Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?

romufc

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He couldn't cement his place under a manager, that's not a reason for more time or faith. Rojo and Lukaku played under Mourinho and it's not an excuse for them. Shaw is a player people say we need to upgrade on, again he was under Mourinho. Why isn't it the same excuses for them?

Again I'm not saying he needs to go, I'm saying he should be in the same boat as players like Shaw where we know it's somewhere we need to look at upgrading rather than waiting for someone to come good after 5 years. On top of that he's in a position with very little competition so we know we need to bring someone in there.
He couldn't cement a place under this manager because the play style is completely different. Was Martial given the chance to be a ST under Jose?

Jose has a clear idea of what striker he wants, you can go have a look at every team he has managed, he like a hold up play striker, someone who is big. Drogba, Lukaku, Milito all are Jose players so he can play the long ball to them and play off them.

I guess you should include Rashford in there too because he didnt nail down a place under Jose and everytime Jose had a interview where Lukaku is not available he kept saying I have no other player to play there etc.

In regards to Shaw, it's not exactly a position we need to improve on urgently. So he isnt in the same boat. Once he gets some sort of fitness / form hes always looked decent.
 

Art Vandelay

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He couldn't cement a place under this manager because the play style is completely different. Was Martial given the chance to be a ST under Jose?

Jose has a clear idea of what striker he wants, you can go have a look at every team he has managed, he like a hold up play striker, someone who is big. Drogba, Lukaku, Milito all are Jose players so he can play the long ball to them and play off them.

I guess you should include Rashford in there too because he didnt nail down a place under Jose and everytime Jose had a interview where Lukaku is not available he kept saying I have no other player to play there etc.

In regards to Shaw, it's not exactly a position we need to improve on urgently. So he isnt in the same boat. Once he gets some sort of fitness / form hes always looked decent.
He was given the chance to play LW and couldn't hold it. Now he's suddenly a striker and needed to play there. Excuses.
 

romufc

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He was given the chance to play LW and couldn't hold it. Now he's suddenly a striker and needed to play there. Excuses.
Let me just give you some information that you may have ignored:

AGE 20 Martial 15/ 16 - first season 18 goals 11 assists
AGE 22 16 /17 - 8 goals 8 assists - A very poor season but as a LW he had 7 goals 8 assists
AGE 21 17/18 - 6 goals 6 assists as LW - started 17 PL games and only 6 90 mins
AGE 22 18/19 - 10 goals 2 assists as LW
AGE 23 - 19 /20 - 16 goals 5 assists as CF.

Now you will be able to tell the difference as to what manager style does? Under LVG he was scoring and assisting and then Jose where he was hardly utilised like he should be.

Now again under Ole he has a goals every 2 games ratio.

So now, in the league find me LW as you say who score and assist like he does at similar age playing for teams other than City and Liverpool because we have to look at teams around us.

He isnt suddenly a striker.

His first season he played 25 games as CF
3 seasons under Jose he played there 26 times altogether.

These are not excuses, the stats back it up.
 

Bebestation

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I hope Martial stays just to rile people up.

He couldn't hold the LW position apparently when Jose clearly dropped him for Sanchez :lol: he then came back and consistently did better than both him and Rashford and gave Jose extra time.

What do these fans watch in football!

I like Shaw but he has only begun to improve this year whilst Martial has been a good player ever since he arrived whilst also showing some signs of improving. He literally has the exact same amount of goals as Rashford whilst having less time as a striker, whilst also being a support striker for inverted forwards around him rather than a poacher in his play otherwise he would have been picked by a manager like Jose Mourinho who only picked big tall target men or poachers like Zlatan, Drogba, Milito, Higuain, mccarthy derlei etc. He isnt a manager who would ever play the false 9 formation and if anyone thinks so they need to read about football a bit more and get off their hatred for Martial!

So funny! Absolutely love the hatred towards him, hope he stays and the art of this vandalism continues just so the pain continues!
 

