Hard times: adjusting to the new reality

Interesting comment in The Athetic today about Utds transfer window, that the impression in football world is that Utd no longer target the top players, but the rung below it. Hoping to uncover gems like Spurs did under Levy's ownership.

The Athletic the same source that had Sesko as the worst signings made by any club last summer...

I think we made it clear that our strategy was to prefer PL proven talent and to not be lured in to over paying for players whose motivations for joining the club might not be right.

And for all the garbage INEOS have brought with them, the past two summers at least this is what we've stuck to.

I mean we did the best business of anyone last summer and went from 15th to 3rd. We signed 3 forwards and our attack is not a "run below" any other PL team's. Including Arsenal who won the league and got to the CL final.

This summer we didn't want to over pay for Anderson or Fernandes, but the reason from what I can see is that they just aren't even close to as good as the fees paid for them. If we'd signed Fernandes for about £90 fecking million pounds and then Tielemans had gone to Spurs for about £30m, I'd have thought we must still be run by utter imbeciles.

The issue for me is not signing a LB, but that seems more a very dumb strategical error than based on us targeting a lower criteria of players. If anything it's the other way and we've been unwilling to plug a gap unless it's someone who ticked every box, despite that not being realistic.

And I say again. We went from 15th to 3rd in the space of a year, despite sacking a manager. Tottenham have spent a ton of money this summer and they won't be finishing 3rd, or anywhere close
 
I know some here love to glorify them but I reckon the only think INEOS care about is making money. In modern football you aren’t likely to be very profitable if you’re going after the best players trying to win but can find the right middle ground somewhere between 3rd and 5th place while spending relatively little.
 
Absolutely perfect window in regards to expenditure, means we can bank the CL money and be in an extremely strong position next summers window.

I feel we have more than enough on the squad to challenge the top 3/4, so should CL be achieved again then this window would have been an absolute resounding success.
 
There was incredible value in the market then, we were just skint. Hazard, sanchez, David Silva, yaya toure, aguero, Robben, sneijder, ozil, plus many others. We've been screwed by the glazers for 20 years, not just since sir Alex retired
Add Samir Nasri to that as well. We missed out on a lot of great players. The value was clearly there to see.
 
I know some here love to glorify them but I reckon the only think INEOS care about is making money. In modern football you aren’t likely to be very profitable if you’re going after the best players trying to win but can find the right middle ground somewhere between 3rd and 5th place while spending relatively little.
I think some on here work for them
 
I think some on here work for them
I doubt it though it may seem that way given the infatuation some seem to express. It’s probably just easy to buy into their narrative.
 
Throwing tons of money at players guarantees nothing - look at the dippers last season, for example.
Why is it always a dichotomy? You can spend at the top end and still make good buys and get good players, yet so many fans seem to think it's either "spend a bunch and waste it on crap or spend nothing and only shop in the value section"
 
Why is it always a dichotomy? You can spend at the top end and still make good buys and get good players, yet so many fans seem to think it's either "spend a bunch and waste it on crap or spend nothing and only shop in the value section"
It's exasperating. The point, of course, is that for investment to yield results, you have to invest well. If you don't it doesn't help to invest a lot, but if you do, a bigger investment yields a better result. You'd think this would be fairly straightforward.
 
I used to have a different account here in 00s and would argue to the hilt with our fans about the glazers and Woodward. Had to leave a few United forums and for guts of a decade didn’t do any chat online cause I couldn’t handle how ignorant everyone was being to how corrosive they were to the club.

I only decided it was worth coming back and chatting when it seemed like most people at least had caught up to the reality of how damaging they really are.

Even at that , I still feel the owners have been able to make United a business first, club second , no matter how much us fans still feel about it. The amount of signings made that were wrong , the amount of player power allowed to under mine managers (still to lessor degree), the whole culture around the club hasn’t been right since Woodard signed Fellaini and made a joke of Moyes from day 1.

I’m actually more encouraged by INEOS approach , no headless chicken signings, no marquee “this guy will bring loads of clicks to website” and no Ronaldo type signings. I got to sick to death of United signing players simply because they could , not necessarily what we needed or our manager wanted.

I think this season is about ideally solidifying champions league if possible , at worst getting Europa next season. And I’d hope that we are looking at maybe next years summer being the one we may feel it’s time to make the marquee signings because the foundation is in place.

