Has giving Ten Hag and Amorim too much time, resulted in us plummeting this low?

[NZT-One]

I get what you're saying but results are the most important thing long term. The results of 2 seasons ago are affecting the clubs fortunes this year. This seasons results will affect the clubs finances 2-3 years from now. We can't just feck off 2-3 seasons at the alter of a revamp. After all Ten Hag spent 2.5 years, £550m and 5 transfer windows getting rid of bad apples, resetting the culture and modernising the squad. He was the wrong guy to do that obviously, but we wasted years going down that rabbit hole. We can't rinse repeat that cycle every 2-3 years in the hope we've finally found the right guy.

You are right but ETH didn't really finish the job. He put all his apples towards maximizing Rashford and Bruno, players that also Ole put all his fortunes on. The culture hasn't been reset, that is hopefully happening now with all the high earners falling away (a process I'd have happily accelerated by also axing Maguire, Shaw and Casemiro). I agree with you, results are important and they have an effect on the ability of doing things, but lets just wait for a minute - with all the stuff happening in the last few years, we were able to throw 200 million at attackers this year, brought in two of the hyped PL players of last year and a supposedly very good talent from abroad. So apparently, results of the last 4 years weren't having too much of a crippling effect. I don't want to throw seasons away, don't get me wrong, but when I see minutes going to players like Maguire, Shaw and Casemiro, it does nothing for our future AND it doesn't do anything for our recent success.

I am sure, we agree that we have to find some form of balance.

A lot of the players we've signed and played under Ten Hag and to an extent Amorim last have looked worse here than they did at their previous clubs. So while it's convenient it can't all be down to the players just not being good enough. There aren't many player we've signed that weren't highly rated and being chased by other top clubs.

I think, that conundrum is due to the simplistic way of viewing player as just good or bad. Players like Sancho looked very good for Dortmund, as so many players did - this club is able to develop players and it creates environments for them to thrive. In the sense of coming up with systems that maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Same can be said for Cunha and Mbeumo probably as well. Playing in a well organized team, having a role that really suits a skillset, that does wonders for a players reputation and for "how good they look". But if you don't understand, why that is, what the staples of their environment were, you end up missing out. For years at this point, Manchester United is kind of the Anti-Dortmund. Dortmund back in the day had so many players look really good, only for them to leave them without having the greatest of success. With us, many players were brought in that are good and talented players but they look worse and worse because the environment doesn't give them anything. The last thing we had in that sense was the Bruno-Rashford-axis. And the moment it became clear that this isn't going to cut it at the very top, we ended up with nothing at all.

 

[NZT-One]

We should never lose sight of the fact the Glazers are the cause, you can't drain £1b from any club and couple it with shit recruitment and expect things to be fine.

While thats definitely a factor that doesn't help the situation, there is absolutely no point opening that door as it won't help with any matter. The dimension of the failure of United of the last year is very much connected with the amount of money blown away while coming out with nothing. The amount of money we had or have wasn't the issue. Having no plan how to spend it, is the issue.

 

[eire-red]

Not sacking EtH in the summer after the FA Cup was clearly a mistake. Hiring Amorim is starting to look like a mistake.

The question now is if the board is not pulling the trigger on Amorim because they don't want to look like they've made a mistake (compounding the original error) or do they truly believe in Amorim's methods?

 

[Camy89]

I’ve got £10 on United to get relegated. 50/1.

Reckon that’s what it’ll take for the executives to feck off. This club is exhausting to support on every level. They do nothing right and it seriously takes it toll on the fans.

 

[tomaldinho1]

While thats definitely a factor that doesn't help the situation, there is absolutely no point opening that door as it won't help with any matter. The dimension of the failure of United of the last year is very much connected with the amount of money blown away while coming out with nothing. The amount of money we had or have wasn't the issue. Having no plan how to spend it, is the issue.

Agreed - that an emotionally getting invested in this idea of managers turning things around. We've all done this as fans but a senior management should know better.

Mou should have gone second summer, Ole should really have not been made perm until the season was over and options assessed(fairly certain Ancelotti was available that summer and then went Everton for a random example), Ragnick was just pointless given Murtough was never going to sack himself, ETH should have gone post FA cup, Amorim should have gone post EL final.

