Greenwood or Martinelli

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
That's great logic. Because overhyped Arsenal youngsters didn't make it in the past, any Arsenal youngster showing potential now is exactly the same.
Where did I say that? At some point, an Arsenal youngster will eventually live up to the hype. Has to happen eventually, right?Meanwhile, many more will fall by the wayside.
 

Mogget

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He is overachieving his xG in EPL tmes 3.33, he should have 2.4 goals instead of 8 let that sink in. So he's not scoring tap ins but low chance goals.

For reference the best next player is KDB overachieving times 1.62
I saw that article. The top scorers in the league (Vardy, Aubameyang, and Ings) are all overachieving their xG by about 1.4 times, so it's fair to say Greenwood is definitely going through a purple patch.
 

Mogget

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Where did I say that? At some point, an Arsenal youngster will eventually live up to the hype. Has to happen eventually, right?Meanwhile, many more will fall by the wayside.
No doubt, but this is a thread comparing Greenwood to Martinelli so it's a bit strange that you're bringing up past failed Arsenal youngsters unless you think it's relevant to the comparison.
 

SAFMUTD

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I saw that article. The top scorers in the league (Vardy, Aubameyang, and Ings) are all overachieving their xG by about 1.4 times, so it's fair to say Greenwood is definitely going through a purple patch.
Yes I dont think anyone can maintain such a high standard on the long run, but just shows how good he's been capitalizing his chances. If he can maintain even half of what he's achieving we'll have a worldclass player in our hands.
 

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
No doubt, but this is a thread comparing Greenwood to Martinelli so it's a bit strange that you're bringing up past failed Arsenal youngsters unless you think it's relevant to the comparison.
It’s definitely relevant. This whole thread is about how likely two young footballers are to fulfil their hype/potential. Are we supposed to ignore the track record the clubs they play for have at helping youngsters fulfil their potential?
 

neverdie

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He is overachieving his xG in EPL tmes 3.33, he should have 2.4 goals instead of 8 let that sink in.
I think he'll finish on 17.769 goals this season.

No, xG is a terrible statistic and uninspiring way of looking at a sport.

Anyone with eyes who's watched football long enough knows there's no comparison to be made and you don't need a calculator..
 

SAFMUTD

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I think he'll finish on 17.769 goals this season.

No, xG is a terrible statistic and uninspiring way of looking at a sport.

Anyone with eyes who's watched football long enough knows there's no comparison to be made and you don't need a calculator..
Actually its a great stat to meassure how clinical a player is, is not about if he's better or not because it doesnt include overall position and the ability to be involved in the chance, but regarding finishing skills is as good as it gets.
 

Ødegaard

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Martinelli who?
Googled him and saw he was at Arsenal. Haven't noticed him at all. What kind of player is he?
 

cyberman

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Actually its a great stat to meassure how clinical a player is, is not about if he's better or not because it doesnt include overall position and the ability to be involved in the chance, but regarding finishing skills is as good as it gets.
Na, Greenwood could be an anomoly. His style of backing defenders up to get his shot away early wouldn't register as a big chance but thats exactly what he plays for.
I cant see how you can quantify his unnerving ability to find any corner from any angle with expecting him to score an easy chance.
 

SAFMUTD

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I think he'll finish on 17.769 goals this season.

No, xG is a terrible statistic and uninspiring way of looking at a sport.

Anyone with eyes who's watched football long enough knows there's no comparison to be made and you don't need a calculator..
Actually its a great stat to meassure how clinical a player is, is not about if he's better or not because it doesnt include overall position and the ability to be involved in the chance, but regarding finishing skills is as good as it gets.
 

Bilbo

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Loads of my mates are Arsenal, and honestly over the last 20 years I've just become numb of listening to the 'we've got some cracking players coming through' hype from them. I've heard it all. None of them ever make it. Martinelli looks like he has a chance though, and Saka is a prospect.

Time will tell. Arsenal have stagnated as a club, so even if these lot do make it there's a high probability of them being picked off sooner rather than later.
 

NinjaFletch

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Most clubs (with ambitions of CL football) find it difficult to get their best young players established as regular first team players but Arsenal seem to consistently have the biggest gap between hype and reality when it comes to the careers of their best young players. Maybe it’s because the football media is so London-centric? It’s definitely a thing anyway.

Who was the last Arsenal youngster to come close to fulfilling his potential for them anyway? Hector Bellerin? I can’t think of anyone else. And we’ve been hearing about how incredible Arsenal youth team players are since forever. Every year it seems they would smash someone in the Carling Cup with a bunch of teenagers and the hype machine would go crazy. Martinelli just seems like the latest of many.

Yes, their record is dire and has been for a long time. Spent some time looking this up during one of their games and its an atrocious list:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-arsenal/jugendarbeit/verein/11

Other than Bellerin the only other 'successes' are Iwobi and Gnarby was handled so badly he fecked off first chance he got. Hayden's made himself a decent Premier League player and done ok, and a few others have churned out ok lower league careers but you have to go back 9 years to even get Wilshere or Coquelin levels of player.

In fact, it's so dire that Saka and Willock have already comparatively 'made it'.
 

