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2019-20 Performances


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5.9 Season Average Rating
Appearances
36
Clean sheets
14
Goals
2
Assists
1
Yellow cards
3

GaryLifo

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Of those who started, Maguire, Fred and Wan Bissaka were our three best players yesterday I thought. Maguire definitely tried to drive us on in the final 15 minutes.
 

Grande

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Not that I have gone through all the post before we signed him, but it was around 20% of the posters that rated him very highly (not far off VVD).
Most thought he was good, not £80m good, but that he was our only option.
Then, there were some few posters that thought he was overrated and his lack of mobility was to big an issue and would rather have us go for the likes of Ake, Konate, Milenkovic or Alderweireld.

As of now, the ones thinking that we should go for other players seem to be the ones that had the right opinion.
Or 100m on Koulibaly. I don’t agree on two counts. Firstly, I’d wager the ‘potential VVD’ posters were below 5%, and that’s including those who said ‘he’ll probably never be as good as VVD, but he could be as important for us given our current needs’.

The other is that even though I don’t necessarily think Maguire have played better than Lindelöf this season, I think both have played pretty well and been the most consistently good part of our team. Certainly not fault free, but I don’t look at Koulibaly, Ake, Alderweireld, etc and think we’d necessarily would have been better off with any of them in place of Maguire. (They would obviously not have a settling in period, being mere fantasy hypotheticals ...). So to claims of ‘being right’ is a tall order for me.
 

Fosu-Mens

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It’s easy to see only the weak sides, forget about the good sides, and think that someone else would have been better. We would never know. The four you mention also have weaknesses. Maybe United would be in a much worse situation now with any of them. I know for sure that Alderweireld hasn’t impressed on me this season.
They might have weaknesses, but their flaws are not as detrimental as Maguire's lack of mobility. Unless our aim is to continue to play Park the bus and counter-attacking football, which will not get us far. I don't think Alderweireld has been that bad and would have been a good partner with Smalling. the idea behind buying Alderweireld would have been to have more money to spend on upgrades for the rest of the squad... Like a midfielder or two.
 

A-man

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They might have weaknesses, but their flaws are not as detrimental as Maguire's lack of mobility. Unless our aim is to continue to play Park the bus and counter-attacking football, which will not get us far. I don't think Alderweireld has been that bad and would have been a good partner with Smalling. the idea behind buying Alderweireld would have been to have more money to spend on upgrades for the rest of the squad... Like a midfielder or two.
I personally think Maguire is much better than Alderweireld. I think the whole Tottenham central defence has been pretty poor this season, both in the league and in the CL. Another thing is that Ole probably wanted someone who is strong in the air, and Alderweireld is not very stroing there.
I agree Maguire has got a big weakness mobility, especially in how slow he is when caught on the wrong foot. Some teams try to pull him out to the side and when he is isolated he is not so strong man to man. It could be argued if the money had been better spent elsewhere, absolutely. I'm not sure where I strand it that question myself. I think the plan was not only to get CBs who are good with their feet, but also to build up a team over the next years with some new players but also from all the good academy players coming now. Having a CB couple that is relatively young, plus developing Tuanzebe was probably part of that plan.
 

Fosu-Mens

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Or 100m on Koulibaly. I don’t agree on two counts. Firstly, I’d wager the ‘potential VVD’ posters were below 5%, and that’s including those who said ‘he’ll probably never be as good as VVD, but he could be as important for us given our current needs’.

The other is that even though I don’t necessarily think Maguire have played better than Lindelöf this season, I think both have played pretty well and been the most consistently good part of our team. Certainly not fault free, but I don’t look at Koulibaly, Ake, Alderweireld, etc and think we’d necessarily would have been better off with any of them in place of Maguire. (They would obviously not have a settling in period, being mere fantasy hypotheticals ...). So to claims of ‘being right’ is a tall order for me.
Not VVD potential, but second best centreback in the EPL type of player. Looking at the first two pages of the thread after he signed, I'd say a majority thought he would be very good...