I like Amorim but he's his own worst enemy. I find it hard to think there are not rifts in the dressing room, particularly with his weird presser after the game and there must be some kind of scar tissue from last season, you can't just laugh off being outplayed week in week out. He had to start fast, he hasn't - I think they'll give him the next 3 games to turn it around.

 

[Doracle]

In the past the club has been accused of being impatient, reactionary and having a revolving door of managers.

Have we ever been accused of that? In almost all cases post Fergie we either waited too long to sack the manager or probably got it just about right. I can’t think of any situations where the trigger was pulled too early.

 

[lex talionis]

So what should the club do, tell him to change it up and abandon his philosophy or just sack him?

If Ruben refuses the former, proceed with the latter.

The alternative, doing nothing while we continue to drop down the table into a relegation fight, seems to me a far worse alternative. Relegation would be disastrous for Manchester United.

 

[NZT-One]

Agreed - that an emotionally getting invested in this idea of managers turning things around. We've all done this as fans but a senior management should know better.

Mou should have gone second summer, Ole should really have not been made perm until the season was over and options assessed(fairly certain Ancelotti was available that summer and then went Everton for a random example), Ragnick was just pointless given Murtough was never going to sack himself, ETH should have gone post FA cup, Amorim should have gone post EL final.

I like Amorim but he's his own worst enemy. I find it hard to think there are not rifts in the dressing room, particularly with his weird presser after the game and there must be some kind of scar tissue from last season, you can't just laugh off being outplayed week in week out. He had to start fast, he hasn't - I think they'll give him the next 3 games to turn it around.

I agree. Can see that as well. It is mightily discouraging though. Because of the names mentioned, Iraola and lately Glasner, they are mostly in the exact same bracket as ETH and Amorim were when we started to chase them. Fecking hell... Only the sum of money we've thrown into the fire for compensation and payouts for managers probably would have gotten us an A-lister for midfield at this point

 

[tomaldinho1]

I agree. Can see that as well. It is mightily discouraging though. Because of the names mentioned, Iraola and lately Glasner, they are mostly in the exact same bracket as ETH and Amorim were when we started to chase them. Fecking hell... Only the sum of money we've thrown into the fire for compensation and payouts for managers probably would have gotten us an A-lister for midfield at this point

I think iraola is different, he just understand where modern football has gone - it's as much a running game as it is a skill based game these days. The fact he has done it in the PL means everything, he knows what it will take from a fitness/conditioning perspective and I feel like he improves almost everyone he works with.

 

[davidmichael]

Its a bit of a broken argument because the suggestion is that if we just hold on long enough, everyone will become Sir Alex, which is obviously not remotely within the realm of reality

But Sir Alex did in fact almost lose his job before success came

I’m old enough to remember Sir Alex’s early years but it was a different time in football as English clubs had no European football, accountancy and financial rules weren’t part of the game and by 1990 when we won the FA Cup we’d spent 22 years being nothing more than a cup team that was relegated in the 70’s and the highest we’d finished in two decades was third.

There’s also the fact that we’ll never see the likes of Sir Alex or even Webber’s longevity at a club ever again because there’s too much money at stake for clubs in the PL and in Europe so now the average cycle between a PL coach being hired and fired is less than a year and half, Sir Alex was and forever will be an anomaly so we need to stop thinking we’ll ever find that long term success under one coach again.

There was never talk of Sir Alex losing the dressing room in the 80’s or falling out with players other than Gordon Strachan over something that happened at Aberdeen and Paul McGrath over his drink problem whereas Amorim has fallen out with countless players after publicly throwing them under the bus and alienating others by his refusal to change a single thing system or tactics wise.

We’ve never won two games in a row under Amorim and only won 7 out of I think 30 under him in the league with 3 or maybe 4 being against the relegated teams, there should be zero comparisons to Sir Alex as Amorim has simply been an absolute disaster from start to finish and has done more damage to the damage done under ETH so should be sacked and us bring in a proven quality DOF to oversee our next permanent coach and implement a long term club system to avoid the constant changing of system from coach to coach and stop requiring overhaul after overhaul player wise.

