"Great teams are built from the back"

[SmashedHombre]

How much truth is there in this? Because I believe this was a motto SAF had and is something that generally rings true in football. I also suspect it is a mantra Ole is following- that the building of all great teams starts at the back (and takes time).

05/06 was the start of one of SA's greatest rebuilds, when we signed Vidic, Evra and VDS. The next season we signed Carrick, before effectively completing the rebuild with Anderson, Nani, Tevez & Hargreaves.

I know a lot of people were peeved at our transfer dealings, but (and I know this has been said a zillion times already) I really believe this is the start of United's rebuild. Previous transfer windows have seemed a bit square peg, round hole. Sign any talent that is available. I think, by focusing on the defence first and foremost (and hopefully signing DDG to a long term contract) it suggests Ole has a long term vision that he knows it will take time to complete.

The Maguire and AWB signings are eerily similar to the Vidic and Evra signings. Having lost the last three leagues (03-06), Sir Alex rebuilt his next great team and went on to win 3 on the trot- and it all started with signing two solid defenders. Obviously I'm not expecting us to win 3 in a row, just that there are a lot of positives to take from this window.

 

[afrocentricity]

How much truth is there in this? Because I believe this was a motto SAF had and is something that generally rings true in football. I also suspect it is a mantra Ole is following- that the building of all great teams starts at the back (and takes time).
Good post.

05/06 was the start of one of SA's greatest rebuilds, when we signed Vidic, Evra and VDS. The next season we signed Carrick, before effectively completing the rebuild with Anderson, Nani, Tevez & Hargreaves.

I know a lot of people were peeved at our transfer dealings, but (and I know this has been said a zillion times already) I really believe this is the start of United's rebuild. Previous transfer windows have seemed a bit square peg, round hole. Sign any talent that is available. I think, by focusing on the defence first and foremost (and hopefully signing DDG to a long term contract) it suggests Ole has a long term vision that he knows it will take time to complete.

The Maguire and AWB signings are eerily similar to the Vidic and Evra signings. Having lost the last three leagues (03-06), Sir Alex rebuilt his next great team and went on to win 3 on the trot- and it all started with signing two solid defenders. Obviously I'm not expecting us to win 3 in a row, just that there are a lot of positives to take from this window.

Good post.

 

[Adisa]

I think it's a myth. The top two teams in England were scoring for fun before they sorted out their defence.

 

[duffer]

How much truth is there in this?

Not much.

The first Jose Chelsea side was built through "the spine" (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba), the great Barca side was based around Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

 

[Bestietom]

I do believe a great team needs a very good defence, but the heartbeat of every great team is their midfield. I hope Ole adresses this next, starting in January. We need to find that player that he often mentions ( Robbo Type player) and have him ready to come in at the turn of the year. He will be then bedded in for next season, and probably help us get top 4 if we are still in the running.

 

[Sereques]

Yes it’s correct. With a solid back 4, you can see the deficiencies of the team more clearly. For example, last season Young gave almost every pass away, we couldn’t build from the back and the manager ideas cannot be executed properly.

With a strong back 4, the rest of the team is relaxed and they can play to their potential because they know even if they give the away, no harm will be done.

Attack win games, defense win championships .

 

[032Devil]

This will only work IF Ole is given time (in years), to rebuild. That however, will depend on his success this season. The team must show improvement and that will earn him time.

 

[Sereques]

I do believe a great team needs a very good defence, but the heartbeat of every great team is their midfield. I hope Ole adresses this next, starting in January. We need to find that player that he often mentions ( Robbo Type player) and have him ready to come in at the turn of the year. He will be then bedded in for next season, and probably help us get top 4 if we are still in the running.

No matter how good your midfield is, if the defense is crap, your team is bang average. Why do you think Pep has spent so much on City’s defense?

 

[Sereques]

This will only work IF Ole is given time (in years), to rebuild. That however, will depend on his success this season. The team must show improvement and that will earn him time.

There was a report that said they will be more patient with Ole than any of the previous managers. They love Ole ideas and they’re changing everything for him.

 

[Black Adder]

Not much.

The first Jose Chelsea side was built through "the spine" (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba), the great Barca side was based around Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

Yep, but having great defence helps. Terry and Carvalho were brilliant as a partership, don't think Chelsea would have that much of domestic domination if there were lesser players in defence. Also that Barca team had Pique-Puyol defence, hardly Smalling-Jones combo.

 

[Lord Megadrive]

I think it's a myth. The top two teams in England were scoring for fun before they sorted out their defence.

