Has giving Ten Hag and Amorim too much time, resulted in us plummeting this low?

stevoc

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During the Ten Hag disaster class season of 23-24 and last season there were two common narratives. That kept popping up amongst fans and pundits.

United fans are sick of chopping and changing managers.
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United need a complete reset, get a modern manager and give them time to implement their own brand of football regardless of results.
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And it looks like Ineos have tried the latter twice now, first with Ten Hag and then currently with their own man, Amorim. But has the club just sitting idly by and letting two managers persevere with systems/styles that clearly weren't and don't appear to be working, broken the confidence of the majority of this squad of players?

While there are still a few holes in the squad, mostly in midfield. This is a good set of players and much better than the results that are being and have been served up since late 2023, surely?

In hindsight we should have pulled the trigger on Ten Hag in the summer of 2024 (arguably even sooner around Xmas of 2023). It's looking like it's becoming the same story with Ruben. In the past the club has been accused of being impatient, reactionary and having a revolving door of managers. But to be fair with that approach we never sank this low. Our worst finish between 2014 up until 2024 was 6th twice (and one of those because Jose priortised the Europa). A 6th place finish this season would be seen as great progress instead the abject failure that it was not so long ago. At this stage I doubt many people actually have faith Amorim will finish 6th or higher this season.
 
The problem goes beyond the manager to include those making football decisions generally.

How anyone thought we didn't need at least two quality midfielders this summer is crazy.

And you could say that for nearly every summer that's gone even since Fergie's later seasons.
 
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One million per cent. Disgraceful how Ten Hag and Ruben were allowed to continue after their seasons and even worse them given so much money. You can't keep sacking managers but if rather that than keep someone who's obviously awful.
 
Yes. Getting Ten Hag out in the summer last year would have meant a new manager looking to sign "his" players and hypothetically a full pre season trying to make sense of the stupid tactics and formations.

Now we are in the same boat as the start as last season.
 
The problem is when we change manager they come in with completely different styles yet they have players not suited and struggle to adapt.

Either get mourinho back in and he will make sure we put points on the board.

Or you bring in a coach someone with no defined philosophy but plays what suits the players he has. A Frank a Howe - a tactician with more than one idea
 
Yes completely. Spurs fired Ange even though he won them the first trophy in 30 years. We let ETH continue despite his abysmal season because he won the FA Cup.
We need to be more ruthless as a club if we're ever going to get back to the top. We have this romantic notion that all managers need is time and they'll magically turn to SAF. But managers shouldn't get the luxury of time. It's a performance sport.
 
Last couple of managers don't look like they had any fear of the sack even after disastrous results, that can't be a good thing
 
AFIABM said:
The problem goes beyond the manager to include those making football decisions generally.

How anyone thought we didn't need at least two quality midfielders this summer is crazy.

And you could say that for nearly every summer that's gone even since Fergie's later seasons.
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You could and yet during most of those seasons we never finished as low as 8th or 15th. We've also changed the entire footballing hierarcy of the club, so it can't be put down solely to the Glazers/Woodward incompetence any more. Ineos have bought well for the most part. The manager now has a good set of players at his disposal.
 
leontas said:
Yes completely. Spurs fired Ange even though he won them the first trophy in 30 years. We let ETH continue despite his abysmal season because he won the FA Cup.
We need to be more ruthless as a club if we're ever going to get back to the top. We have this romantic notion that all managers need is time and they'll magically turn to SAF. But managers shouldn't get the luxury of time. It's a performance sport.
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Thomas Frank has already improved Spurs, far far quicker than Amorim here too.
 
I don't think that too much or too little time is the problem. The problem is that club management have appointed managers with completely different philosophies, the current manager believing in a philosophy that doesn't suit competing against English opponents...even League Two opponents.
 
Yes, go the Chelsea route and sack them as soon as results turn consistently bad.
 
Giving time for the sake of it is a stupid notion.

