I think chance creation/playmaking is the most difficult discipline in football which is why there are no pure goal scorers or defenders considered among the usual suspects in greatest of all time discussions. Haaland is obviously a freak in terms of goal scoring but for me, a player that reliant on service can't really be considered the best in the world. Mbappe is also very focused on goals, just not as much as Haaland. I enjoy watching both and hope they break every record they can but I think it is a bit annoying that people focus on goal stats that much. Generally I think this generation will be much more even in terms of top players. Nobody will stand out by the margins Messi and Cristiano used to. Here's hoping that players such as Gavi, Wirtz, Pedri, Musiala, etc. fulfill their potential because those type of players are much more involved and on their day are capable of having 20+ great plays in a game while Haaland and to a lesser extent Mbappe are often invisible until they score, even if they do it twice or thrice.
Haaland vs Mbappe - Heirs Apparent
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Am not sure how Mbappe is playing it safe while Haaland is proving himself in some hard circumctances. If you didn't know, you would think it is Maradona/Napoli story and not Haaland banging them from 3 yards for one of the most dominant teams in the world who are fully set to maximize his numbers in a way that very few teams could (if any).
You don't see how playing for PSG in Ligue 1 between Messi and Neymar is playing it safe vs. playing for City in the EPL? Who do you think has the most shots per 90 between the 2? Do you really think City is more dominant in the PL than PSG is in Ligue 1? PSG in Ligue 1 is the most unbalanced we've ever seen a league. They literally have the best player in the league in every position. Do you think City are more dominating and set to feed their main man than 2009-2016 Barca and Real Madrid?
If you haven't noticed: Haaland is 9 goals ahead of the second highest goalscorer in the top 5 leagues, he on course to smash the previous all time record in the PL by between 10-20 goals. Good teams have had great strikers in the PL before, but this is just rediculous in comparison. Aguero's EPL record is 26, he played for a arguably even stronger team through his peak and Haaland is on 25 goals after 19 games of his first season. Have you watched City play this season? Do you really think they are set to maximize his numbers? There is almost unlimited room for improving that aspect for them. He's playing against parked busses every week and has 2 PL CBs on him from first to final whistle, he's literally feeding off scraps compared to Mbappe. People said he wouldn't fit City because he needed space to make runs, and now he's scoring 1,5 goal a game against parked busses, so I guess you need to make up new narratives along the way to downplay what he's doing.
There is a lot of potential top players coming forward, but there is a reason the discussion mainly involves Mbappe and Haaland. Their end product.
Mbappe is still pretty even with Messi at the same age in numbers, and Haaland is ahead of that. This is compared to the GOAT.
Top 5 leagues (Haaland at 22, Messi after 11/12 season, Mbappe at 24)
Haaland 1,13 goals/90 and 1,41 goals+assists/90
Messi 0,92 goals/90 and 1,37 goals+assists/90
Mbappe 0,91 goals/90 and 1,29 goals+assists/90
CL (at 24 (Haaland at 22)
Haaland 1,47 goals/90 and 1,63 goals+assists/90
Messi 0,84 goals/90 and 1,18 goals+assists/90
Mbappe 0,77 goals/90 and 1,28 goals+assists/90
National team (Haaland at 22, Messi after 11/12 season, Mbappe 24)
Haaland 1,03 goals/90 and 1,17 goals+assists/90
Messi 0,40 goals/90 and 0,78 goals+assists/90
Mbappe 0,65 goals/90 and 1,07 goals+assists/90 (World Champion)
Peak seasons in the CL and League:
Haaland this season: 1,50 goals/90 and 1,65 goals+assists/90
Messi 11/12: 1,35 goals/90 and 1,86 goals+assists/90 (50 goals in LaLiga and 14 in the CL)
Mbappe 18/19: 1,10 goals/90 and 1,54 goals+assists/90
Putting Ronaldo's numbers in here is pointless, because he, despite having won a ballon d'or (at 23), would look pretty mediocre next to these three.
When you are comparable or better than the goats at the same age you'll get highlighted.
Haaland is scoring at a higher rate this season than Messi did in his record-season, and it is not because he is getting the best ever service, because he isn't. I don't get the need to downplay it.
What Mbappe does is also insane, but not to the same degree numberswise, and he needs to do it outside of France.
The reason those two are singled out is the current obsession with goals and I think this primarily stems from the Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi rivalry being broken down to goal comparisons (which obviously never did Messi justice). Before them, you didn't pick the best player based on how many goals he scored. Actually, even the most prolific goal scorers were often considered worse than the playmakers playing alongside them, for instance Ronaldinho/Eto'o or Zidane/Henry. Messi and Ronaldo made it about goals because they combined overall contribution/playmaking with an insane goal output.
But it's simply not doing the sport justice to see it this way and I believe it is beginning to sink in with this new generation of players coming through. First, we have more and more advanced metrics that are displayed in the coverage of games, such as line breaking passes, successful passes under pressure, dribblings completed, distance of ball carries, etc. And second, people see that Haaland simply doesn't have the same impact as other players. Yes, he scores an incredible amount of goals but in the end, a goal is simply the last contact before the ball passes the goal line. Whether or not that touch was the most decisive one in the sequence of play is a different matter and quite often, the play which "made" the attack occurs earlier in the chain. For instance, if you take a look at their xGC values (which essentially measures the chances created in all attacks that they were involved in in some capacity), then Messi this season is at 1.38, Neymar at 1.36, Mbappe at 1.22 and Haaland at 1.01. And that's not even the measuring the positive impact that they create in other circumstances - for instance a great through ball in an attack that doesn't lead to a shot or a great ball retention under pressure, etc.