 

[NZT-One]

I think iraola is different, he just understand where modern football has gone - it's as much a running game as it is a skill based game these days. The fact he has done it in the PL means everything, he knows what it will take from a fitness/conditioning perspective and I feel like he improves almost everyone he works with.

Don't know too much about him but if that is the case, that certainly is a useful trait to have. What I always worry though, is how do such people fare at a club as much in the limelight as Manchester United is. It is one thing to get Rayo Vallecano or Bournemouth players to run more, but how will he fare dealing with different characters and entitlements.

 

[stevoc]

No mate, you said "many "of our signings were chased by other top clubs.

You've since highlighted a few that had some reported interest that I don't believe was particularly concrete (one Ornstein report on Ronaldo the media machine latching on to Fred doesn't equate to "many players being highly rated by top clubs"), and one half-arsed bid from PSG for Hojlund.

Which is true, what are you actually arguing against here? Jesus Christ.

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it a fact.

I'm not denying that there could have been some level of interest in some of those players, but it wasn't "many" of them, and it also obviously matters what that level of interest is if you're making assertions about how "highly" other clubs rated the players we're buying to go straight into the first team.

You've misinterpreted my point here mate and read way too much into it. I actually said many of them were highly rated and chased by other clubs. I never mentioned how highly any particular club chased any particular player. And that's such a silly point to make as neither of us would have the first clue how highly any club rates any player without inside knowledge.

You've also ignored the point that players looking good in Serie A/Bundesliga/wherever and not maintaining that level in the Premier League is a fairly common occurrence, so alleged interest from other clubs is

I've not ignored it, I've also not claimed claimed to disagree with that mate.

 

[stevoc]

You are right but ETH didn't really finish the job. He put all his apples towards maximizing Rashford and Bruno, players that also Ole put all his fortunes on. The culture hasn't been reset, that is hopefully happening now with all the high earners falling away (a process I'd have happily accelerated by also axing Maguire, Shaw and Casemiro). I agree with you, results are important and they have an effect on the ability of doing things, but lets just wait for a minute - with all the stuff happening in the last few years, we were able to throw 200 million at attackers this year, brought in two of the hyped PL players of last year and a supposedly very good talent from abroad. So apparently, results of the last 4 years weren't having too much of a crippling effect. I don't want to throw seasons away, don't get me wrong, but when I see minutes going to players like Maguire, Shaw and Casemiro, it does nothing for our future AND it doesn't do anything for our recent success.

Well it is obviously having a significant effect, as we didn't have the money to sign Baleba to replace Casemiro.

We're still Manchester United and will still able to sign players and spend more money than most. But that will decrease year on year if we continue to struggle in mid-table and lower. No CL money, no EL money and less money from sponsors will absolutely have an effect on a club a billion in debt and looking to build a new stadium.

 

[Alex99]

Which is true, what are you actually arguing against here? Jesus Christ.

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it a fact.



You've misinterpreted my point here mate and read way too much into it. I actually said many of them were highly rated and chased by other clubs. I never mentioned how highly any particular club chased any particular player. And that's such a silly point to make as neither of us would have the first clue how highly any club rates any player without inside knowledge.




I've not ignored it, I've also not claimed claimed to disagree with that mate.

You've claimed that many of our players were highly rated and chased by other clubs and your proof of that is some reported interest in Fred, Ornstein reporting Ronaldo to City, and a half-arsed bid from PSG for Hojlund to warm their bench.

In the last three seasons, where was the interest in Dorgu, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Mount, Onana, Malacia, Eriksen and Antony (or even Casemiro, for that matter)?

Going back, who else was chasing van de Beek, Telles, Dan James, Wan-Bissaka, Maguire, Dalot, etc.?

If it's not just a case of it being absolute bollocks, it's simply not remotely backed up by any evidence that "many of our signings" were highly rated or chased by other clubs, which you've just admitted yourself. Any assertion that these players were rated or chased by other clubs is just wild speculation on your part.

 

[stevoc]

Have we ever been accused of that? In almost all cases post Fergie we either waited too long to sack the manager or probably got it just about right. I can’t think of any situations where the trigger was pulled too early.

