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Relevated

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But lindelof was the man who was in front of their goal scorer, so why would Harry maguire be at fault? He even pointed towards him and told someone to grab him

Watch pogba in the replays too, stands by watching.
 

red woppit

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Far from being a leader, he seems to be scared...

His mistake cost us the game. The only thing he should have been doing is marking Lestergard. It should have been the obvious settlement between Lindelof and him.

He should have been closer to Lestergard.
He is the left sided CB, so when the ball is on the left, his job is to guard the front post area, while his defensive partner should cover the back post, which is more or less what happened. A more defensive minded midfield player than Pogba, may well have picked up Vestergard, and/or prevented him from making the run on Lindelof, at least not given him a free run. At Leicester Maguire would have had total faith in his defensive partner to win the header, or at least make it really difficult for the attacking player to have a clear header, so he was clearly right to take up the position he did, it's not his fault if his team mates don't do the right thing defensively. It will be interesting when we come up against a team like Burnley to see if Ole will put Tuanzebe in, who is possibly better in the air than Lindelof.
 

Moiraine

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But lindelof was the man who was in front of their goal scorer, so why would Harry maguire be at fault? He even pointed towards him and told someone to grab him

Watch pogba in the replays too, stands by watching.
He is the left sided CB, so when the ball is on the left, his job is to guard the front post area, while his defensive partner should cover the back post, which is more or less what happened. A more defensive minded midfield player than Pogba, may well have picked up Vestergard, and/or prevented him from making the run on Lindelof, at least not given him a free run. At Leicester Maguire would have had total faith in his defensive partner to win the header, or at least make it really difficult for the attacking player to have a clear header, so he was clearly right to take up the position he did, it's not his fault if his team mates don't do the right thing defensively. It will be interesting when we come up against a team like Burnley to see if Ole will put Tuanzebe in, who is possibly better in the air than Lindelof.
It’s simple mathematics

A set piece in play, they got their tallest defender up, our tallest defender should have been marking him, Full stop.
 

Isotope

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It’s simple mathematics

A set piece in play, they got their tallest defender up, our tallest defender should have been marking him, Full stop.
You're mostly right. But the goal wasn't from set piece though.
 

noodlehair

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But lindelof was the man who was in front of their goal scorer, so why would Harry maguire be at fault? He even pointed towards him and told someone to grab him

Watch pogba in the replays too, stands by watching.
Our management was at fault for that goal. The players should know who is responsible for dealing with a single player in our goal area when a cross comes in. If they don't you have to do see what goes on in training.

Our entire defence was in position ready to deal with it. No reason why Pogba shouldn't move off in that scenario to be fair to him, but to have both centrebacks pointing at the only aerial threat as a cross comes in, as if it isn't their job to do something about it, is pretty laughable.
 

Adamsk7

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He’s been class since the first game. One of only a small handful at the club who truly deserve to be here. His ball retention and passing skills are laughably good when you compare them to most of the players playing in front of him.
Not that I’d want him there but he could probably play in our midfield and offer better forward passes than anyone other than Pogba and for general ticking over of play stuff he’d be better than him too!
 

Classical Mechanic

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It’s simple mathematics

A set piece in play, they got their tallest defender up, our tallest defender should have been marking him, Full stop.
It isn't. Vestegaard has agency and can just follow Lindelof as the weakest defender Swapping centre back positions to follow where their tallest player is is a very stupid idea.
 

Harry190

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I think he's tapping up Maddison. It's pretty obvious.
 

tomaldinho1

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It’s simple mathematics

A set piece in play, they got their tallest defender up, our tallest defender should have been marking him, Full stop.
FYI in no way is that mathematics...

If you were talking about a set piece, you'd be right. It's common to see an opponent's most dangerous aerial threats being marked by multiple players or by an equally good header of the ball. However, you're talking about the phase after the set piece where our defensive line is pushing out, midfielders and attackers are running through to make sure they aren't behind Maguire who sets our offside line, to suggest Maguire should just follow Vestergaard around and ignore what's going on after the set piece is taken is ridiculous.
 

