Hands up if you owe Fred an apology

ZupZup

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He's decent like, maybe top four quality but Lets not kid ourselves he is world class and we will battling for the league title with him in our side.

Good squad player Yes, If we want to be battling for the title then no.

He's just not good enough in the final third.
See, I don't really understand this critique... same with the stuff about his shooting.

I couldn't imagine Kante getting the same because he's not a final third player... and neither is Fred. His job is to win the ball, and to to help us launch attacks which he does very well. We suffer at the moment because we don't have the creative attacking players in the absence of Pogba, to really help us in the final third. That doesn't mean Fred who is actually very effective in his own role should be expected to do everything.
 

Suvvernmanc

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Fred has inadvertently given Jose the finger with his recent performances. That makes me happy.

I always thought Fred needed time before settling in, and that he had the quality to make it in the PL. I never thought he was a poor player, just that he was struggling under Jose to thrive.

Jose made comments about Woodward buying players that he (Jose) didn't want or ask for. He was clearly talking about Fred. Freds early performances made us all agree with Joses decision to not play him. Players just sometimes need an arm round their shoulder and some support. Fred didnt get that from Jose at all from what I can gather.

Thankfully, for all the criticism that Ole gets on here and the media, he definitely has Improved Fred and i believe helped settle him down. A run of games then allowed him to play to his potential.

£52m well spent in my opinion.
 

ZupZup

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That definitely is not a good use of Fred. His Shakhtar role was closer to where Bruno plays now. He'd doing a decent job, but he needs to mature in controlling the game more from the deep.
Why is it not a good use of him? I am not bothered about what he did at Shakhtar... for me, his current style of play and role is very similar to what Kante was doing at Leicester and Chelsea. A player who was widely lauded for his effectiveness. Fred is also proving to be very effective in this role.
 

Red Company

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Do some people look at a player playing poorly and decide he's automatically a poor player? I think many do. Maybe that's a symptom of the short-termism that's become a blight on our game. The thing is, there are many reasons a player might be playing poorly: they're new to a very different league and therefore style and intensity of football; they're managing an undisclosed injury; they have personal off-field problems; or they're being played too infrequently to build any kind of consistency—any one of which can cause confidence issues, which in turn only exacerbate the problem.

What I genuinely don't understand is the apparent inability of fans—who purport to watch and understand football and support our team's players—to even recognize the good player struggling amid any or all of the above distractions. Many of us saw Fred as a good player who was struggling, whereas others chose to ridicule him and give up on him as if they were oblivious to the qualities of this tenacious little player, qualities some of us could clearly see. Are the majority of fans really this clueless?
This!

When Fred was signed, let's not forget that he did not get much playing time under Mourinho and add to that the learning curve of playing in the Premier League. In my opinion or I'd hope in the opinion of fans who do have a clue, this results in a shortage of confidence and also a delay in adjustments that were needed due to a change of environment. Which in turn results in performances that are not up to par with what was expected. But that does not mean that we made the wrong decision buying him. Sometimes it just takes time and fans need to put everything into context and have some patience before throwing a player under the bus.

I also think his valuation (50 million) got some fans expecting the version of Fred that we are only now getting to see, back then. It is definitely not his fault he cost the club so much money. Inflation is to blame. Had we signed him at a price of $25/30 million instead, I am sure fans would have been more patient with him.

Furthermore, there was a reason Guardiola wanted Fred and I think it is fairly easy to comprehend how a Fred playing under Guardiola would perform as compared to a Fred playing under Mourinho. It was not until Ole came in and gave Fred time and freedom to express his playing style (which he did not get as much under Mourinho), that we started to see a better version of him. Also, it is not just Fred who suffered during Mourinho's time or Ole's time, more then half our team was subpar.

We also had to change our style of play as a team and obviously many of the passes our players were making were incorrect, but that is not due to a lack of quality always. Changing a style of play entirely and that too in the PL is a challenge of its own and does result in mistakes in the short term.

I find Fred could be more impactful in the attacking third though and I hope he works to improve this aspect of his game. But I have no issues with his style in midfield, in fact, our team needed a Brazilian like him who is not afraid to take risks and try a few nutmegs here and there for example, if it will result in a forward motion play rather than keep passing backwards and play it safe all the time which had been evident frequently under LVG and Mourinho.
 

Vanrouge

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This!

When Fred was signed, let's not forget that he did not get much playing time under Mourinho and add to that the learning curve of playing in the Premier League. In my opinion or I'd hope in the opinion of fans who do have a clue, this results in a shortage of confidence and also a delay in adjustments that were needed due to a change of environment. Which in turn results in performances that are not up to par with what was expected. But that does not mean that we made the wrong decision buying him. Sometimes it just takes time and fans need to put everything into context and have some patience before throwing a player under the bus.