I'd agree but yes think back to after the FA Cup final and Gary Neville and other pundits saying United fans are sick of constant chopping and changing of managers, they need to have patientce with a manager and let them implement his idea etc.

 

[NZT-One]

Well it is obviously having a significant effect, as we didn't have the money to sign Baleba to replace Casemiro.

We had enough money to go for Mbeumo and even Sesko, so the money not being there doesn't the situation, priorities were set differently, which to me indicates, that the magnitude of the issue in midfield wasn't understood. We've spent 200 million, thats a lot - I'd consider it a little too easy to just say "maan, I'd love it to have 300 million to spend so we can finally bring in 4 players" (and still forgot about the GK ^^)

We're still Manchester United and will still able to sign players and spend more money than most. But that will decrease year on year if we continue to struggle in mid-table and lower. No CL money, no EL money and less money from sponsors will absolutely have an effect on a club a billion in debt and looking to build a new stadium.

I agree. And we seemingly have the same objective: I think, the best way to success above midtable is to catch up with the times, make sure, we set the squad up for the future, go through the fire that implementing a risky tactic like pressing presents and then improve incrementally. To me, thats the most sensible approach and just switching managers without really having a plan who would be a clear improvement, seems a little too hopeful to me. I'd accept it, as I said, as long as we make sure, the new one is as modern as ETH and Amorim and not a feelgood merchant as others were in the past... And thats me saying that fully realizing that to reach the highest highs (at some point in the future) we probably need such a feelgood guy again. But right now, we have to make sure to remedy the technical and methodical issues at squad level, basics like workrate, organisation, ball retention, moving forwards and backwards as a team.

 

[stevoc]

You've claimed that many of our players were highly rated and chased by other clubs and your proof of that is some reported interest in Fred, Ornstein reporting Ronaldo to City, and a half-arsed bid from PSG for Hojlund to warm their bench.

Those were 3 of the names you mentioned, I'm sure there's other proof out there for other players.

In the last three seasons, where was the interest in Dorgu, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Mount, Onana, Malacia, Eriksen and Antony (or even Casemiro, for that matter)?

Ugarte, Deligt, Mount, Mazraoui, Onana, Eriksen and Casemiro were actually signed by and played for other top clubs mate. So you can't be seriously trying to claim that they weren't highy rated player or chased by other top clubs, surely? Are you really saying Casemiro wasn't highly rated circa 2022?

Dorgu and Zirkzee I have no idea. Malacia probably not, but I did say most not all.

Going back, who else was chasing van de Beek, Telles, Dan James, Wan-Bissaka, Maguire, Dalot, etc.?

If it's not just a case of it being absolute bollocks, it's simply not remotely backed up by any evidence that "many of our signings" were highly rated or chased by other clubs, which you've just admitted yourself. Any assertion that these players were rated or chased by other clubs is just wild speculation on your part.

Van de Beek was wanted by Real. Telles no idea, Maguire was wanted by City, Dalot was highly and apparently the best young right back in his age group in Europe according to Jose.

But sure you will choose to not believe any of that, I imagine instead you think United have somehow been scouting and identifying players that no other clubs are interested in.

Right you're dragging the thread off topic with your tangent, stop spouting bollocks.

 

[Winrar]

Not sacking EtH in the summer after the FA Cup was clearly a mistake. Hiring Amorim is starting to look like a mistake.

The question now is if the board is not pulling the trigger on Amorim because they don't want to look like they've made a mistake (compounding the original error) or do they truly believe in Amorim's methods?

The board seemingly clinging to a classic sunk cost fallacy seems infinitely worse than the appointment itself. It's not like we're the only club who's ever had to deal with failed managerial appointments.

 

[stevoc]

We had enough money to go for Mbeumo and even Sesko, so the money not being there doesn't the situation, priorities were set differently, which to me indicates, that the magnitude of the issue in midfield wasn't understood. We've spent 200 million, thats a lot - I'd consider it a little too easy to just say "maan, I'd love it to have 300 million to spend so we can finally bring in 4 players" (and still forgot about the GK ^^)

I didn't understand why we went for M'Beumo to be honest when we already had Amad and Bruno who could play right 10. That money would have been better spent on a midfielder.