Moiraine

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FYI in no way is that mathematics...

If you were talking about a set piece, you'd be right. It's common to see an opponent's most dangerous aerial threats being marked by multiple players or by an equally good header of the ball. However, you're talking about the phase after the set piece where our defensive line is pushing out, midfielders and attackers are running through to make sure they aren't behind Maguire who sets our offside line, to suggest Maguire should just follow Vestergaard around and ignore what's going on after the set piece is taken is ridiculous.
Yes that is exactly a top defender would do. They had not pushed out, he was still lurking around the 6 yard box, it is "A Mistake" not to mark him. He was always going to out jump any other United Defender.

Maquire might be a top defender, but that moment of sloppiness cost us the goal.
 

Jordan_mufc

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Yes that is exactly a top defender would do. They had not pushed out, he was still lurking around the 6 yard box, it is "A Mistake" not to mark him. He was always going to out jump any other United Defender.

Maquire might be a top defender, but that moment of sloppiness cost us the goal.
This comment has the hallmarks of someone who has never played a high-level game of football in their lives. You can't just waltz off and mark the tallest player on the pitch during open play. If he had, he would have left a gaping hole at the near post. Then we would all be blaming him for vacating his position.

It was clever play from Vestegaard to peel off of Maguire in the 2nd phase and attach himself to Lindelof. The CBs had no time to adjust, and after a accurately placed cross, Lindelof had no chance.

It happens.
 

romufc

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Maquire might be a top defender, but that moment of sloppiness cost us the goal.
Sloppiness? It was the second phase of a corner, you cannot just leave someone and find the tallest man to mark? what are you thinking?

It was clever play from Vestegaard to peel off of Maguire in the 2nd phase and attach himself to Lindelof. The CBs had no time to adjust, and after a accurately placed cross, Lindelof had no chance.
A lot of criticism on Lindelof, but when the ball is played the way it was a player with a running jump will always have the better of a CB back tracking.

Are we going to blame everygoal we concede on individual error? If so everyone should be having a go at AWB rather than Lindelof. If the cross was stopped then the goal wouldnt have happened. Then you can go back and even debate how we conceded a corner in the first place?

Lets be honest, we will concede goals stop blaming individuals.
 

Hammondo

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Hes been good on the ball, and hes been very calm. His defensive qualities are a bit questionable though.
 

tomaldinho1

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Yes that is exactly a top defender would do. They had not pushed out, he was still lurking around the 6 yard box, it is "A Mistake" not to mark him. He was always going to out jump any other United Defender.

Maquire might be a top defender, but that moment of sloppiness cost us the goal.
As another poster pointed out, in a non condescending way given I'm assuming none of us are professional footballers or coaches, that never happens in football.

It was a mistake in my mind not to push out further but there was very limited time to set an offside line but Vestergaard was surrounded by two other United players, at least one of them has to have the presence of mind to simply stand in front of him in my opinion as he was given free reign to drift away from the goal and because we stayed so deep he had a good run up to attack the cross in.

For me it's the usual issue of us playing too deep and DDG never coming for crosses - when the ball gets saved originally, we have so many bodies back and the only slight danger is Vestergaard. How often do teams float one to the back post in these types of scenarios, it's so common that I don't get why DDG isn't a bit more proactive because it would take so much pressure off our CBs in this regard if he came for these types of slow, looping crosses. Worst that can happen is they still score but with a high chance he gets clattered (which prompts a VAR check and potentially disallows an important goal) but it's better than just sitting his line and watching the ball go into the back of the net.
 

RedCurry

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He's proper class defender. I hope we find an experienced partner in Jan transfer window. Playing next to the other clowns we have is going to ruin yet another good player.
 

Adam-Utd

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Yes that is exactly a top defender would do. They had not pushed out, he was still lurking around the 6 yard box, it is "A Mistake" not to mark him. He was always going to out jump any other United Defender.