I also think his valuation (50 million) got some fans expecting the version of Fred that we are only now getting to see, back then. It is definitely not his fault he cost the club so much money. Inflation is to blame. Had we signed him at a price of $25/30 million instead, I am sure fans would have been more patient with him.

Furthermore, there was a reason Guardiola wanted Fred and I think it is fairly easy to comprehend how a Fred playing under Guardiola would perform as compared to a Fred playing under Mourinho. It was not until Ole came in and gave Fred time and freedom to express his playing style (which he did not get as much under Mourinho), that we started to see a better version of him. Also, it is not just Fred who suffered during Mourinho's time or Ole's time, more then half our team was subpar.

We also had to change our style of play as a team and obviously many of the passes our players were making were incorrect, but that is not due to a lack of quality always. Changing a style of play entirely and that too in the PL is a challenge of its own and does result in mistakes in the short term.

I find Fred could be more impactful in the attacking third though and I hope he works to improve this aspect of his game. But I have no issues with his style in midfield, in fact, our team needed a Brazilian like him who is not afraid to take risks and try a few nutmegs here and there for example, if it will result in a forward motion play rather than keep passing backwards and play it safe all the time which had been evident frequently under LVG and Mourinho.
Probably not a surprise, but I fully agree.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I find Fred could be more impactful in the attacking third though and I hope he works to improve this aspect of his game.
I couldn't imagine Kante getting the same because he's not a final third player... and neither is Fred. His job is to win the ball, and to to help us launch attacks which he does very well.
See, even among United fans, there is a lack of understanding on Fred's strengths and his relative role in the team.

In Shakhtar, he was a potent player in final third often popping up there. In United, there's an expectation for him to be more of a secondary player with Bruno/Pogba being the most advanced midfielder on pitch.

What United needs is a player capable of running the game from the deep, a la vintage Scholes or Carrick. Helps in recovery, makes vertical passes and able to control the tempo and flow of the game from the deep. Now Fred has the passing ability, but it's the lack of maturity to control from the deep (and not attempt to be a attacking b2b) that concerns me here.
 

Lee565

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This!

When Fred was signed, let's not forget that he did not get much playing time under Mourinho and add to that the learning curve of playing in the Premier League. In my opinion or I'd hope in the opinion of fans who do have a clue, this results in a shortage of confidence and also a delay in adjustments that were needed due to a change of environment. Which in turn results in performances that are not up to par with what was expected. But that does not mean that we made the wrong decision buying him. Sometimes it just takes time and fans need to put everything into context and have some patience before throwing a player under the bus.

I also think his valuation (50 million) got some fans expecting the version of Fred that we are only now getting to see, back then. It is definitely not his fault he cost the club so much money. Inflation is to blame. Had we signed him at a price of $25/30 million instead, I am sure fans would have been more patient with him.

Furthermore, there was a reason Guardiola wanted Fred and I think it is fairly easy to comprehend how a Fred playing under Guardiola would perform as compared to a Fred playing under Mourinho. It was not until Ole came in and gave Fred time and freedom to express his playing style (which he did not get as much under Mourinho), that we started to see a better version of him. Also, it is not just Fred who suffered during Mourinho's time or Ole's time, more then half our team was subpar.

We also had to change our style of play as a team and obviously many of the passes our players were making were incorrect, but that is not due to a lack of quality always. Changing a style of play entirely and that too in the PL is a challenge of its own and does result in mistakes in the short term.

I find Fred could be more impactful in the attacking third though and I hope he works to improve this aspect of his game. But I have no issues with his style in midfield, in fact, our team needed a Brazilian like him who is not afraid to take risks and try a few nutmegs here and there for example, if it will result in a forward motion play rather than keep passing backwards and play it safe all the time which had been evident frequently under LVG and Mourinho.
Sums what I believed before he started to come good for us, in a way his situation is somewhat similar to mkhitaryan, I think we did sign a really good footballer but like fred was treated poorly under Mourinho and then throw in the fact that adjusting straight to the league is not easy.

I also believe fred has more in his locker in an attacking sense as it was seen at shakhtar but this club over the years seems to try and shackle a players ability on the ball and turn them into nothing but hard workers, just look at Herrera as an example who when he first joined was almost Paul Scholes like by having the knack of arriving around the box at the right time and scoring a few good goals and he was looking for those killer through balls but van Gaal lost trust in him unless he started playing more safe and then Mourinho started playing him as defensive midfielder and even in defence at times.

We even did it pogba, I just hope we dont do the same thing with bruno.
 

InspiRED

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Got to say I can feel a little bit smug about this, because I always rated him and believed the quality was there. All the people saying he was championship quality...
 

tenpoless

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Never hated him or doubted him. I just felt We overpaid for him. He proved me wrong in that regard as well.
 

Tom Cato

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Surprised I'm not tagged in this thread.