When we play as cautious as we do, with two midfielders protecting the defence, then they should be consistent. Compared to the rest of the players on the pitch, Lindelof and Maguire have been decent, but you can see that they struggle almost every time we are caught off balance. Our defensive approach is to drop deep and compress our team to mitigate certain deficiencies with our central defenders.

Regarding the players mentioned, it is all hypothetical as you state, so I can't really claim to be right (or wrong). Still, I think that the idea of having central defenders with obvious weaknesses in their game, like Maguire's lack of mobility or Lindelof's general lack of physicality, is not a good start for a long term rebuild.
 

Fosu-Mens

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I personally think Maguire is much better than Alderweireld. I think the whole Tottenham central defence has been pretty poor this season, both in the league and in the CL. Another thing is that Ole probably wanted someone who is strong in the air, and Alderweireld is not very stroing there.
I agree Maguire has got a big weakness mobility, especially in how slow he is when caught on the wrong foot. Some teams try to pull him out to the side and when he is isolated he is not so strong man to man. It could be argued if the money had been better spent elsewhere, absolutely. I'm not sure where I strand it that question myself. I think the plan was not only to get CBs who are good with their feet, but also to build up a team over the next years with some new players but also from all the good academy players coming now. Having a CB couple that is relatively young, plus developing Tuanzebe was probably part of that plan.
I would say that Alderweireld and Maguire are suited to different systems. Based on price and the type of football that I think will bring us back to the top (not low block counter-attacking football) Alderweireld would have been the better transfer.

The older he gets, the less mobile he becomes. There comes a time when a player is so immobile that he is not playable anymore (Mata).
 

Grande

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Not VVD potential, but second best centreback in the EPL type of player. Looking at the first two pages of the thread after he signed, I'd say a majority thought he would be very good...

When we play as cautious as we do, with two midfielders protecting the defence, then they should be consistent. Compared to the rest of the players on the pitch, Lindelof and Maguire have been decent, but you can see that they struggle almost every time we are caught off balance. Our defensive approach is to drop deep and compress our team to mitigate certain deficiencies with our central defenders.

Regarding the players mentioned, it is all hypothetical as you state, so I can't really claim to be right (or wrong). Still, I think that the idea of having central defenders with obvious weaknesses in their game, like Maguire's lack of mobility or Lindelof's general lack of physicality, is not a good start for a long term rebuild.
Fair enough. Atm it seems to me ‘second best CB in the league’ is not unrealistic, as to me there are none without weaknesses or who are head and shoulders above Maguire or Lindelof apart from VVD.

Neither do I think we have been particularily vulnerable to counters. If you count the chances we have allowed on counters this season, it’s not many, compared to other teams.

To me, our biggest defensive problem, apart from not being consistently gooed enough with high pressure, and lrelinquishing the ball esily at times, has been down to letting in ‘fluke goals’.

Now, I don’t believe fluke goals are fluke when they crop up regularly, but it’s mostly down to fine margins of finely tuned interplay, aggressiveness, confidence and well drilled tactics. Not so much down to individual weaknesses.
 

Son

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Maguire is quality. Easily one of our best players and an upgrade on what we had.

How about instead of expecting CB’s to hit defence splitting passes we invest in players who are actual playmakers and link play further up the pitch.

Only place he’s let us down so far has been his heading from set pieces but we can put that down to the coaches and just going with plan A too much this season. Easy to telegraph.
 

Fosu-Mens

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Fair enough. Atm it seems to me ‘second best CB in the league’ is not unrealistic, as to me there are none without weaknesses or who are head and shoulders above Maguire or Lindelof apart from VVD.

Neither do I think we have been particularily vulnerable to counters. If you count the chances we have allowed on counters this season, it’s not many, compared to other teams.

To me, our biggest defensive problem, apart from not being consistently gooed enough with high pressure, and lrelinquishing the ball esily at times, has been down to letting in ‘fluke goals’.