So for me, neither Mbappe nor Haaland is comparable or better than those players. They really have nothing on Messi at the same age because they are far too limited to goals. Even somebody like Mbappe who is much more involved than Haaland.
I don't know what people said about Haaland joining City. It wasn't me, so you are the one who constructed alternative or imaginative narrative here and then answering to it. I thought that City could cary last season Ronaldo to 30+ goals in the age of 36, so there is that. Or any other great striker/poacher they've been looking to add for a while.
Am also not downplaying anything, the only one who is downplaying things is you with Mbappe and Ligue 1. The man has proved himself on every stage aside from his league (which isn't that bad in the first place) with brilliant performances in CL and WC.
As a 18-year-old kid he led Monaco against the very same City side you say that has been "arguably even stronger team" then this one (absolutely disagree with that) + led his teams to CL, WC finals recently. If he was just banging them in his league you would maybe have a point, but his body of work is much more accomplished. If he succeds in bringing PSG to 2 or 3 CL titles that will be highly impressive feat no matter of the league. And for me, he doesn't even need to change the league if he succeds in making PSG CL powerhouse.
I would reacted the same way if someone said that anyone could put Haaland numbers.
City is absolutely set on maximizing Haaland output though and why wouldn't they when he is such a brilliant striker. He has a higher goal per game ratio in City then in Dortmund (1.17 vs 0.97) with his assist numbers dropping down. Still, no one could produce those same numbers. Don't think even Mbappe could, although he would make it up in other areas most likely.
However, pretending that Mbappe is having an easy life while Haaland is fighting some uphill battle is just hyperbole. They are both in stacked superteams which are set to work/play in their favour. One doesn't have to track back being concentrated only on attack in a loaded team, while the other is waiting for a service with his team having over 65% average in possesion and dominating every game. Again, in absolutely loaded team which, in the last 5 seasons, won the same amount of league trophies as PSG ironically.
They both earn those privileges because of their abilities, but the only narrative that is wrong is claiming one has it easier than the other. Honestly, I don't know how you can look at that City team and say it isn't a fantastic fit for Haaland. Or he for them, it works both ways.
Again more hyporbolic nonsense. "Feeding off scraps". Meh, whatever.
Can't believe he actually wrote that, no striker has ever been fed in the PL as much as Haaland this season.
You both have many good points and I don't dissagree with most, but I think we just have a different view on how to valuate and assess the statistical data, and especially when it comes to how extreme outliers Haaland and Mbappes really are when it comes to end product for young players.
When you have a statistical outlier as extreme as Haaland (and partly Mbappe), it's impossible for me overlook how much they stand out compared to other talented footballers out there. Both historically and in the current footballing landscape.
I love a good playmaker and maestro, or even better, a playmaker/maestro that can also score buckets full, but I think there is more than one way of being "the best footballer". All the players on the pitch have different roles and jobs, and being a pure specialist is one of them for me. Most of the greats have one thing in common, and that is that they all had great teams around them. Messi wouldn't be Messi without the best ever team around him, in Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Neymar, Suarez, Henry, Piquet etc. feeeding him and allowing him to do what he does best. The same with Ronaldo and most other greats. When you break records every week and move the standards like Haaland and Mbappe are doing now, you have a potential goat on your hand. Both Mbappe and Haaland are young and a lot can happen between now and the end of their careers, but there is obviously a reason why this thread exists in every football discussion forum on the internet.
Do you honestly think Mbappe and Haaland will be on the same tier as Eto'o and Henry (better than Eto'o) when we do the aftermath at the end of their careers? They are just so incredibly far ahead of them at this stage of their careers. Eto'o and Henry were breaking no records or moving any standards in their early twenties.
By "feeding off scraps" I mean that City have a long way to go before they have maximized the potential service to him. They can do a lot better when it comes to play balls in behind into space, 1-2s in and around the box and crosses into the box. They are very much still work in progress. A scary thought.
No one disagrees Mbappe is a far better technical footballer. Haaland is a far, far better striker and goalscorer. I can make that argument because he plays against harder opposition. The goal output at the first half of the Premier League campaign is something no one in the history of the league has come close to. You cant make an honest argument for any other player "would have been able to in this City team", when not even strikers like a prime Sergio Aguero could.
I dont understand how you can possibly insinuate that Mbappe doesnt play for the most top-heavy, star filled, financially doped team in the history of the game in the weakest of the big-five European leagues. The Premier League is significantly more competetive than Ligue 1. Its not even a discussion.
You can throw in arguments like the national team and Champions League, and those are fine, because those are at least honest. France does have a national team far superior to that of Norway, so we are left with the Champions League statistics as the only current metric to make an honest assesment of at least scoring ability. when the competiton resumes, Haaland will very likely become the fastest person to 30 goals in the competition. Taking that reord away from Kylian Mbappe.
When people say that Mbappe plays it safe, they only mean that he plays in a comparatively weak league to the Premier League or even La Liga. We can all assume that he would tear it up there, and for all we know he might, but until he does, all of that is make believe and assumptions.
Ok, Team Norway.
Krillin anyday. Majin Buu can feck off.
That's fair enough and yeah, you are absolutely right that every big player had a team build around him. The only difference here is obviously my disagreement with Mbappe having to prove outside France. Because he proved himself from the age of 17 on pretty much every big stage in football scoring 4 goals in WC finals by the age of 24 which is just insane. For me, it compansates over the fact that he is still in the French league and I don't consider it as some flaw in his legacy. If he was struggling in other competitions then yeah, sure, but this way the argument doesn't hold.
I don't see Mbappe scoring back to back hatricks 
Mbappé it's the better player. Haaland seems to be the better goalscorer. That's it.