Don’t sign a 100Mil player unless they absolutely can handle a maybe ok signing this year. I think of when pool signed Allison and VVD, if was when the club has built the foundations and those player would take them to the next level, the club and team were ready.

Ironically talking to a good friend who’s a pool fan and he feels United have traded places. He likes the business we have been doing , buying hungry players for less, while pool are making big expensive signings that aren’t working out.

I feel we only now get to see what carrick is made of and I really hope he can build on last season. But being interim manager tells you little , it’s when you are teh manager and get a transfer window that teh pressure really starts and you have to probe yourself.

So for me I’m actually very optimistic. If csrrocj doesn’t work out I don’t think we need an entirely new squad like we did with other managers and we won’t be stuck with undesirables. Every manager we have had has had massive issues with players , I really think people underestimate how corrosive unhappy players can be and at United every manger we’ve had has to make it work somehow even if players want to leave and manager wants them gone. You can’t expect to create a successful team in that environment.

Pogba wanted to leave after 2.5 years and was kept for another 3.5. No top successful club would keep a player in that situation simply because that player was a global superstar, the football comes first with most successful clubs. If a player isn’t working they are gone.

So while there are things INEOs have done wrong and will do , I think the way things are shaping up are better and a more realistic reflection of where the club is at. Nothing to eh worried about as in spite of all the corrosive stuff from the glazers United is still massive and our revenues are ridiculous relative to our rivals who have had way more success but they still can jsut about match us.
 
Really? The impact of debt matters to the issue, but revenue doesn't?

If we're talking about why we spent less than Ipswich, not really. The current financial problem is that we have very little cash in bank and we're already deep in short term credit debt, both of which we're trying to reverse. So profit and loss is the issue here, not revenue. We're like the guy who earns a lot of money but also has really high living costs and no savings. They have a lot coming in, but also a lot going out, and not much left at the end of each month.
 
LB is the biggest stick to beat United with this summer...than and transfer muppet envy for having not spent £100M+ on players like other clubs.

LB
Shaw, Maz, Dorgu, Amass and Dalot = United will be fine until January

Now let's get excited for the CL starting soon and not be all doom and gloom for once :devil:
 
I think we have a serious problem with the amount of “old transfers” we still have to pay.

Here is a simplified look at our incoming transfers over the last five years:

2021/22 → Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo: €142m ≈ €29m/year over 5 years, with the payments ending around 2026/27.
2022/23 → Antony, Casemiro, Lisandro, Malacia: €242m ≈ €49m/year, with payments ending around 2027/28.
2023/24 → Højlund, Mount, Onana: €212m ≈ €42m/year, with payments ending around 2028/29.
2024/25 → Yoro, Ugarte, De Ligt, Zirkzee, Dorgu, Mazraoui: €246m ≈ €49m/year, with payments ending around 2029/30.
2025/26 → Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha, Lammens: €246m ≈ €49m/year, with payments ending around 2030/31.

Obviously, this is a simplified calculation — actual payment schedules are not necessarily spread evenly over five years. But it gives an idea of the problem.

If we use this simplified model, in 2026/27 we would still have roughly €217m of transfer instalments to pay from deals made over the previous five years.

And this is where things become problematic. Over those five seasons, we qualified for the Champions League only twice. That means our actual revenues have been significantly below what the club would have budgeted for.

At the same time, our player sales have been poor:
  • 2025/26: €55m
  • 2024/25: €77m
  • 2023/24: €121m
  • 2022/23: €58m
  • 2021/22: €23m
  • 2020/21: €31m
That's only €365m in sales over six seasons.

So you have a combination of:
  1. Lower revenues because of fewer Champions League matches and less matchday/broadcast revenue.
  2. Huge transfer commitments from previous summers that are still being paid.
  3. Poor player sales, meaning we generate very little cash from the squad.
  4. Lower player values, because several of our expensive signings have not performed as expected.
And then you add the cost of developing a new stadium, whether that is ultimately financed by INEOS, the club, debt, or a combination of the three. This is why I think people are underestimating our financial constraints.

Look at Chelsea over the same period. They played in the Champions League three times, reached the quarter-finals twice, participated in the extremely lucrative Club World Cup and reportedly generated around €100m from it.