Now, I don’t believe fluke goals are fluke when they crop up regularly, but it’s mostly down to fine margins of finely tuned interplay, aggressiveness, confidence and well drilled tactics. Not so much down to individual weaknesses.
Laporte is the next best CB in the league by some margin.

The rest is difficult to "rank" based on personal preference and their suitability to different styles of play. Given that I think a team that sits deep and plays counter-attacking football is not going to go far in this day and age, Maguire does not fit with my view of what is needed in a centre back. And even among the "park the bus" types centrebacks, I think the likes of Dunk, Duffy and Matip are better than him. Lindelof would be a good centreback for a team that control the games, like City, but not for a team defending from crosses or unable to retain possession without risking counter-attacks regularly.

I prefer centrebacks that can hold their own in 1v1 against most attackers, decent in the air and are efficient on the ball. While VVD can do everything, the likes of Ake and Tomori are good approximations that can suit all types of football.
 

A-man

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I would say that Alderweireld and Maguire are suited to different systems. Based on price and the type of football that I think will bring us back to the top (not low block counter-attacking football) Alderweireld would have been the better transfer.

The older he gets, the less mobile he becomes. There comes a time when a player is so immobile that he is not playable anymore (Mata).
I dont think Alderweireld would have been an upgrade for many reasons. If Ole didn’t want to play Smalling, he needed someone who could dominate the air. Alderweireld is not that person. He is also too old.

I understand how people think too much was invested in the defence, AWB+ Maguire were costly, and before that Bailly and Lindelof. All together around 190 million. But it is not like United haven’t invested in other areas. Two expensive defenders joined in this transfer window and only one offensive player (James). But before that Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fred, Matic, and Mkhitaryan joined for about 370 million together.
 

Grande

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Laporte is the next best CB in the league by some margin.

The rest is difficult to "rank" based on personal preference and their suitability to different styles of play. Given that I think a team that sits deep and plays counter-attacking football is not going to go far in this day and age, Maguire does not fit with my view of what is needed in a centre back. And even among the "park the bus" types centrebacks, I think the likes of Dunk, Duffy and Matip are better than him. Lindelof would be a good centreback for a team that control the games, like City, but not for a team defending from crosses or unable to retain possession without risking counter-attacks regularly.

I prefer centrebacks that can hold their own in 1v1 against most attackers, decent in the air and are efficient on the ball. While VVD can do everything, the likes of Ake and Tomori are good approximations that can suit all types of football.
Your takes on centre backs are interesting reading and I get your points. I haven’t watched enough of City with Laporte, but I’m not entirely sure he would look as solid at United or Spurs.

I guess I see us now as not so much a counterattacking side as you seem to do. I see us as a team that seeks to strike quickly at imbalance, and who ideally want to press high much of thw time but not all of the time. And who are not well drilled enough yet to be able to stay high or medium high more than half the game, depending on opposition. Neither do I see Maguire as that immobile, just not particularily mobile. If he improves his reading of the game and confidence in his team mates, I think he can become a good building block for a top team. We’ll see. I prefer him to Ake at United. Comori is interesting to watch how he develops. I hope Tuanzebe can make similiar leaps soonish, but as of today Lindelöf and Maguire is not something I worry about, really. (I don’t worry much about money already spent neither.) I think of all the touted alternatives this summer (Koulibaly, Alderweireld, Milenkovic, not going to mention De Ligt), all of them would have looked worse for United at this point. Which is mostly guessing, obviously.
 

MikeKing

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He has had his ups and downs so far this season. Not been directly bad, just plenty average.
 

MS4

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He has been great.
We all knew Maguire, we all knew what we could except. And he is lived up to this expectations.
Just because he went for 80M does not make him better or worse than as if he had been sold for 40M
Just get that. Price does not determine how much a player is
 

Fosu-Mens

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Your takes on centre backs are interesting reading and I get your points. I haven’t watched enough of City with Laporte, but I’m not entirely sure he would look as solid at United or Spurs.