I think those two would be considered outliers though, historically when you look at the best teams the foundation is a solid defence, famously (I know it’s a different era) but Keegan set his Newcastle teams to score more than the opposition and look what happened didn’t win the league. Blackburn were hard to beat first but then they had Shearer and Sutton to get the goal needed to win. When you look at our best sides the defence is always something that can be relied upon when the forwards fall out of form. You need a good defence to win the league. Even pep bought more defenders in his first two seasons iirc

 

[Di Maria's angel]

City won the league with a pretty okish defence two years ago. Our league wins in 10/11 and 12/13 were with aged and crappy defences. Think I agree with @duffer its not really a important standalone factor.

 

[Random Task]

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

True enough.

But I think in Ole's case, ripping up and rebuilding from the back seems like the logical solution at this point. It certainly looks like that is his plan anyway.

 

[Treble]

Not much.

The first Jose Chelsea side was built through "the spine" (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba), the great Barca side was based around Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

This.

There is no magic formula of rebuilding. The key element is the manager. If he knows what he is doing, he will sign the right players as well, be it in attack or defence.

People are too fixated on individuals. You add two quality defenders and defence is sorted. It doesn't work like that. Quality defenders are half of the solution, the other half is provided by the overall organisation of the team and the balance between attack and defence.

 

[duffer]

Yep, but having great defence helps. Terry and Carvalho were brilliant as a partership, don't think Chelsea would have that much of domestic domination if there were lesser players in defence. Also that Barca team had Pique-Puyol defence, hardly Smalling-Jones combo.

Of course it helps but this thread is about whether or not you need to get the defence sorted first and that's not the case (Pep for example is still spunking shitloads trying to sort his!).

Also, that Chelsea defence had Glen Johnson and Paolo Ferreria in it. Good players but great? I don't think so. That side was as good as it was because of the system, the manager and the collective squad, not the back 4.

 

[Kill 'em all]

Having an attack good enough that overwhelms your opponents defense for me is just as good. Your opponent will keep dropping back and pose no danger except from the occasional counter.

 

[RyRy11]

The defence is more important than ever now in the modern game. Most of the top teams can build their play from the back and are adept at dealing with the opposing teams press by passing through the channels. With the signings we’ve made means that we hopefully won’t see Young and Smalling miss 9/10 forward passes for 30 games a season. It at least gives us a fighting chance to improve as a team.

 

[Chairman Steve]

There’s probably some merit in it. A good defence means the midfield and attack can focus on what they should be doing and not have to track back to help defend excessively... something that happened a little too much under LVG and Jose.

 

[arthurka]

City won the league with a pretty okish defence two years ago. Our league wins in 10/11 and 12/13 were with aged and crappy defences. Think I agree with @duffer its not really a important standalone factor.

They were all in their prime apart from Ferdinand who was around 32 at the time. But at the same time a well drilled and fluid unit.

 

[Treble]

The defence is more important than ever now in the modern game. Most of the top teams can build their play from the back and are adept at dealing with the opposing teams press by passing through the channels. With the signings we’ve made means that we hopefully won’t see Young and Smalling miss 9/10 forward passes for 30 games a season. It at least gives us a fighting chance to improve as a team.

Real conceded a shitload of goals while winning 3 CL titles in a row. If anything, the attack is more important than ever. Any of the top teams has top forwards.

 

[M Bison]

They were all in their prime apart from Ferdinand who was around 32 at the time. But at the same time a well drilled and fluid unit.

And 32 is still prime (albeit tail end) for a CB

 

[Ace of Spades]

I think it's a myth. The top two teams in England were scoring for fun before they sorted out their defence.

Liverpool won nothing with all those goals until they sorted their defence, and barely got top 4 the year before last. City have spent ridiculous amounts on the defence, even more than their attack. Pep finished third in his first year with the defence he had until he changed it to suit his style. Our goal scoring need to improve, but our defence was very bad.

It certainly is not a myth, attack wins you games, but defence wins you titles.

 

[SilentWitness]

Liverpool only started to look really good once the defence of Robertson/Dijk/*Insert Other*/TAA were settled.

City looked a bit shaky at the start last year but once the defence of Zinchenko/Laporte/*Insert Other*/Walker were settled and there was a solid basis they were great again.

I do think there's something in it.

 

[Black Adder]

Of course it helps but this thread is about whether or not you need to get the defence sorted first and that's not the case (Pep for example is still spunking shitloads trying to sort his!).

Also, that Chelsea defence had Glen Johnson and Paolo Ferreria in it. Good players but great? I don't think so. That side was as good as it was because of the system, the manager and the collective squad, not the back 4.

Always had a feeling Jose first sorted that defence then the rest of the team, since he bought both Cech and Carvalho when he first came. But yeah, you had Gallas and Bridge back than also, A. Cole came later.

But Pep built his first Barcelona side with going from defence. He already had Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Etoo, Henry in the team, but with buying Alves and Pique he made sure that defence is on par with the rest of the team.

