelona is anyone expecting him to turn up at a top club again? No. Won the league with them though. Messi will do that.
Contrast this with Pep, who everyone believes is a genius (myself included). Couldn't do it with even very good players like Kolarov and Jovetic. Klopp, another excellent coach, wasn't winning squat without adding Alison and Van Dijk to his set up. A great coach can do many things but he cannot turn crap into gold. No matter how good a coach he is Klopp wasn't going to turn Karius and Lovren into title winning players. Having a top, top squad is far more important than having a top, top manager.
Agree with most of what you say here but with following reservations. It was Klopp who turned Liverpool into a great squad by adding VVD and Allison. He knew who to buy in order to convert the squad from good to great and it still took time. He has also bought a some poor players as well, especially keepers, who are now mostly forgotten. He needs to win a few more titles before he assumes the mantle of greatness. We have not had a good squad since SAF retired, even his final title winning season was not a good squad but was dragged over the line by his pure determination.
SAF was also very wise or very lucky to have such success by throwing in a group of youngsters and buying Eric Cantona to form his first great squad. Something which will never be repeated in my view.
In answer to original post question I would say we have a mediocre squad and a mediocre manager at best.
Regarding that Liverpool squad, I'd argue that they are being evaluated on the results they are achieving rather than individual quality. None of the players were this highly rated before Liverpool won the CL and had this amazing season. And like many of Klopp's players at Dortmund, I doubt they would play to the same level if they moved elsewhere.
To answer the OP, I'd take a top coach who could implement a method that gets the most out of his players, while also being able to identify players that suit his style of play and add a lot to the team without necessarily being Galacticos. The relative failure of the original galacticos a RM shows that having quality without a vision or clear philosophy does not achieve results.
This has been a freak season for everyone with most smaller clubs (ex Wolves, Everton, Leicester) having better managers then the traditionally big clubs (United, Chelsea and Arsenal). This lead to a freak EPL league table were smaller clubs are punching above their weight, bigger clubs are losing points with nobodies etc.
In terms of United we've got a very average side with a rubbish manager to manage it.
In terms of United we've got a very average side with a rubbish manager to manage it.
I'll tell you what happened if Gaz lead Real Madrid in their prime. The players will laugh at him cause let's face it, he is a nobody with an obsolete idea about football and was never world class to start with. Eventually they will stop listening to him, then he will lose his temper, he'll ask for a radical change in the team so he can bring in his 'honest & hardworking players' which would then lead to him getting the sack cause its far easier to replace a manager then a team. Finally he'll end up on sky football again lamenting about why Real couldn't agree with his 7 year plan.
These days man management is a big big part of football. Which is why great tacticians with zero man management like Bielsa, LVG and Mourinho are struggling. Its fascinating how United fans ignores that considering that we had the best man manager in football history.
Well, but since the question posted was mutually exclusive that would be having your cake and eating it too. Everyone in here agrees Klopp is a very good coach, but he's replaced pretty much the entire starting XI from when he started and got rid of Donkeys like Lovren and Benteke.
To put it this way, if Klopp was not allowed to buy a single player and had to make do with the team he inherited he would not have accomplished much
If you think about what average and great squad really means respectively you'd always have to pick that option.
A great squad would not just equate to stockpiled world class talent, but rather a tightly knit group of players with great chemistry between them, a good mix of experienced leaders and hungry talented youngsters, all of whom share high degrees of professionalism and determination.
So basically you would have to choose between one great personality leading 20-30 average ones or 20-30 great personalities being led by an average one. Would it really be an option to pick the former?
Maybe there could be made an argument that a truly terrible manager displaying yet unseen levels incompetence might ruin the chemistry of even the greatest of teams but this argument is about an "average" manager.
And on the flipside if you had a truly terrible and unprofessional squad even the greatest manager of all time would struggle to bring anything resembling a performance onto a pitch.