I guess I see us now as not so much a counterattacking side as you seem to do. I see us as a team that seeks to strike quickly at imbalance, and who ideally want to press high much of thw time but not all of the time. And who are not well drilled enough yet to be able to stay high or medium high more than half the game, depending on opposition. Neither do I see Maguire as that immobile, just not particularily mobile. If he improves his reading of the game and confidence in his team mates, I think he can become a good building block for a top team. We’ll see. I prefer him to Ake at United. Comori is interesting to watch how he develops. I hope Tuanzebe can make similiar leaps soonish, but as of today Lindelöf and Maguire is not something I worry about, really. (I don’t worry much about money already spent neither.) I think of all the touted alternatives this summer (Koulibaly, Alderweireld, Milenkovic, not going to mention De Ligt), all of them would have looked worse for United at this point. Which is mostly guessing, obviously.
Comparing Maguire to the other players you mention, Maguire is the only one that got a limitation in his game that will impact how you defend. The others might not be as good as Maguire in some areas, but they can be played in most situations. And with Maguire, we either have to be able to press extremely well and making it difficult to play passes behind a high line with Lindelof and Maguire(which is a suicidal tactic to start during the middle of the season) or we have to sit with a deep backline and counter(or strike quickly at an imbalance)... If we are going to play counter-attacking football, at least it should be proactive version of it like the other teams do, but this is considerably easier to do with a high defensive line --> Having a lot of space behind Lindelof and Maguire in addition to a keeper that does not like it outside his own 6-yard box... As I see it, there is a difference between the players we have bought and already got and the type of players you need to play the football that is most likely to yield success over time.
 

A-man

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Strange that he got that high rating. Didn't have to do much in terms of defending. Although he did drive forward well with the ball.
There is not really any good correlation between whoscored rating and actual performance. One obvious flaw is that it does not take in to consideration what team you play against.
 

Classical Mechanic

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There is not really any good correlation between whoscored rating and actual performance. One obvious flaw is that it does not take in to consideration what team you play against.
Come on, I think you're being silly. It does have blind spots and favours attackers more and all action defenders but I do feel you're a bit upset that it's algorithm isn't kind to Lindelof. For Lindelof's strengths and weaknesses states 'no significant strengths' and 'no significant weaknesses' which is actually how probably most posters on here feel about him. A jack of most trades but a master of none.

As for Maguire's rating in that game

115 touches
100 passes
96% pass completion
3/4 accurate long passes
1 key pass
0 dispossessions
0 unsuccessful touches
6 tackles
1 interceptions
2 clearances

Its no mystery as to why he got that rating.

They only give an overall rating for Premier League games and European games too so it won't go towards any of his overall totals.

Their PL team of the season so far is

Krul
Pereira-VVD-Soyuncu-Chilwell
Mane-KDB-Ndidi-Maddison
Jiminez-Vardy

Aside from Krul who will have been nominated by virtue of having a good save % from a lot of shots I think you could make a sound case for that being team of the season so far.
 

A-man

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Come on, I think you're being silly. It does have blind spots and favours attackers more and all action defenders but I do feel you're a bit upset that it's algorithm isn't kind to Lindelof. For Lindelof's strengths and weaknesses states 'no significant strengths' and 'no significant weaknesses' which is actually how probably most posters on here feel about him. A jack of most trades but a master of none.

As for Maguire's rating in that game

115 touches
100 passes
96% pass completion
3/4 accurate long passes
1 key pass
0 dispossessions
0 unsuccessful touches
6 tackles
1 interceptions
2 clearances

Its no mystery as to why he got that rating.

They only give an overall rating for Premier League games and European games too so it won't go towards any of his overall totals.

Their PL team of the season so far is

Krul
Pereira-VVD-Soyuncu-Chilwell
Mane-KDB-Ndidi-Maddison
Jiminez-Vardy

Aside from Krul who will have been nominated by virtue of having a good save % from a lot of shots I think you could make a sound case for that being team of the season so far.
To be honest you seem a bit obsessed with me and Lindelof. I did not even mention him.
Of course Maguire got many accurate passes, etc in a match like this. Personally I think his performances against Spurs and City were better. Why? Because I consider the opponents were better.
 