Maquire might be a top defender, but that moment of sloppiness cost us the goal.
:lol: he hoped his CB partner would deal with a simple aerial ball for the 2nd time in a week :wenger: 3rd time lucky I guess!

That goal is purely on Lindelof losing a duel.
 

Grande

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:lol: he hoped his CB partner would deal with a simple aerial ball for the 2nd time in a week :wenger: 3rd time lucky I guess!

That goal is purely on Lindelof losing a duel.
It’s really a lot more complicated. After the corner is cleared, everyone is naturally repositioning themselves to normal defence, so Vestergard gets off Maguire (which is natural), but he is the half second before the cross surrounded by two of our tallest players, Rashford and Pogba. Lindelöf is on the inside, but aware of the threat, pointing for Rashford and Pogba to follow him. Rashford is not a defender and not the most aware, so he slightly stupidly drifts off behind Lindelöf’s back, so Lindelöf doesn’t see that. But Pogba has it all in front of him and should step up, but Pogba is ... Pogba, so he just stands still watching like he’s prone to when the other team has the ball. Lindelöf is aware too late that Vestergard is alone, and has no chance getting into his body by then.

De Gea could also have come out, which isn’t his strength or his style. Also, we are slow to get out to press in that situation (can’t remember who that was). As it’s not a set piece directly, it’s not something that is easily practiced on in training either. The combination of five minor weaknesses combined in an unlucky way to leave a gaping hole, you could say. With the four goals shipped on two big mistakes in the last three games, we’ve had more than enough bad luck to make up for the Chelsea game.
 

SilverPaper on the Breeze

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Are there better defenders out there than Maguire? Yep, but there’s very few of them as there’s something of a dearth of quality centrebacks going round these days. The ones that are better, like Van Dijk and Varane, are unobtainable.
However, what I really like about Maguire is his character. He’s a leader, something we’ve lacked since Rio and Vidic declined. Jones is too much of a crock and Smalling was never much of leader. He’s already our defensive “boss” and he’s been here 5 minutes. The real question this season is who partners him.
Lindelof was our best centre half last season so deserves a chance, but if he continues being sub par, which he has thus far, then give Axel a try. At least it’s now Maguire plus one than throwing mediocrity together and hoping it will do.
They always say you build great sides from the back; Liverpool and City only got to the levels they’re currently at following Van Dijk and Laporte arriving respectively.
 

RedDevilCanuck

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He has been really good and he is simply excellent on the ball and takes alot of responsibility in starting attacks.

He and James and Martial have been our best players and it is not even close.

If anyone things McGuire has been poor they have an obvious agenda.
 

Sandikan

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He has been really good and he is simply excellent on the ball and takes alot of responsibility in starting attacks.

He and James and Martial have been our best players and it is not even close.

If anyone things McGuire has been poor they have an obvious agenda.
At least they can spell his name correctly though chief.
 

Adam-Utd

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It’s really a lot more complicated. After the corner is cleared, everyone is naturally repositioning themselves to normal defence, so Vestergard gets off Maguire (which is natural), but he is the half second before the cross surrounded by two of our tallest players, Rashford and Pogba. Lindelöf is on the inside, but aware of the threat, pointing for Rashford and Pogba to follow him. Rashford is not a defender and not the most aware, so he slightly stupidly drifts off behind Lindelöf’s back, so Lindelöf doesn’t see that. But Pogba has it all in front of him and should step up, but Pogba is ... Pogba, so he just stands still watching like he’s prone to when the other team has the ball. Lindelöf is aware too late that Vestergard is alone, and has no chance getting into his body by then.

De Gea could also have come out, which isn’t his strength or his style. Also, we are slow to get out to press in that situation (can’t remember who that was). As it’s not a set piece directly, it’s not something that is easily practiced on in training either. The combination of five minor weaknesses combined in an unlucky way to leave a gaping hole, you could say. With the four goals shipped on two big mistakes in the last three games, we’ve had more than enough bad luck to make up for the Chelsea game.
Pogba has 2 people behind him. Sorry not letting him get the blame for this one :lol:

At the end of the day you can make it as complicated as you want, but if he won the header we wouldn’t be talking about this.