Still, no chance I will say that Fred has been "fixed" or "proved" anyone wrong. The problem was never his work rate or running.
He is still trying to win the ball when he should contain, he is still making the same dangerous mistakes in his passing (when he hit Matic against Wolves last game) and he is still not consistent in his touch or passing.

But he has gone from being one of the biggest liabilities to not being a liability(Asset when the team is not in possession, somewhat a liability when the team is in possession due to his inconsistency and lack of awareness when receiving the ball). If this is down to him making improving or the others being either injured or playing like headless chickens... I think it is a bit of both.
Still hold this opinion on Fred today?
 

Jaae

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I don't. Never judge a player before they've had two full seasons at the club. If they're still not showing anything by the end of their 2nd season then fair enough. Got to give players time to settle, and especially players from abroad. Not everyone can settle instantly.
 

ifightdragons

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Yeah, I wrote him off and he's one of our most reliable players now.
That's not saying much in this team.

The ridiculous thing with our supporters is that they will constantly overhype a player or forgive long strings of awful performance, if only they have 4-5 good games here and there.

The good players are those who perform consistently over several seasons.

Not even the likes of Rashford has managed to do so. And certainly not Fred!
 

Mark Pawelek

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No apology here. I questioned the ridiculous fee United paid for him: £52m for a Ukrainian league player. Very dodgy. It took 1½ years to bring out his best form. Other clubs pay £5m for similar results.
 

JeffBoomTetris

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I put my hand up only because I had relegated him to the tag of "deadwood". Now he looks like a competent player.

But, he still isn't pulling up any trees for me. His ability on the ball is inconsistent. Often, when the team is actually playing well as a whole, he sticks out so much. He can often fluff around as a headless chicken.

As of yet, he still has a place in the team and needs better players to play with. I seen one poster describe him as a "one-man midfield" which is being a bit too optimistic
 

Fosu-Mens

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Still hold this opinion on Fred today?
To be fair, many of our players are a liability when the team is in possession, especially against a balanced defence: Shaw, Lingard, Pereira, AWB, Fred(Yeah, still).

I like him more when we are not in possession, especially when trying to win the ball in congested areas. Really effective in these situations.

In our current setup and approach to football, he is an asset. And with Bruno taking more of the responsibility of passing when we play against a defence in balance, Fred is doing less of what he is not good at. Making him less of a liability when the team is in these scenarios.

My opinion on Fred is still the same, only that he is doing less of what he is not good at with Bruno in the team.
 

charlenefan

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No apology here. I questioned the ridiculous fee United paid for him: £52m for a Ukrainian league player. Very dodgy. It took 1½ years to bring out his best form. Other clubs pay £5m for similar results.
Except it didn't take anywhere close to that long
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Some posters don’t half chat some shite. Just admit you were wrong and leave it at that, what’s with this need to add a caveat.
 

sugar_kane

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I love Fred but sometimes I watch us and can't help but think they ridiculous gulf in our midfield is sometimes created by his questionable sense of positioning and off the ball movement.

Could be a coaching/tactical thing (and the fact it hasn't been addressed yet is worrying) but I do wonder about Fred's tactical nous in spite of his incredible effort levels and clear raw ability.
 

sammsky1

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No apology here. I questioned the ridiculous fee United paid for him: £52m for a Ukrainian league player. Very dodgy. It took 1½ years to bring out his best form. Other clubs pay £5m for similar results.
would love to know who these players are. can't wait for you to tell us.
 

simonhch

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I'm happy to say I always preached patience with Fred. The ability was there for all to see. We just write people off so fast these days. The list is endless.

The other one who could benefit from some perspective is the criticism that Dalot often gets. He’s young, in a new country, has had injury problems, and is still early in his development. I hope we give him a couple of years to turn into the quality player he can undoubtedly become. How good is anyone’s guess. But he has a lot of quality.

People often forget that some of our club legends, like Scholes, didn’t become first team regulars until they were 22 or more, and even then didn’t become top class players until their mid twenties. The list of players who were top drawer in their teens and early twenties, is really the exception. Not the rule.
 

simonhch

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No apology here. I questioned the ridiculous fee United paid for him: £52m for a Ukrainian league player. Very dodgy. It took 1½ years to bring out his best form. Other clubs pay £5m for similar results.
Good lord, really? Maybe in 1997. Fred was sought after, we beat City to his signing. He was very highly rated when we got him. A respected Brazilian journalist covering the national team described Fred as the future of Brazil’s midfield. 5m my arse.
 

Shiva87

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Fred has definitely proven me wrong. I thought he was a disaster in possession and a liability when winning the ball back. He had one or two good performances here and there but overall he was poor.