Classical Mechanic

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To be honest you seem a bit obsessed with me and Lindelof. I did not even mention him.
Of course Maguire got many accurate passes, etc in a match like this. Personally I think his performances against Spurs and City were better. Why? Because I consider the opponents were better.
You're one of the biggest agenda posters on the site in fairness. I feel you see most issues on here through the lens of Lindelof. Maguire dominated against Colcester and got a high score for it. He was rated in isolation of that match and against that opponent, there's nothing controversial about it.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Come on, I think you're being silly. It does have blind spots and favours attackers more and all action defenders but I do feel you're a bit upset that it's algorithm isn't kind to Lindelof. For Lindelof's strengths and weaknesses states 'no significant strengths' and 'no significant weaknesses' which is actually how probably most posters on here feel about him. A jack of most trades but a master of none.

As for Maguire's rating in that game

115 touches
100 passes
96% pass completion
3/4 accurate long passes
1 key pass
0 dispossessions
0 unsuccessful touches
6 tackles
1 interceptions
2 clearances

Its no mystery as to why he got that rating.

They only give an overall rating for Premier League games and European games too so it won't go towards any of his overall totals.

Their PL team of the season so far is

Krul
Pereira-VVD-Soyuncu-Chilwell
Mane-KDB-Ndidi-Maddison
Jiminez-Vardy

Aside from Krul who will have been nominated by virtue of having a good save % from a lot of shots I think you could make a sound case for that being team of the season so far.
The problem there is overrating passing the ball around under low pressure.
 

0le

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He has been great.
We all knew Maguire, we all knew what we could except. And he is lived up to this expectations.
Just because he went for 80M does not make him better or worse than as if he had been sold for 40M
Just get that. Price does not determine how much a player is
For better or worse, many people will be unable to forget the price tag when assessing the player.
 

A-man

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You're one of the biggest agenda posters on the site in fairness. I feel you see most issues on here through the lens of Lindelof. Maguire dominated against Colcester and got a high score for it. He was rated in isolation of that match and against that opponent, there's nothing controversial about it.
It’s a big difference to keep a clean sheet against let’s say Liverpool or City, than against Colchester. It’s fine that you somehow don’t agree with that, but how this opinion can be agenda posting, is beyond me. “Agenda” has become a buzz word you and some others post all the time.
 

A-man

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According to Whoscored:

The best United players in the PL so far (at least 5 app):

1. Rashford
2. McT
3. AWB
4. Pogba
5. Martial

The worst United players in the PL:
1. Tuanzebe (worst)
2. Mata
3. Greenwood
4. Lingard
5. DDG

The best United players in Europa League (min 2 app):
1. Greenwood
2. Young
3. Williams
4. Dalot
5. Jones

The worst United players in Europa League:
1. Chong (worst)
2. James
3. Laird
4. Pereira
5 Lingard
 

Classical Mechanic

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It’s a big difference to keep a clean sheet against let’s say Liverpool or City, than against Colchester. It’s fine that you somehow don’t agree with that, but how this opinion can be agenda posting, is beyond me. “Agenda” has become a buzz word you and some others post all the time.
Getting upset about his stats on whoscored against Colchester is weird. They are what they are. He dominated the game but no one cares because of the opposition, hence the paucity of discussion in this thread after the game. The vast majority of people are intelligent enough to add an opposition context to the stats produced by whoscored's algorithm. To say that whoscored's stats bear no resemblance to what happens on the pitch generally is just incorrect. I can only deduce that you think that because of your obsession with Lindelof and how he is a player that their algorithm does not favour.

It's a fine resource if you are able to view it with the correct scepticism and appreciate the many blind spots that it has.
 