They also spent roughly €1.7bn on transfers while generating around €1.1bn in sales — meaning they recovered roughly 65% of their gross transfer spending through player sales.

United, by comparison, have recovered only around 33%. That's a massive difference.

Chelsea have obviously made plenty of questionable decisions themselves, and I'm not saying their model is necessarily sustainable. But they have had significantly more transfer-market liquidity because they have been much more active and successful in selling players. At some point, you have to pay for the mistakes of the past.

United have spent enormous amounts on players over the last decade, while simultaneously failing to generate enough revenue through Champions League football and player sales.

So when people ask why we couldn't spend another €100m this summer, my answer is simple:

It's not necessarily because INEOS doesn't want to invest. It's because the club is carrying the financial consequences of the previous 10 years of poor management.

You can't spend €200m every summer forever while also carrying hundreds of millions in outstanding transfer commitments, generating relatively little from player sales, missing out on Champions League revenue, and potentially financing a new stadium.

At some point, the bill comes due. And I think we're seeing that bill now.
Transfer installments are not level and the roll off of the transfer debt( all deferred payments due) is front heavy.
The actual amount owed and the run off is reported in the accounts (yearlys and quarterlys). For instance, at 31 March 2026, we had transfer debt of 406m with amounts that needed to be paid in the first, second, and subsequent years also specified.
Previous transfer payments are a nuisance but they can be managed. It is just a method of buying players. If we have 600m free cash for investing in players in the next 5 years, the fact that we have 400m in transfer debt doesn't mean we can only spend 200m on new players. we can spend 600m by creating 400m in new deferred payments. If we want 0 transfer debt (a situation that would only arise by paying 100% of transfer fees up front), then we could only spend 200m on further players in the next 5 years. That degree of prudence would be dumb as it would be needlessly restrictive.
Your point about sales is a valid one. We are and have been shite sellers. Partly because we have been shite buyers. I mean the transfer debt above wouldn't be any problem if we had transfer fees payable to us that matched the transfer fees payable by us.
Our only source of money for transfers is cash generated by the business and proceeds from player sales. We have relied too heavily on cash generation, and the amount we currently generate isn't enough to fund heavy expenditure every year. We can not compete for in demand elite players.
I wouldn't agree that the club couldn't spend another 100m this summer, for a couple of reasons. The club extended its capacity on the RCF to 400m and that extra capacity could have handled a deposit on a new player. Most of the fee would need to be deferred (as per usual). The club also had record sales proceeds from players in the financial year just finished. From Q3 reporting we can surmise the the club will generate about 175m in 2026 in player sales. It means that despite heavy expenditure on players like Sesko in Q1, the club's net spend for the year is likely below budget at 85m. Cash wise, the club will probably be close to break even for the year with the heavy sales figure enabling the club to significantly pay down the RCF by June 30th this year.
 
Last edited:
Who is finishing above us? Have you actually looked at other teams?

Liverpool, Villa and Spurs haven't won a game yet. Villa and Spurs haven't even scored a goal yet!

We have got a far better squad than every team bar Arsenal. City and Chelsea are similar to us.
Manchester United was soundly defeated against Hull and was initially 1-0 down against Ipswich at home. Those are possibly the easiest fixtures of the season. That ain't tragic btw as managers has their own preference of how fit their team started in the season with some preferring to start strong and then they manage the burn out later on while others prefer to start slow and then grow in fitness as the season proceeds. I remember a time when those who won the charity shield would usually lose the EPL title. That 'curse' was only broken by Mourinho's Chelsea who managed to stay consistently good throughout the entire season mainly because he had a ridiculously huge squad which allowed him to rotate without a significant dip in performance. But I digress

Last year United was blessed with just 1 game a week. While others were busy juggling between different competitions and getting tired in the process, United had the luxury to properly rest players and get them drilled on the tactics for the next game. The results of that were various and some were quite noticeable. For example Luke Shaw was able to start and end the season without barely any injuries, a rarity in his career. That goes away this season to the advantage of Spurs who had strengthened the squad significantly and have a more experienced manager then we do. That fatigue will be tough on this team whose got its lion share of old (ex Maguire) or injury prone players (Shaw, Mount, Martinez, Mazraoui) with certain areas being so thin in terms of quality backup (FBs and STK). We're also in a situation were we've got an inexperienced manager who had never juggled around multiple competitions at that level, a CM whose now orphaned from his talisman (Casemiro has more CL medals than this club) and who had since been replaced with 2 relatively inexperienced CMs who were a bit of squad players last year