I agree. And we seemingly have the same objective: I think, the best way to success above midtable is to catch up with the times, make sure, we set the squad up for the future, go through the fire that implementing a risky tactic like pressing presents and then improve incrementally. To me, thats the most sensible approach and just switching managers without really having a plan who would be a clear improvement, seems a little too hopeful to me. I'd accept it, as I said, as long as we make sure, the new one is as modern as ETH and Amorim and not a feelgood merchant as others were in the past... And thats me saying that fully realizing that to reach the highest highs (at some point in the future) we probably need such a feelgood guy again. But right now, we have to make sure to remedy the technical and methodical issues at squad level, basics like workrate, organisation, ball retention, moving forwards and backwards as a team.

I agree that the style of play needed modernising but I just don't think that needed to be at the expense of staying relatively competitive. I see no reason a good coach couldn't keep this squad of players around 4th-8th while implementing his ideas.

 

[groovyalbert]

I think it's too easy to clump them into the same category.

ETH actively bought players that made us worse. That was at the heart of his downfall. Tactically he as ok, it was just the players he had in those positions were really poor.

Amorim's signings have either showed promise or are too early to tell. Generally though, I think we would all look at the likes of Heaven, Cunha, Mbuemo, Sesko and Dorgu with more optimism than not. His issue is his rigidity and fact our weakest areas on the pitch are being covered by bad players from the past regime.

The main issue at the club is the fact our board simply can't move on deadwood - I think this is killing us/undermining all attempts at a rebuild and reset. We have a bloated squad with some of our biggest earners not allowed anywhere near the first team. It must be such a weird place right now. You've basically got two attacking units - one who is in favour the other who is ostracised.

 

[Alex99]

Those were 3 of the names you mentioned, I'm sure there's other proof out there for other players.



Ugarte, Deligt, Mount, Mazraoui, Onana, Eriksen and Casemiro were actually signed by and played for other top clubs mate. So you can't be seriously trying to claim that they weren't highy rated player or chased by other top clubs, surely? Are you really saying Casemiro wasn't highly rated circa 2022?

Dorgu and Zirkzee I have no idea. Malacia probably not, but I did say most not all.



Van de Beek was wanted by Real. Telles no idea, Maguire was wanted by City, Dalot was highly and apparently the best young right back in his age group in Europe according to Jose.

But sure you will choose to not believe any of that, I imagine instead you think United have somehow been scouting and identifying players that no other clubs are interested in.

Right you're dragging the thread off topic with your tangent, stop spouting bollocks.

Again, who fecking cares what they did before we signed them? Top clubs giving us their cast offs isn't proof that they were wanted or rated by top clubs when we signed them, which is precisely what I'm disputing.

As for "United scouting and identifying players no other [top] clubs are interested in" - yes, I think that's somehow become the case. We allegedly scouted something daft like 800 right backs and decided £55 million Wan-Bissaka was the best option. We scouted Antony, valued him at £30-40 million, no one else wanted him, then we paid £80 million for him. Even Ugarte and Casemiro were late window panic buys.

You fecking named Zirkzee as someone that was rated by top clubs earlier, and now you're saying you have "no idea" if anyone rated them. You've been making shit up the entire time.

Our transfers have been shit, almost to a man, since Fergie and Gill left, and it's frankly bizarre that you're going to such lengths to try and justify them as anything else.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Don't know too much about him but if that is the case, that certainly is a useful trait to have. What I always worry though, is how do such people fare at a club as much in the limelight as Manchester United is. It is one thing to get Rayo Vallecano or Bournemouth players to run more, but how will he fare dealing with different characters and entitlements.

That is the question, can he manage to egos. I remember that was my reservation when we got linked before but maybe ETH and Amorim have done enough ego shipping that the core players are better suited.

What I will say is when he started they had that awful run of like 10 games without a win and I remember he was inevitably asked about if he had the players for his style etc. and he would always just quash the question and say stuff like 'zero complaints' and then big up his players. Someone asked him about tactics and how complex his were and he was just like 'if you can't explain it so everyone gets in in 1-2 mins, it's too complicated' so I feel he'd be well liked in terms of being easy to train under if you can suck up the cardio.