Since October, he has been nothing but consistent. He is winning the ball back, moving it forward and controlling our tempo. He is definitely one of the first names on the team sheet. Will be interesting once Pogba, Bruno, Fred and Scott are all fit. 3 of those 4 will start and it will probably be between Fred and Scott!
 

M Bison

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Great thread!

Id say 90% owe him an apology, myself included. He’s looking like a top CM now, one thing that goes unnoticed is he’s always available for a pass or an option, even in difficult circumstances and does very well in retaining possession And keeps the ball moving.

Cant shoot for toffee but I’m hopeful that will come too!
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Is he looking that good? I mean would Real, Bayern, or Barca, be bidding us hard for him in the summer? Are we not just happy that is he proving better than he was looking 6 months ago, and have had Pereira, Lingard and Matic to compare him to recently.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just not sure anymore with our players.
 

ifightdragons

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Is he looking that good? I mean would Real, Bayern, or Barca, be bidding us hard for him in the summer? Are we not just happy that is he proving better than he was looking 6 months ago, and have had Pereira, Lingard and Matic to compare him to recently.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just not sure anymore with our players.
You're just making sense, which can feel out of place in a nonsensical discussion.
 

Strelok

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The point is he was crap. I don't think we'd need to apologize for telling the truth.

I still remember the few matches
before his resurrection, it was horrible to watch.
 

Tony247

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When a 50m player takes almost a season to settle down then its a reflection on him, not his critics.

Getting better and I hope Bruno (who apparently doesn't need time to settle down) will make even a better player out of him.
 

FerociousCorgis

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Swear he turned the ball over at least 10 times in that first half alone. Good player yeah but let's ease up on hyping him to be some world class star
 

Hughie77

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No, he needed time to settle , plus better CM with him, and also his own attitude has changed I think, he was a bit on the quiet side, at first, you can now see he commands the ball, gives his opinions on pitch, I don't think he thought he could before. He's been the most improved player by long way, battles and runs runs and runs. He's a mainstay now, now Mctom is fit there could well be a rest coming up for him, but I wouldn't, well done to him realy.

Signings in summer and it's only going to get better for him.
 

Red Company

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Sums what I believed before he started to come good for us, in a way his situation is somewhat similar to mkhitaryan, I think we did sign a really good footballer but like fred was treated poorly under Mourinho and then throw in the fact that adjusting straight to the league is not easy.

I also believe fred has more in his locker in an attacking sense as it was seen at shakhtar but this club over the years seems to try and shackle a players ability on the ball and turn them into nothing but hard workers, just look at Herrera as an example who when he first joined was almost Paul Scholes like by having the knack of arriving around the box at the right time and scoring a few good goals and he was looking for those killer through balls but van Gaal lost trust in him unless he started playing more safe and then Mourinho started playing him as defensive midfielder and even in defence at times.

We even did it pogba, I just hope we dont do the same thing with bruno.
Totally agree. But I don’t think we’ll be doing that to Bruno or Fred going forward.

Even in today’s game Ole was on the touch line shouting at the players to get more forward passes going.
Bruno really stamped his authority and his involvement in offence was really good. He’s already become reliable in terms of giving those key passes and players trust him enough to make runs for him.

Fred again missed a great chance and I hope he can start finishing these chances now. I think his numbers will only improve once we can start creating a decent number of goal scoring opportunities on a steady basis in every game.
 

Chairman Steve

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I’ve not really said too much on Fred so far. I thought he was unremarkable for the money we paid last season, but was prepared to give him a second season to see if he’d improve, and if he didn’t then there would be valid reason for criticism. I’m starting to notice him more in games and it’s mostly positive actions.

The best example I can give which has given me the mindset I mentioned above about giving them a second season to fully settle, is Drogba at Chelsea. I remember he came in for big money and being pretty average for Chelsea for like two whole seasons, but then 06/07 comes round and he’s an absolute goal machine for Chelsea.
 

eire-red

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He's turned into a good player that is reliable for us, but I still would like to see more from him on the ball. His engine, defensive work and turnovers in midfield have improved drastically, now would like to see him offer more in possession. Bruno is great in that 10 role, but I just feel that any midfield 3 consisting of both Fred and Matic/Fred and McTominay is just lacking that bit of quality when we are in possession.

Hoping that Fred's emergence, along with Bruno and McTominay coming back to full fitness means that we will finally see the end of both Lingard and Pereira in this squad. Add Pobga to the mix (if he even wants to be here anymore) and that looks like a real quality midfield.
 

Adamsk7

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I think he’s really good. His next issue is that teams are sussing out that he’s the main harasser when defending and most forward thinking passer of our deep lying players so they will target him. If they disposes him, then there’s nobody there to chase the ball down and they are through our midfield because Matic (whilst much improved) is not capable of those actions. We saw it today with Watford and we’ll see it until the end of the season so now Fred needs to up his game again and pop passes off quicker or always have his head on the swivel.