Time should be earned. And even then you continue to assess if the guy looks capable of achieving the long term ambitions of the club. If not then get rid when a better candidate becomes available

We're too rigid and too sentimental in our view of managers. It's kinda sad really
 
Amorim deserved the benefit of the doubt to start this new season. It’s gone horribly wrong within 3 games (and a lot of you called it to be fair) but I think he deserved that chance.
 
lex talionis said:
I don't think that too much or too little time is the problem. The problem is that club management have appointed managers with completely different philosophies, the current manager believing in a philosophy that doesn't suit competing against English opponents...even League Two opponents.
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So what should the club do, tell him to change it up and abandon his philosophy or just sack him?
 
Way I see it, most clubs just sack and hire until they strike gold. We've been different because each manager hired has been given a grace period because of the mess he has inherited. Stuck in an endless loop. Liverpool got lucky with the hiring of Rodgers followed by Klopp, we will need something similar - probably with an added step of bringing in a manager to get us midtable first!
 
CM said:
Last couple of managers don't look like they had any fear of the sack even after disastrous results, that can't be a good thing
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Agreed. We should give managers time if they’ve shown something.

Ole could have been given more time. Even Jose, ETH, LVG… there’s an argument to be made for all of them, but what has Amorim shown at United that earns him the luxury of more time?
 
Yes. We’ve repeated the exact same mistake with Amorim we did with Ten hag. Neither should have been allowed to continue after the disaster of a season.
 
We need to become fecking ruthless! No more fecking about with rebuilds and giving managers hundreds of millions to spend on players for their system. Sign players the club wants and tell the manager to get on with it, they’ve got 6 months to a season to show they can get a tune out of the squad otherwise they’re out the door!
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Way I see it, most clubs just sack and hire until they strike gold. We've been different because each manager hired has been given a grace period because of the mess he has inherited. Stuck in an endless loop. Liverpool got lucky with the hiring of Rodgers followed by Klopp, we will need something similar - probably with an added step of bringing in a manager to get us midtable first!
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Spot on, and I think because of the Glazers incompetence and their (and to be fair the managers) shocking recruitment all were probably doomed to fail. But we seem to be operating like a competent club under Ineos and making mostly good signings.

So under this set-up replacing the manager should be easier and cause much less upheaval.
 
leontas said:
Yes completely. Spurs fired Ange even though he won them the first trophy in 30 years. We let ETH continue despite his abysmal season because he won the FA Cup.
We need to be more ruthless as a club if we're ever going to get back to the top. We have this romantic notion that all managers need is time and they'll magically turn to SAF. But managers shouldn't get the luxury of time. It's a performance sport.
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What Spurs did seemed harsh but it’s what most clubs do, you recognise that your manager has no leeway and a bad start the following season means you’ve got to sack him.

We’ve imploded 3 games in, it’s too early for a caretaker or an interim to see out the season, too late in the transfer window and too much of a shit show to have your pick of the candidates.

So what will we do, drag it out in the hope it somehow gets better even though everyone knows it won’t. Before you know it another season is written off and it’s back to square one.
 
Moyes was the only time we actually reacted quickly.

Van Gaal should have been sacked after the Stoke loss on Boxing Day, but we let it drag on and missed out on champions league football.

Mourinho should have been sacked after that disastrous Sevilla game.

Ole should have been shown the door after the 5-0 home loss to Liverpool.

ETH should have been sacked after the FA Cup final.
 
stevoc said:
You could and yet during most of those seasons we never finished as low as 8th or 15th. We've also changed the entire footballing hierarcy of the club, so it can't be put down solely to the Glazers/Woodward incompetence any more. Ineos have bought well for the most part. The manager now has a good set of players at his disposal.
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I disagree that they have bought well, they have completely ignored the midfield this summer, and what they did spend on it last summer, they wasted.

It is one of the most crucial areas of the pitch, and the club think they can field options that have no mobility nor ability to progress the ball there. Alarming.
 
Every new manager needs time but there has to be some green shoots after a couple of months. There was practically nothing from Ruben. The only game in the PL that gave me any hope was the draw V Liverpool. But it was a total one off. After 27 league games we hadn't shown as sign of improvement.
 
Bojan11 said:
Moyes was the only time we actually reacted quickly.

Van Gaal should have been sacked after the Stoke loss on Boxing Day, but we let it drag on and missed out on champions league football.

Mourinho should have been sacked after that disastrous Sevilla game.

Ole should have been shown the door after the 5-0 home loss to Liverpool.