 

[stevoc]

Again, who fecking cares what they did before we signed them? Top clubs giving us their cast offs isn't proof that they were wanted or rated by top clubs when we signed them, which is precisely what I'm disputing.

You obviously do since are arguing against a minor point of mine where I said players were highly rated and/or chased by other top clubs before we signed them.

As for "United scouting and identifying players no other [top] clubs are interested in" - yes, I think that's somehow become the case. We allegedly scouted something daft like 800 right backs and decided £55 million Wan-Bissaka was the best option. We scouted Antony, valued him at £30-40 million, no one else wanted him, then we paid £80 million for him. Even Ugarte and Casemiro were late window panic buys.

So you believe United, under 2 different regimes now. Identify and sign players that no other top clubs were ever interested in. Fair enough, I disagree but fair enough if that's your opinion.

You fecking named Zirkzee as someone that was rated by top clubs earlier, and now you're saying you have "no idea" if anyone rated them. You've been making shit up the entire time.

Our transfers have been shit, almost to a man, since Fergie and Gill left, and it's frankly bizarre that you're going to such lengths to try and justify them as anything else.

I asked you a question mate, he was one name amongst several I picked randomly from the players you listed in your initial reply. Asking a question is not the same as making a statement. You understand that yes?

I have found all your posts in this conversation a bit bizarre mate to be honest, some odd takes to say the least.

 

[NZT-One]

I didn't understand why we went for M'Beumo to be honest when we already had Amad and Bruno who could play right 10. That money would have been better spent on a midfielder.

Completely agree. I'd even be able to see the Mbeumo thing go through, but adding the 3rd young and rather unproven striker for big money, thats where it became problematic to me. But you are right, Mbeumo in terms of position is a bigger head scratcher since Bruno could (and should play there) and Amad should be there mid-to-longterm.

I agree that the style of play needed modernising but I just don't think that needed to be at the expense of staying relatively competitive. I see no reason a good coach couldn't keep this squad of players around 4th-8th while implementing his ideas.

Fair assessment. Thats where I have to speculate - in my personal view, I think the challenges were so big, that it would have been a miracle to repair the bike, tune the bike while riding it in a race. But I can see, how others could come to a different conclusion.

 

[Alex99]

You obviously do since are arguing against a minor point of mine where I said players were highly rated and/or chased by other top clubs before we signed them.




So you believe United, under 2 different regimes now. Identify and sign players that no other top clubs were ever interested in. Fair enough, I disagree but fair enough if that's your opinion.



I asked you a question mate, he was one name amongst several I picked off the top of my head. Asking a question is not the same as making a statement. You understand that yes?

I have found all your posts in this conversation a bit bizarre mate to be honest, some odd takes to say the least.

If your point was that some players have played for/were targeted by top clubs an indeterminate length of time in the past so at some point in time they were rated to some vague degree then it's a monumentally shite and utterly redundant point. It was also the only point you made in regard to our transfer business, so hardly "minor".

We've been under the second regime for a little over a year, and even that's come with a change in structure after Ashworth left. Last summer was basically a limbo/halfway stage between regimes. I've made no judgments on this summer's signings.

 

[NZT-One]

That is the question, can he manage to egos. I remember that was my reservation when we got linked before but maybe ETH and Amorim have done enough ego shipping that the core players are better suited.

What I will say is when he started they had that awful run of like 10 games without a win and I remember he was inevitably asked about if he had the players for his style etc. and he would always just quash the question and say stuff like 'zero complaints' and then big up his players. Someone asked him about tactics and how complex his were and he was just like 'if you can't explain it so everyone gets in in 1-2 mins, it's too complicated' so I feel he'd be well liked in terms of being easy to train under if you can suck up the cardio.

Thats where being a footballer at the highest level himself certainly is an advantage - you just know what level of detail is mental overload and what is bearable.

But Amorim was a footballer as well so... I'd honestly would love to talk to him in private, learn what he considers the issues are right now. I'd be genuinely interested, not even to then share it, just for me to know. I'd love to know if there are specific individuals who don't follow his orders or whether he thinks they are too dumb to understand it.