This is the most competitive league in the world, second only to the Serie A of the late 80s and early 90s. Similarly to that league it takes so damn little for things to go horribly wrong. In 93-94 Inter came few points away from getting relegated back then despite having top talent like Zenga, Bergomi, Bergkamp, Schillaci, Berti and co. The EPL is not far off. We ended 15th with a relatively decent side and Spurs came close to getting relegated last season. On paper we aren't that bad hence why I think that a CL finish is possible. However I fear that we've got too many weakspots that can go wrong. Our first team CBs are injury prone, our only natural LB is injury prone as well, we only have 1 natural striker and our manager while promising isn't very experienced.
 
It's exasperating. The point, of course, is that for investment to yield results, you have to invest well. If you don't it doesn't help to invest a lot, but if you do, a bigger investment yields a better result. You'd think this would be fairly straightforward.
Yeah it's not like those of us that want to see the club be more aggressive would just be happy with spanking 100mil on crap players. For example I thought that Tonali fee was outrageous for what he essentially is (roadrunner with some ball striking). But if as a club we are just going to bow out of every big potential deal no matter who the player is, then we'll find ourselves looking like Levy's Spurs or Wenger era Arsenal pretty soon.
 
Interesting comment in The Athetic today about Utds transfer window, that the impression in football world is that Utd no longer target the top players, but the rung below it. Hoping to uncover gems like Spurs did under Levy's ownership.

The Athletic haven't discovered something that was kept hidden. SJR said it when he came in... “I would rather sign the next Mbappé rather than spend a fortune buying success. It’s not that clever buying Mbappé. Anyone could figure that one out. More challenging is to find the next Mbappé or next Bellingham or next Roy Keane.”

Like it or not it's the current strategy.
 
I'm old enough to remember the latter Ferguson years when United sold Ronaldo for £80m and largely replaced him with Antonio Valencia for about £17m, while the club was carrying £700m-odd of Glazer-related debt.

So spare me the idea that this financial "mess" suddenly appeared two years ago. United were already being financially constrained in practice while City were assmbling the side that would eventually overtake us.

Glazer haven't spent a cent of their OWN money, it's all club generated revenue. feck them, and feck INEOS.
Absolutely. I guess some on here are too young to remember it, but the whole "no value in the market" thing started with Ferguson (on one of the many occasions he publically went to bat for the Glazers). He was having a dig at City at the time and predicted that they'd stop splashing so much cash about within "two or three years" because they'd realise that spending loads of money doesn't equal success. That interview really aged like milk.
 
This is nothing compared to embracing the new reality of being a sexual plaything in rimaldo's 'dungeon of delight'. That took an hour or two to adjust to, let me tell you.
 
This is nothing compared to embracing the new reality of being a sexual plaything in rimaldo's 'dungeon of delight'. That took an hour or two to adjust to, let me tell you.
Wait until what he does to you in project 2028. Just getting started
 
There was incredible value in the market then, we were just skint. Hazard, sanchez, David Silva, yaya toure, aguero, Robben, sneijder, ozil, plus many others. We've been screwed by the glazers for 20 years, not just since sir Alex retired
Imagine if the glazers had bought Barcelona or Madrid and tried to do the same what they did to United. I bet the Spanish government would have stepped in or the supporters would have burnt the stadium to the ground.
 
Imagine if the glazers had bought Barcelona or Madrid and tried to do the same what they did to United. I bet the Spanish government would have stepped in or the supporters would have burnt the stadium to the ground.
Real Madrid and Barcelona can't be bought because of the way their clubs are set up. And if they weren't, there's very little any Government can do. I'd imagine banks can step in bit that's only the case if debt repayments stop.

Fans had the chance to buy shares after we became a PLC in 91 but not enough did to have any serious impact on the running of the club and stop any hostile takeover

And again, if fans did launch a serious more violent protest against the Glazers, they'd probably be charged in a criminal court and have their lives ruined.
 