 

[Treble]

Liverpool won nothing with all those goals until they sorted their defence, and barely got top 4 the year before last. City have spent ridiculous amounts on the defence, even more than their attack. Pep finished third in his first year with the defence he had until he changed it to suit his style. Our goal scoring need to improve, but our defence was very bad.

It certainly is not a myth, attack wins you games, but defence wins you titles.

The point wasn't whether you need a good defence but whether you start the building of a great team from the defence. Which wasn't the case with both City and Liverpool. They had top attackers before sorting their defence.

This clichee about defence and attack is just that. It's only partially true. Liverpool's great defence didn't win them the title last season. And for our last PL title we conceded many goals (over 40?).

 

[TheReligion]

Not much.

The first Jose Chelsea side was built through "the spine" (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba), the great Barca side was based around Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

Was it not built around Cech Terry and Carvaliho?

Or was Carvaliho later

 

[Treble]

Surprisingly, the teams with most clean sheets in 2019 are City and...Everton. The latter are not known for their brilliant defenders but seem to have a very good defensive organisation.

 

[Raven96__]

Very true in my opinion, you need a great defense to win trophies, its simple, if you have a great set of forwards but bad defense you wont win anything, your great set of forwards wont be at their best everytime.

You build a solid back to ensure the talent you have around the pitch from midfielders to attackers can express themselves and win you the game.

Mentally, it helps a lot too, when the forwards and midfielders and GK know you have a decent defense.

 

[duffer]

Was it not built around Cech Terry and Carvaliho?

Or was Carvaliho later

I would argue that Drogba, Lampard and Makalele were significantly more important than Carvalho to that Chelsea side. Take Drogba out of the team and playing against us was a totally different thing.

Our defence was excellent but that's not the point of the thread; "the building of all great teams starts at the back".

 

[Ole’s Wheel]

I think it's a myth. The top two teams in England were scoring for fun before they sorted out their defence.

Pretty much this.

You don’t need a world class defense, just one that gets the job done and is above average. Game has evolved a lot since SAF with attacking FBs and such meaning less emphasis on a destroyer backfield and trying to balance it in terms of attack+defense.

However, I do agree that United seem to have the backline sorted. Looks great on paper. Here’s to hoping it holds up on the field; if so it’ll be a long awaited sight!

 

[Treble]

I'd say the building of a great team starts with manager's vision. That is, it starts with a great manager (not necessarily a proven one for proven managers might be a bit past it as we saw with LVG and Mourinho).

 

[JPRouve]

Not much.

The first Jose Chelsea side was built through "the spine" (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba), the great Barca side was based around Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Great teams are sometimes built from the back but there's no rule or even a trend to suggest this is the case.

No Makélélé? You are dead to me.

Otherwise I agree, great teams are simply great at something and generally good at the rest. Klopp built his Liverpool team around the front three, everything is done to allow them to be free to do what they excel at.

 

[izec]

You need to have great players all over the pitch. Doesnt matter where you start

 

[duffer]

No Makélélé? You are dead to me.

It's too complicated to get all the squiggles above the letters.

 

[Devilsrock7]

Great sides have a solid defense but of course it just complements other areas .
Liverpool struggled with this before shoring up defensive frailties , I believe United have addressed than now with Wan -bissaka and Maguire coming in , however we need our midfield to perform .

Have we got the quality ? many posters here think not with Matic too slow etc , hopefully Mctominay , Fred etc can step up , Pogba is quality when he applies himself.

I believe our defense when they gel can be so Important to our attacking options and I'm sure McGuire can chip in with a few goals as well as being able to bring ball out of defense and supply our creative players .

 

[Gasolin]

It's too complicated to get all the squiggles above the letters.

At least put the name without the accents then...

 

[duffer]

At least put the name without the accents then...

Like this?

I would argue that Drogba, Lampard and Makalele were significantly more important than Carvalho to that Chelsea side.

 

[Kevin_]

Great post definitely lot of truth to this.

 

[Slevs]

In Fergie's book he says he always wanted 2 very good CBs for stability.

 

[Adamsk7]

I read something interesting recently about Defenders and the high press.

As the game has evolved in to the more aggressive, high press style (including the evolution of “Forwards” rather than Strikers), Defenders and Midfielders are under more pressure than ever to be great at finding or creating space and distributing the ball quickly and safely.

we’ve been up against these teams with defenders that were plain terrible at these things - they would often panic when getting the ball either from De Gea or back from a Midfielder and would then lump it forward or play a hospital ball to someone else.

this caused our Midfield to come deeper to get the ball, De Gea to play riskier passes through the Defence to the Midfield and almost nobody in our half was able to receive the ball in any space.

Now we have a back 4 who are all ballers, the attacking opposition won’t target any one player in particular to close down like they have in the past (for instance in a Lindelof - Smalling partnership you’d close down Lindelof so Smalling would get the ball or Young).