Che Guevara

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It’s definitely relevant. This whole thread is about how likely two young footballers are to fulfil their hype/potential. Are we supposed to ignore the track record the clubs they play for have at helping youngsters fulfil their potential?
In football, it's impossible to tell which teenager will be a star and which one will flop. English football is awash with players who were brilliant teenagers but monumental flops later, and vice versa. Personally l like and highly rate both kids and hope they flourish long term in the PL and internationally. However, this debate is pure banter and speculation which will only be settled at least five years from now. Having said that, you sound more like someone hoping and wishing that Martinelli flops, I'm sure you wd hate to see a player rejected by United flourishing elsewhere.
 

Mogget

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Yes, their record is dire and has been for a long time. Spent some time looking this up during one of their games and its an atrocious list:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-arsenal/jugendarbeit/verein/11

Other than Bellerin the only other 'successes' are Iwobi and Gnarby was handled so badly he fecked off first chance he got. Hayden's made himself a decent Premier League player and done ok, and a few others have churned out ok lower league careers but you have to go back 9 years to even get Wilshere or Coquelin levels of player.

In fact, it's so dire that Saka and Willock have already comparatively 'made it'.
Hang on, what point exactly do you and @Pogue Mahone think you're making? I don't know any Arsenal fan who thinks we have an amazing youth system, and looking at that list the only two players we've been really excited about in recent years were Bellerin and Wilshere.

There definitely wasn't any "hype machine" going crazy about the majority of the names on that list.
 

NinjaFletch

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Hang on, what point exactly do you and @Pogue Mahone think you're making? I don't know any Arsenal fan who thinks we have an amazing youth system, and looking at that list the only two players we've been really excited about in recent years were Bellerin and Wilshere.
Really?
 

NinjaFletch

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I'm sure you could find some delusional ones on Twitter, but that hardly counts. Every team has those fans.
Maybe I'm just unfortunate to know more of them!

Anyway I don't have much point to make on Martinelli or Saka (who I think do look talented). I was just generally shocked at how poor your record is given I still associate Arsenal with young players. I'm less convinced by any of the others, mind, but time will tell on them.
 

Che Guevara

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Maybe I'm just unfortunate to know more of them!

Anyway I don't have much point to make on Martinelli or Saka (who I think do look talented). I was just generally shocked at how poor your record is given I still associate Arsenal with young players. I'm less convinced by any of the others, mind, but time will tell on them.
Arsenal's youth policy under Wenger was overhyped and largely unsuccessful. But that was more due to Wenger's flawed philosophy as a grooming and selling manager, which doesn't work anymore in this era.
 

SinNombre

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Hang on, what point exactly do you and @Pogue Mahone think you're making? I don't know any Arsenal fan who thinks we have an amazing youth system, and looking at that list the only two players we've been really excited about in recent years were Bellerin and Wilshere.

There definitely wasn't any "hype machine" going crazy about the majority of the names on that list.
That's obviously untrue.

Arsenal has had a lot of hyped prospects over the years from Gibbs (next Ashley Cole), Lansbury, Afobe, Merida (next Fabregas), Quincy (new Henry), Bentley and Pennant (better than Ronaldo).

In general and broadly speaking, Arsenal fans have not shown any talent in picking the level of their youth talent.

I feel United academy watchers have a much more superior record in that. My personal list of obvious United academy talents have included
Rossi (excellent pro career until injuries broke him)
Pique
Evans
Ravel Morrison (only one to fail, such a waste)
Pogba
Greenwood

Mason is in much stronger company in terms of players he is being compared to.
 

RedRonaldo

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It’s too early to judge, no one can guess it right at that early age (remember at one point its Rooney>Ronaldo>Messi). But if I have to choose one right now, it would definitely be Greenwood.
 

RashyForPM

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I don’t associate Arsenal with a brilliant academy, rather I associate Arsene with being fantastic with youth development.

To answer the thread’s question: Greenwood.
 

Beanz

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To answer the thread question, Greenwood. But I still quite like martinelli.I watch arsenal a lot and when he's playing he's never not trying. I don't know how to put it but i've never seen not put a shift in. He has something, not yet sure what it is but its something and arsenal could do with more of it.

Won't expound on greenwood we all know how great he is
 

Nickelodeon

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Is Martinelli injured? Haven’t seen him in a while. At one point, I think after Chelsea away, it seemed like he would break into the starting XI. However, seems like Nketiah is ahead of him in the pecking order now.

Either way, he was a snip at just 6 million. Comparisons with Greenwood are pretty one sided right now. However, that doesn’t definitely guarantee that it would remain that way.
 

TheNewEra

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That's obviously untrue.

Arsenal has had a lot of hyped prospects over the years from Gibbs (next Ashley Cole), Lansbury, Afobe, Merida (next Fabregas), Quincy (new Henry), Bentley and Pennant (better than Ronaldo).

In general and broadly speaking, Arsenal fans have not shown any talent in picking the level of their youth talent.