 

[stevoc]

Completely agree. I'd even be able to see the Mbeumo thing go through, but adding the 3rd young and rather unproven striker for big money, thats where it became problematic to me. But you are right, Mbeumo in terms of position is a bigger head scratcher since Bruno could (and should play there) and Amad should be there mid-to-longterm.

Fair assessment. Thats where I have to speculate - in my personal view, I think the challenges were so big, that it would have been a miracle to repair the bike, tune the bike while riding it in a race. But I can see, how others could come to a different conclusion.

I get what you're saying mate but thinking back to 23/24 we were absolute dogshit and playing a nonsensical brand of football but still finished 8th even with a bad defensive injury crisis. So I don't think a similar finish should have been beyond the realms of possibility last season while implementing new tactics.

 

[stevoc]

If your point was that some players have played for/were targeted by top clubs an indeterminate length of time in the past so at some point in time they were rated to some vague degree then it's a monumentally shite and utterly redundant point.

It wasn't specifically no but the fact a lot of those players came from top clubs disproves your point that they weren't highly rated.

It was also the only point you made in regard to our transfer business, so hardly "minor".

It was a minor point in an overall larger post that wasn't really about transfers at all.

Are you always this pedantic?

 

[Alex99]

It wasn't specifically no but the fact a lot of those players came from top clubs disproves your point that they weren't highly rated.



It was a minor point in an overall larger post that wasn't really about transfers at all.

Are you always this pedantic?

But literally no other top club coming in for them when they were no longer wanted by the top club they were at does, in fact, disprove that they were highly rated when we signed them.

How are you not getting this?

 

[tslklang]

Posted after last season europa lost, club need total reset. amorim system clearly not working in epl. he need to be replace with an epl proven manager during the summer. now it's too late as other epl clubs will not release their manager mid season. I would replace amorim during the summer with epl proven manager like howe, iraola, or glasner. now another season will go to waste and making things worse, the new signing (cunha, sesko, mbeumo) will lost confidence if keep on playing in amorim system

 

[stevoc]

But literally no other top club coming in for them when they were no longer wanted by the top club they were at does, in fact, disprove that they were highly rated when we signed them.

Can you prove no other top club wanted any/all of those players we signed around the time we signed them?

How are you not getting this?

How are you not getting that you believing something doesn't make it true?

Mate, we're going round in circles here and you're derailing the thread.

 

[Alex99]

Can you prove no other top club wanted any/all of those players we signed around the time we signed them?



How are you not getting that you believing something doesn't make it true?

Mate, we're going round in circles here and you're derailing the thread.

The proof is the complete lack of evidence.

Are you a godly man, by any chance?

 

[stevoc]

The proof is the complete lack of evidence.

Strange thing to say when you are the one who's discarded all evidence that was provided because you didn't believe it to be true.

Are you a godly man, by any chance?

Mate go and have a lie down.

 

[Alex99]

Strange thing to say when you are the one who's discarded all evidence that was provided because you didn't believe it to be true.



Mate go and have a lie down.

What evidence?

Where we sign players from is irrelevant when the ones from "top clubs" have pretty much all been surplus to requirements (Di Maria probably the only exception) so that's not evidence of anything.

After that you've got an Ornstein report on Ronaldo, some media speculation on Fred, Real Madrid ghosting van de Beek, and PSG making a single bid (of £20 million less than we did) for Hojlund. That's not close to the "many players" you claimed.

I don't believe the claim that "many of our players have been highly rated and chased by top clubs" to be true because there's little to no evidence of that being the case when we signed them, which is the only time those ratings and interest would be remotely relevant.

We've got very circular now though, so let's just leave it.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Thats where being a footballer at the highest level himself certainly is an advantage - you just know what level of detail is mental overload and what is bearable.

But Amorim was a footballer as well so... I'd honestly would love to talk to him in private, learn what he considers the issues are right now. I'd be genuinely interested, not even to then share it, just for me to know. I'd love to know if there are specific individuals who don't follow his orders or whether he thinks they are too dumb to understand it.