Last edited:
Imagine if the glazers had bought Barcelona or Madrid and tried to do the same what they did to United. I bet the Spanish government would have stepped in or the supporters would have burnt the stadium to the ground.
As you say, their supporters would've burnt the stadium to the ground within about 6 months.
 
As you say, their supporters would've burnt the stadium to the ground within about 6 months.

When a thousand or so of our fans were (in some case tooled up) trying to chase the Glazers around the stadium in 2005, a fairly high % of our support at the time was saying things like "it's a bit too far that" and "let's wait and see before we protest again"

Our legendary manager told angry fans go feck off and support Chelsea if they didn't like it.

I say this at least once a week on here but our support have done an insane amount to protest the Glazers.* It's ultimately not been successful because for the most part, there isn't a viable alternative and the value of clubs has gotten insanely high.

The other issue is that again, the way this country works is that any serious more violent protests would result in a criminal conviction. Are you prepared to potentially ruin your career so the Glazers sell the club and presumably a nation state buys us?

*The only people that can have any moral high ground are those that boycotted in 2005 and haven't given them a penny since
 
Can we stop this.

When a thousand or so of our fans were (in some case tooled up) trying to chase the Glazers around the stadium in 2005, a fairly high % of our support at the time was saying things like "it's a bit too far that" and "let's wait and see before we protest again"

Our legendary manager told angry fans go feck off and support Chelsea if they didn't like it.

I say this at least once a week on here but our support have done an insane amount to protest the Glazers. It's ultimately not been successful because for the most part, there isn't a viable alternative and the value of clubs has gotten insanely high.

The other issue is that again, the way this country works is that any serious more violent protests would result in a criminal conviction. Are you prepared to potentially ruin your career so the Glazers sell the club and presumably a nation state buys us?

*The only people that can have any moral high ground are those that boycotted in 2005 and haven't given them a penny since
I'm not saying barca or real fans would deal will it in the right way, because they wouldn't, just that it would be very different
 
At this rate we’ll end up like Sheffield Wednesday. Our only hope is that Ratcliffe walks away, leaving the scavenging Glazers in a panic.
 
At this rate we’ll end up like Sheffield Wednesday. Our only hope is that Ratcliffe walks away, leaving the scavenging Glazers in a panic.
it's a sad day that the man who keep tanking football clubs is seen as the adult in the room!
 
That's for the people running the club to figure out. What exactly are we doing right now to change that ? My thoughts are that to increase the revenue we need to be a regular CL club and for that you do need to spend. I understand our finances aren't great and we have wasted loads of money but I am not sure cutting down severely on spending is the way to go moving forward. More and more clubs have money now and the fact now is that we are losing the pull of Manchester United. Kids growing up these days aren't like dying to play for Manchester United. If you are going to run the club like a business then cutting spending is not the only way to run this business.
That is an utterly pathetic cop out.
 
At this rate we’ll end up like Sheffield Wednesday. Our only hope is that Ratcliffe walks away, leaving the scavenging Glazers in a panic.
Wait. What? Because we didn't spend another hundred million this summer, this is a sign that we're close to bankruptcy and gonna end up in League One. *

I despise all the wankers that own the club but this hyperbole is getting daft now.

*I'd probably enjoy a couple of seasons in the EFL tbf.
 
That is an utterly pathetic cop out.
Sure if you say so. It's not my job to figure out how the club gets money for transfers. That is literally the job of people getting paid millions for it. I have been clear about the fact that cutting spending is not the right way to do it because you basically are kind of restricting your ceiling now. The way the club is being run is very Arsenal under Wenger with the new stadium times where you are basically hoping that we make the CL as a successful season.
 
Yes we have to be tighter now due to the horrendous mistakes in recent years. The fans annoyed by it are generally those who love an expensive transfer, seemingly any expensive transfer, even though these are the exact mistakes we need to avoid.
 
Every time we don't buy a player is an opportunity for the academy to provide one. That should be part of our thinking always.
 
At this rate we’ll end up like Sheffield Wednesday. Our only hope is that Ratcliffe walks away, leaving the scavenging Glazers in a panic.
I think we will stabilise as a much better version of spurs, averaging around 4th/5th over the next couple of decades. We will be in the cl more often than not, have some good cup runs but never the backing to compete at the very top with elite sides