Obviously it's a great thing to watch a single person transform a club/team to make it become much more than a sum of its parts in heroic fashion (except when it's Klopp transforming your rivals team obviously...).
That's probably why this is even up for debate - people always prefer the story of one hero over the story of 30 heroes, it's how heroic stories have been told since the biblical times because for our brain it's easier brain it's easier to empathize with one person rather than 30, it's how our mind works...
A great squad would not just equate to stockpiled world class talent, but rather a tightly knit group of players with great chemistry between them, a good mix of experienced leaders and hungry talented youngsters, all of whom share high degrees of professionalism and determination.
So basically you would have to choose between one great personality leading 20-30 average ones or 20-30 great personalities being led by an average one. Would it really be an option to pick the former?
Maybe there could be made an argument that a truly terrible manager displaying yet unseen levels incompetence might ruin the chemistry of even the greatest of teams but this argument is about an "average" manager.
And on the flipside if you had a truly terrible and unprofessional squad even the greatest manager of all time would struggle to bring anything resembling a performance onto a pitch.
Obviously it's a great thing to watch a single person transform a club/team to make it become much more than a sum of its parts in heroic fashion (except when it's Klopp transforming your rivals team obviously...).
That's probably why this is even up for debate - people always prefer the story of one hero over the story of 30 heroes, it's how heroic stories have been told since the biblical times because for our brain it's easier brain it's easier to empathize with one person rather than 30, it's how our mind works...
Yes you are right. What I was saying was Klopp had already transformed Liverpool to a good squad by purchasing the likes of Mane, Salah, and Wijnaldem plus calling up very capable youngsters. This team was unrecognisable from the one he inherited but the signings of VVD and Alison transformed them to being a great team, along with the transformation of Henderson and of course this all took time. They are now the best team the Prem has ever had in some people’s eyes but I think they will have to remain consistent for years to come and overcome the natural wastage as players grow older and are replaced. Then Klopp will be a great coach but he’s not doing bad at present and I think they will finish the season undefeated and could go to the E.C. final again.
League great coach, average squad. Cups average coach, great squad.
The man who can get the best out of any AVAILABLE 11 (or thin squad) is Big Sam, the best in the Century. Do you rate him a great coach? If you currently sit at #18 then yes, but what happen to him as soon as the club is safe?
Their midfield is an exceptionally well drilled and dynamic engine that perfectly compliments their marauding full backs and front three. To be fair it's probably, well, it's proven to be the perfect balance. Throw too much flair into that midfield and holes may start appearing.exactly
Liverpool do not have an average squad. their midfield isn't the best but they have a great keeper, defence and a brilliant attack.
Back to the OP and I feel that we're average squad, average manager. Both circa 6.5/10 for requirements.
I feel Ole is doing well with his behind the scenes handling of the role with reshaping the squad according to the new philosophy, the media, relationships with the players; part of which arguably comes from his status here and his character. These combined though, are a very necessary factor that not every manager would have handled similarly.
Where I feel he remains average is in what I would consider the detail. All this time later and I feel like he's still tinkering about chopping and changing, still uncertain as to what he wants out of the squad. If he is certain then that's damning because what tangible successful patterns of play are we seeing beyond 'out you go lads, wings, pace, what will be will be'? Telling Martial for 18 months to 'get into the box' is not enough; drill that, the shape, the runs, the passing patterns. We veer wildly from one game to the next in (in)coherence between our front line. One minute there's no one in the box, sometimes just one; yet regardless if one or more never making dynamic runs or getting into goalscoring positions. Not great coaching evidence coming from an ex poacher.
Set pieces....damn we're poor. Pace of play in first halves...absolutely perplexing. It all feels very Que Sera Sera.
Management 8.5/10
Coaching 5/10
Maybe I'm being harsh. Maybe in 5 years a lot of us will be proven very wrong, as Solskjaer makes us certain top 3 year in year out, having won a league, cups, and making CL quarters and semi's once more. Hopefully so. But momentum must be built upon and as ever...this summer is a very important one.