Yeah it is odd - if I take a step back and think about the last few seasons, the most obvious thing to me is that our training just is not at the elite level. It seems like we plan all this stuff that must work in training and never works in games and we end up getting stretched and then seem to only play well when the game opens up and we can counter, which is what all our players known how to do. Under ETH second season and Amorim it just seems like we're surprised certain things happen, yet we fans see them coming every week.

 

[tf1989]

Initially I think the problem was not giving managers enough time. Latterly I think the problem is appointing the wrong managers, particularly Amorim. You appoint an elite manager for an elite team. It's a long time since United have been that. You don't want or need someone attuned to fine margins and tactical play, those aren't united's biggest problems. The issues are much deeper rooted - ironically, you want someone like a Moyesy (but not actually him... someone better...), a disciplinarian, someone who can build a team culture, not an elite european tactician - that's the next step once standards have been rebuilt.

At this point I think the best play is letting Amorim work it out, even if things stay bad. The squad can't keep getting the message that managers are temporary. His tactical setup is much more flexible in theory than he is given credit for, too - he can do the 3-4-3 in a variety of styles. But if United jump the best appointment I think they could make right now would be trying to snaffle Eddie Howe. Can build a strong team and set a tone. A "decent bloke" but not weak. Chaos at Newcastle so jumping out of the frying pan into the fire might actually be appealing. Coaches well, adapts, happy to play different formations and styles to get a result whilst being basically an attacking manager. Gets the best out of players, including repositioning them if needed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

ETH himself took over a crap situation where the fans wanted the entire squad sold and they finished the season with 1.52 ppg.

From taking over that situation he finished his first season with more points than Ole ever managed, and in 3rd place with silverware.

It never takes years to fix for a club that can spend money like us.

 

[stevoc]

What evidence?

Where we sign players from is irrelevant when the ones from "top clubs" have pretty much all been surplus to requirements (Di Maria probably the only exception) so that's not evidence of anything.

After that you've got an Ornstein report on Ronaldo, some media speculation on Fred, Real Madrid ghosting van de Beek, and PSG making a single bid (of £20 million less than we did) for Hojlund. That's not close to the "many players" you claimed.

I don't believe the claim that "many of our players have been highly rated and chased by top clubs" to be true because there's little to no evidence of that being the case when we signed them, which is the only time those ratings and interest would be remotely relevant.

It was clear after about 2 posts, your opinion was based on belief yet here we are. It's such an odd point to start a multi post off topic argument over. I don't know if you have a problem with me or are just angry at the the clubs recruitment, and wanted to rant about it

We've got very circular now though, so let's just leave it.

Yes let's.

 

[red.knight]

Funny how we think sacking managers will fix United when all its done is drag us deeper into mediocrity. Every time we hit a rough patch, the knives come out and somehow we still expect different results. Amorim hasnt even had a full season and already people are calling for his head. Before we talk about sacking him, lets talk about clearing out the real deadwood and the players who been underperforming year after year. The so called bomb squad Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Garnacho and Malacia. And the legacy squad players who either peaked long ago or were never up to the standard Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Casemiro, Hojlund, Ugarte, Onana, Bayindir and even Bruno and Martinez. Amorim is being asked to polish a squad thats been cracked for years. Let him build, let him fail, let him grow. If we dont, we just be here again next August having the same conversation with a new name in the dugout.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Funny how we think sacking managers will fix United when all its done is drag us deeper into mediocrity. Every time we hit a rough patch, the knives come out and somehow we still expect different results. Amorim hasnt even had a full season and already people are calling for his head. Before we talk about sacking him, lets talk about clearing out the real deadwood and the players who been underperforming year after year. The so called bomb squad Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Garnacho and Malacia. And the legacy squad players who either peaked long ago or were never up to the standard Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Casemiro, Hojlund, Ugarte, Onana, Bayindir and even Bruno and Martinez. Amorim is being asked to polish a squad thats been cracked for years. Let him build, let him fail, let him grow. If we dont, we just be here again next August having the same conversation with a new name in the dugout.

i get the point, but holy hell man at this point it is becoming embarrassing with how bad we are under amorim.