ETH should have been sacked after the FA Cup final.
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Nowhere near quickly enough. The Everton game at OT should've been the end of him.

Could've salvaged top 4 that season.
 
leontas said:
Yes completely. Spurs fired Ange even though he won them the first trophy in 30 years. We let ETH continue despite his abysmal season because he won the FA Cup.
We need to be more ruthless as a club if we're ever going to get back to the top. We have this romantic notion that all managers need is time and they'll magically turn to SAF. But managers shouldn't get the luxury of time. It's a performance sport.
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After Ten Hag, the very LAST thing this team needed was a new coach with an unconventional system from an inferior league. But here we are.

The system has been completely exposed already in England. It almost looks designed to lose games.

This is a very extreme situation and it needs to be sorted. As embarrassing as it is to fire Amorim, it has to happen. Until Amorim is moved , i have ZERO expectation of winning games. They all look and feel the same. Even the Asia tour games and losses looked this way. It doesn't matter who we are playing or what players we have, this system is a failure. A complete abomination.

How can this possibly continue ? This system means guaranteed relegation. Even relegation from championship. It isn't bad luck or bad goaltending. Every , single , game looks destined to lose. And every player can feel it before the game even starts. And that's why we have players missing penalty shots.

Hire Glasner or someone like that.
 
AFIABM said:
I disagree that they have bought well, they have completely ignored the midfield this summer, and what they did spend on it last summer, they wasted.

It is one of the most crucial areas of the pitch, and the club think they can field options that have no mobility nor ability to progress the ball there. Alarming.
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But that's a different issue. I'm saying the players they've identified to sign have been good players/successful for the most part.

Yes we could do with more reinforcements, but then that's the case most summers even during Fergies time.
 
Every manager bar maybe Moyes was given too long here.

LVG should have gone in December 2015 but stayed on, and we did win an FA Cup to be fair.

Mourinho should have gone in summer of 2018 but was allowed to stumble on until November

Ole should have gone summer of 2021 but was allowed to stumble on until October/November

ETH should have gone summer of 2024 but was allowed to stumble on until October/November

And now Amorim, who should have gone summer of 2025 has been allowed to go into a new season and feck that up too.
 
CM said:
Last couple of managers don't look like they had any fear of the sack even after disastrous results, that can't be a good thing
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Not only this, both were allowed to tear down squads and rebuild them again.
 
stevoc said:
But that's a different issue. I'm saying the players they've identified to sign have been good players/successful for the most part.

Yes we could do with more reinforcements, but then that's the case most summers even during Fergies time.
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The issue as I see it is flawed thinking in terms of the prioritisation, rather than simply numbers.

And if budget is a concern, and a £100 million offer comes along for a 31 year old player who you no longer think is good enough for his main position, you take it and use those funds to rebuild more areas of the team. You don't beg that player to stay then play him out of position.

Not only that, but if you have budget problems, perhaps it's wiser to look more widely than the premier League, where the going rate for players in enormously high, apart from when United are the sellers.

Finally, this manager's shortcomings were evident by the end of the Europa League final. Now it seems they will likely part ways shortly into the season. So they are making the same mistakes each summer.
 
AFIABM said:
The problem goes beyond the manager to include those making football decisions generally.

How anyone thought we didn't need at least two quality midfielders this summer is crazy.

And you could say that for nearly every summer that's gone even since Fergie's later seasons.
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Agreed.

Alot of the managers have been good but the recruitment as far as implemea proactive system of play is what is holding the club back. Of course the managers themselves are aslo to blame for the poor recruitment but unless the club realises that until they create a strong foundation when it comes to build up play and also defending transitions in a higher line we will carry on punching way below the potential the club has. And I keep saying this repeatedly, but you need a high level of CBs and midfielders who will provide the heavy lifting for the team which will provide the platform for the rest of the team to thrive. Any chance ten Hag had of redemption last season was shattered as soon as Wilcox and co decided to sign Ugarte who was a bad fit for the team as far as playing a more dominant brand of football.
 
In Amorim case, no. He did badly when took over mid season, so there is some benefit of doubt he may turn it around after transfer window and pre season. However, looks like Amorim hasn’t improved us. If we made the decision with a good replacement soon, the season can be salvageable.

Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole, ETH. Yes.
 
Bojan11 said:
Moyes was the only time we actually reacted quickly.

Van Gaal should have been sacked after the Stoke loss on Boxing Day, but we let it drag on and missed out on champions league football.

Mourinho should have been sacked after that disastrous Sevilla game.

Ole should have been shown the door after the 5-0 home loss to Liverpool.

ETH should have been sacked after the FA Cup final.
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ETH should have went after the 7-0 to Liverpool (Or was that after)
 
stevoc said:
But that's a different issue. I'm saying the players they've identified to sign have been good players/successful for the most part.
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People are being very kind to Ineos era signings. Firstly, the ones just signed this summer are a question mark who can't be judged yet, and yet we have people declaring it a great window like they do every summer, before we've seen any evidence on the pitch.

Secondly, we've got worse as a team during their era of signings. That suggests Ineos era signings aren't the roaring success the fans claim them to be.
 
ti vu said:
In Amorim case, no. He did badly when took over mid season, so there is some benefit of doubt he may turn it around after transfer window and pre season. However, looks like Amorim hasn’t improved us. If we made the decision with a good replacement soon, the season can be salvageable.

Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole, ETH. Yes.
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But I'm specifically talking about Ten Hag and Amorim here. They've both been given more leeway than any other manager post Fergie. Ten Hag would have been sacked 3 times over under Woodward and I don't think we'd have retained a manager who finished 15th pre Ineos.
 
The managers are given too much time because the board are protecting themselves. Who mad the ridiculous decision to bring in Amorim whilst our existing players didn’t suit the system and rushed him in mid-season when the manager didn’t want to join? Our CEO. We also lost Ashworth because of the situation as well.

Prior to this they didn’t sack Ten Hag at the right time. In fact they extended his contact and then signed even more players for his system. Anyone thinking INEOS has a plan must be kidding themselves. The same mistakes are being made as they were under Woodward. Stop giving the managers so much control over the club.
 
leontas said:
Yes completely. Spurs fired Ange even though he won them the first trophy in 30 years. We let ETH continue despite his abysmal season because he won the FA Cup.
We need to be more ruthless as a club if we're ever going to get back to the top. We have this romantic notion that all managers need is time and they'll magically turn to SAF. But managers shouldn't get the luxury of time. It's a performance sport.
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The fans are also to blame though, a lot of United fans were very vocal about wanting Ten Hag to stay in the aftermath of the FA Cup final, getting sucked into the media-hating narrative you see in politics when the media were only telling the truth that Ten Hag had done a terrible job in the league. The level of fan reaction seemed to force Ratcliffe’s hand.

Also Ten Hag’s appointment in the first place seemed heavily impacted by fan sentiment, Gary Neville put out a Twitter poll of him or Poch and Ten Hag was overwhelming winner, similar here and other places. A lot of loud calls for Ten Hag. The leadership figures clearly keep an eye on this sort thing. So the fans should take some of the blame too.
 
No it's giving the players too much time, some of these guys will never be top level players, that's why they are at a down on it's luck United pretending to be top players.

Nobody was surprised by that from Onana tonight, he should have been sold and replaced in the summer. Bayandir's not much better, Shaw and Casemiro are semi-retired, Ugarte can't cut it, , Dalot's a mistake waiting to happen, and on and on.

Only good thing at the minute is guys like Yoro, Mbeumo and Cunha seem to be pointing towards the club taking a step in the right direction. Worrying thing is how much a guy like Amad has dropped off so massively this season.

The system might not work, but even a bad system should see a PL team beat a League two team.
 
Dominos said:
People are being very kind to Ineos era signings. Firstly, the ones just signed this summer are a question mark who can't be judged yet, and yet we have people declaring it a great window like they do every summer, before we've seen any evidence on the pitch.
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Fair but don't see Cunha or M'Beumo being failures here. Both are already PL proven.

Dominos said:
Secondly, we've got worse as a team during their era of signings. That suggests Ineos era signings aren't the roaring success the fans claim them to be.
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We have but I don't think you can plame that on Yoro, Mazraoui and DeLigt who I think have been solid signings. Zirkzee and Ugarte were ok signings.
 
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