I feel United academy watchers have a much more superior record in that. My personal list of obvious United academy talents have included
Rossi (excellent pro career until injuries broke him)
Pique
Evans
Ravel Morrison (only one to fail, such a waste)
Pogba
Greenwood

Mason is in much stronger company in terms of players he is being compared to.
Calling Pique a Man Utd youth academy is a little fishy though, he spent much more time in La Masia.
 

SinNombre

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So you know how Arsenal fans here were trying to refute their history of overrating and overhyping their young players.

Check arsenalmania or r/arsenal right now, and Saka is the best thing since sliced bread.

Miles better than Sancho

Saka is levels above Sancho, Sancho would struggle playing for a top 6 team in England, he looks extra good because hes playing in the Bundesliga, Saka is 20x better then Sancho was when he was 18, Saka has potential to be one of the best top 10 players in the world, this kid will become the next big player in England, levels above Sancho and 2-3 levels above Raheem Sterling.
Greenwood and Foden are limited

Foden and Greenwood may look more elegant on the ball, but they are not more capable. Saka is a better athlete than both, naturally stronger and much more versatile. Greenwood is just a better finisher and Foden a better passer.
I agree that Foden is an elite technician, and Greenwood is a supremely talented finisher but talent isn't everything. Saka is the most effective of the three imo, at least from what we've seen so far.
These are just off one page of arsenalmania
 

Kush

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So you know how Arsenal fans here were trying to refute their history of overrating and overhyping their young players.

Check arsenalmania or r/arsenal right now, and Saka is the best thing since sliced bread.

Miles better than Sancho



Greenwood and Foden are limited





These are just off one page of arsenalmania
:lol:

Bunch of morons
 

ThierryHenry14

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So you know how Arsenal fans here were trying to refute their history of overrating and overhyping their young players.

Check arsenalmania or r/arsenal right now, and Saka is the best thing since sliced bread.

Miles better than Sancho



Greenwood and Foden are limited





These are just off one page of arsenalmania
Another year pass. It is nice to see all the young players mentioned in this thread are doing well for their clubs, especially Foden cemented a first team place in City is not an easy task. It is sad to see Nketiah leaving the club soon though, but he is 22 and needs first team football quick. It is better be a Jonathan David for Lille than sitting on the bench in Arsenal.
 

GoonerBear

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That's obviously untrue.

Arsenal has had a lot of hyped prospects over the years from Gibbs (next Ashley Cole), Lansbury, Afobe, Merida (next Fabregas), Quincy (new Henry), Bentley and Pennant (better than Ronaldo).

In general and broadly speaking, Arsenal fans have not shown any talent in picking the level of their youth talent.

I feel United academy watchers have a much more superior record in that. My personal list of obvious United academy talents have included
Rossi (excellent pro career until injuries broke him)
Pique
Evans
Ravel Morrison (only one to fail, such a waste)
Pogba
Greenwood

Mason is in much stronger company in terms of players he is being compared to.
The same could be said of all clubs. I remember hearing hype about guys like Chong, Gomes, Morrison, Wilson, Macheda, Januzaj who haven't lived up to the hype (yet in some cases).

As others have said, it's difficult to predict how young guys will take to first team football. We all like to hype up our youth, but the truth is very few of them actually live up to the hype.

As for the thread title itself, both these boys are extremely talented. My question for Utd fans is, Is Greenwood's best position as a RW or CF, and if it is CF, do we think he will be trusted to lead the line over a long term basis?
 

cyberman

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Greenwood is a finishing freak of nature. He’s one of those players that are nailed on to be ridiculous at 25
 

SilentWitness

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Martinelli has improved Arsenal loads since he has started more regularly but aye, Greenwood is a Foden level talent.
 

Nish115

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Not seeing these levels which people talk about personally, but i'd agree Greenwood on raw talent is better. But.. if he has the mentality or not to translate that to being a world class player is another question. I have no doubt Martinelli has that mentality, but he has got some aspects of his game to work on a bit.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Martinelli is the better player. Greenwood may end up like Podolski if he doesn’t up the levels. I hope his mentality isn’t impacted by the viruses at our club.
 

Siezard

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Martinelli can't progress at Arsenal. Arsenal has always been known for releasing good players to other clubs. Plus Arsenal always keep changing the first 11 and their positions so Martinelli does not even get to play in a fixed position. He's not even a guaranteed starter.

You can even give Arsenal Messi, but call him Jessi and they will finish out of top 4 because the manager can't stick to the first 11 players and tactic that fits them.

Also, Martinelli is injury-prone so let's just give it to Greenwood, the talented superstar.
 
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Bebestation

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Feel like players can develop more at Arsenal this last year. Their fans have excepted where they are in a footballing level and can appreciate their club moving step by step in the right direction instead of the wrong one every 3 years.

Some good players like Saka, Smith Rowe, Martinelli, White, Odegaard, Ramsdale, Tierney, Tomiyasu are all in the same team seem like they have a bit of freedom to reach something close to their level in terms of playing ability.
 

Oly Francis

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Martinelli has improved Arsenal loads since he has started more regularly but aye, Greenwood is a Foden level talent.
I have a hard time seeing that. They're basically the same age and Foden is miles above Greenwood at the moment. Of course, Pep helped him improve but there's a long way to go for Greenwood to claim this status.