Lindelof is noticeably weak in the air, this isn’t the first time and it won’t be last he costs us in an aerial duel.
 

Grande

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Pogba has 2 people behind him. Sorry not letting him get the blame for this one :lol:

At the end of the day you can make it as complicated as you want, but if he won the header we wouldn’t be talking about this.

Lindelof is noticeably weak in the air, this isn’t the first time and it won’t be last he costs us in an aerial duel.
The point is that there is no point assigning a huge proportion of blame to anyone in particular for the goal. There is a minor blame to a lot of people that cumulatively adds up.

You can’t increase the blame on someone in the situation based on previous history, that’s false logic.

Your argument that ‘if L won the header ...’ is silly, as it goes for everybody in the situation.
 

A-man

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The point is that there is no point assigning a huge proportion of blame to anyone in particular for the goal. There is a minor blame to a lot of people that cumulatively adds up.

You can’t increase the blame on someone in the situation based on previous history, that’s false logic.

Your argument that ‘if L won the header ...’ is silly, as it goes for everybody in the situation.
This is my conclusion as well. Lindelof should have shut down better, DDG should have moved from his line, Bissaka should have made a better effort to stop the cross, Rashford and Pogba should have prevented Vestergaards run and then the tactics: who marks who etc. You can put an "if" to all of those situations.
 

jackal&hyde

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He should have been the one to mark the 2m tall Vestegaard. Other then that, delighted with his contribution thus far. With Bisaka, we concede very few chances.
 

Halftrack

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Maguire should have covered yes, thats a mistake after Lindelof's first mistake. So no Maguire isnt to blame. They both are but Lindelof made the mistake first
Took this to a more appropriate thread.

"Lindelöf made the mistake first?" First of all: That's "nu-uh, you are" levels of reasoning. Secondly, why the feck does that matter? It's not as if it erases Maguire's mistake. Thirdly, Maguire made a mistake the moment Lindelöf moved to challenge for the header, by not moving to cover. Not that it's relevant, they fecked up in tandem. One's mistake compounded the other's. Had either one managed not to feck up doing something so basic, we wouldn't have conceded.
 

Ekeke

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Took this to a more appropriate thread.

"Lindelöf made the mistake first?" First of all: That's "nu-uh, you are" levels of reasoning. Secondly, why the feck does that matter? It's not as if it erases Maguire's mistake. Thirdly, Maguire made a mistake the moment Lindelöf moved to challenge for the header, by not moving to cover. Not that it's relevant, they fecked up in tandem. One's mistake compounded the other's. Had either one managed not to feck up doing something so basic, we wouldn't have conceded.
No, its saying that Maguire isnt called into action if Lindelof does a half decent job of attempting to deal with the ball in the air.

Its not "nu-uh" its called causality, look it up instead of being intentionally dim
 

Halftrack

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No, its saying that Maguire isnt called into action if Lindelof does a half decent job of attempting to deal with the ball in the air.

Its not "nu-uh" its called causality, look it up instead of being intentionally dim
Well that's just bad logic. "His mistake only mattered because someone else also made a mistake, hence the other person is more to blame." Could you imagine if that was actually a valid excuse?
 

Ekeke

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Well that's just bad logic. "His mistake only mattered because someone else also made a mistake, hence the other person is more to blame." Could you imagine if that was actually a valid excuse?
Again go look it up. Its a normal thing. You might not be
 

Halftrack

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Again go look it up. Its a normal thing. You might not be
Let me see if I've got this straight: Lindelöf's mistake causes Maguire's mistake. Therefore, had Lindelöf not made a mistake, then neither would Maguire?
 

Ekeke

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Let me see if I've got this straight: Lindelöf's mistake causes Maguire's mistake. Therefore, had Lindelöf not made a mistake, then neither would Maguire?
It wouldnt be a mistake, unless Lindelof messes up dealing with the header correct. And again he doesnt have to win the header, just needs to stop his man flicking it into the path of another player. He could even foul him if needed.