Hammondo

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According to Whoscored:

The best United players in the PL so far (at least 5 app):

1. Rashford
2. McT
3. AWB
4. Pogba
5. Martial

The worst United players in the PL:
1. Tuanzebe (worst)
2. Mata
3. Greenwood
4. Lingard
5. DDG

The best United players in Europa League (min 2 app):
1. Greenwood
2. Young
3. Williams
4. Dalot
5. Jones

The worst United players in Europa League:
1. Chong (worst)
2. James
3. Laird
4. Pereira
5 Lingard
Yea there is no real value to be gotten from whoscored.
 

A-man

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Getting upset about his stats on whoscored against Colchester is weird. They are what they are. He dominated the game but no one cares because of the opposition, hence the paucity of discussion in this thread after the game. The vast majority of people are intelligent enough to add an opposition context to the stats produced by whoscored's algorithm. To say that whoscored's stats bear no resemblance to what happens on the pitch generally is just incorrect. I can only deduce that you think that because of your obsession with Lindelof and how he is a player that their algorithm does not favour.

It's a fine resource if you are able to view it with the correct scepticism and appreciate the many blind spots that it has.
Who is upset? Someone thought it was strange that he got that high rating. I wrote my view, that it is not corresponding to actual performance as for example the dignity of the opposition is not taken in to consideration. Then you jump in screaming agenda poster”, talking about Lindelof three posts in a row who was never even mentioned’ , and now you add that I am upset.


I have never said it is a poor source of information. The problem is the users who religously belive the overall score is corresponding to the performance.
 

Classical Mechanic

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According to Whoscored:

The best United players in the PL so far (at least 5 app):

1. Rashford
2. McT
3. AWB
4. Pogba
5. Martial

The worst United players in the PL:
1. Tuanzebe (worst)
2. Mata
3. Greenwood
4. Lingard
5. DDG

The best United players in Europa League (min 2 app):
1. Greenwood
2. Young
3. Williams
4. Dalot
5. Jones

The worst United players in Europa League:
1. Chong (worst)
2. James
3. Laird
4. Pereira
5 Lingard
I don't think there's all the much controversial about the top 5, who do you think should be in there exactly?

I think what you're demonstrating here though is your incapability to understand how the site works. Greenwood has such a low rating in the league, for example, because he made so many sub apps and subs have less time to perform the actions that register on the algorithm. Tuanzebe is another one who has made more sub apps than starts.

Here's an exercise for you to be a little more honest, why don't you ranking in the league for players that over 1000 minutes under their belt.

Whats your issue with the Euopa league stats for the best players?
 
Last edited:

A-man

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I don't think there's all the much controversial about the top 5, who do you think should be in there exactly?

I think what you're demonstrating here though is your incapability to understand how the site works. Greenwood has such a low rating in the league, for example, because he made so many sub apps and subs have less time to perform the actions that register on the algorithm. Tuanzebe is another one who has made sub apps than real starts.

Whats your issue with the Euopa league stats for the best players?
This is basically what I explained to you. You can’t just look at the stats.
 

A-man

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Sure but its a good resource if you understand how it works, its especially good for attacking players.
I agree it is a good source, even though some things can and should be questioned. The data is ok even though some definitions can be questioned and also the data collection sometimes. But that it will always be like that, so fine. It is more the overall score/ratings that comes from the data I question. First of all, does the data represent everything on the pitch? No, of course not. It does not include failed or successful offside traps/lines, communication, leadership, screening, etc. It does not include who you played against. And then in the end people have made the decisions of how much passing a ball 100 times should be worth compared to a goal.
 

sewey89

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Should’ve scored the header, but I thought he was pretty good today.
 

acnumber9

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If Watford wanted a more effective time wasting option than Ben Foster falling every time he got the ball they should’ve just give it to Maguire. Every fecking game he plays at walking pace and there’s no inspirational defending to make up for it. We’ve spent £80m on a downgrade. When he has done anything that has left you thinking that was outstanding defending there? Wank.