Art Vandelay

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Let me just give you some information that you may have ignored:

AGE 20 Martial 15/ 16 - first season 18 goals 11 assists
AGE 22 16 /17 - 8 goals 8 assists - A very poor season but as a LW he had 7 goals 8 assists
AGE 21 17/18 - 6 goals 6 assists as LW - started 17 PL games and only 6 90 mins
AGE 22 18/19 - 10 goals 2 assists as LW
AGE 23 - 19 /20 - 16 goals 5 assists as CF.

Now you will be able to tell the difference as to what manager style does? Under LVG he was scoring and assisting and then Jose where he was hardly utilised like he should be.

Now again under Ole he has a goals every 2 games ratio.

So now, in the league find me LW as you say who score and assist like he does at similar age playing for teams other than City and Liverpool because we have to look at teams around us.

He isnt suddenly a striker.

His first season he played 25 games as CF
3 seasons under Jose he played there 26 times altogether.

These are not excuses, the stats back it up.
Your ages are off a bit mate, I thought he was 19 in the first season too but I could be wrong.

None of that suggests he should be given the role of our first choice striker. You're reacting like people are saying he needs to go, when what they are saying is we need better and/or a different type of striker. If he's not suddenly a striker then why does he need more time to become a striker? It's just moving the goal posts to say you want him to be the main man up front and that's fair enough, but some people are getting ultra defensive just because not everyone rates him that highly after 5 years of watching him.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Truth be told, I don't see why it is that Martial is such a topic of discussion given that other positions are much more troubling in terms of a long-term fit. Obviously, we don't have someone of a high calibre to play on the right side of attack right now, and it could also be argued that improving CM, CDM, CB, and LB to an elite level are all more pressing concerns right now than improving at ST.

I think you can break down any squad of players into three groups: those who are obviously not good enough and definitely need replacing, those who are possibly good enough but we aren't sure, and those who are definitely good enough and are sure-fire long-term starters. Obviously, you want to always get rid of the first group of players in all situations; in the second case, you only get rid of those who are potentially good if there is no deadwood in the squad and if the squad is by and large made up of elite players. I find it hard to believe that this current United side is mostly made up of elite players and would find it even harder to believe that there is no deadwood in the squad. Therefore, it makes very little sense to get rid of Martial any time soon. If Martial was to remain in the unsure category and the squad around him improved, the case for getting rid makes a lot more sense, but that is not the case right now so I don't see any reason why we should get rid.

Even at that, I also find it strange as to what people value in a striker. People complain about Martial not being a proper CF but do you need a proper CF to succeed in the modern game? A False 9 isn't a proper CF but that doesn't mean you can't succeed by playing one. Similarly, I always feel that one of the key distinguishing aspects of a CF is good hold-up play. In that instance, is someone who consistently makes good runs behind the defence but can't hold the ball up well a useful player? Of course they are so it's not really that important whether or not a player is a proper CF. Again, I'm talking more in general terms here as people are often critical of Martial for not making runs in behind, but the point I want to make is just because he doesn't play up front in a similar style to a CF doesn't mean he can't play up front.

Moreover, I think we have to re-assess how we define the quality of attacking players. Football as a game is a low-scoring game so any individual goal is very significant in a way in which scoring a three-pointer in basketball is not. Therefore, imagine a striker who has maybe 40 actions in a game. Imagine then that about only 20% of those actions are successful. Then imagine that out of those successful actions, 12.5% lead to a goal. If these figures took place in a game, a striker would average either a goal or an assist per game. Over the course of a 38-game season, this would be an outstanding record given that the most productive of last year's top PL scorers finished on 22 goals and 10 assists. So obviously a striker can have a monumental impact whilst not being very efficient. Ultimately, if a striker frustrates most of the time but has a good scoring rate, I find it hard to to understand the argument that they have no place in the team. Looking at ProSoccer Reference, only 7 players have a better Non-Penalty Goals Per 90 Ratio than Martial (0.53) in the PL this season, namely Vardy (0.61), Aubameyang (0.62), Aguero (0.9), Ings (0.68), Mané (0.61), Abraham (0.6), and Calvert-Lewin (0.61). Given such productivity, I find it hard to see why people seem to think Martial has not been delivering the goods. If anything, our ability to score goals has likely been hampered by having zero reliable goalscorers outside of Martial and Rashford for most of the season (Greenwood hasn't played enough so I'm leaving him out) and having not had either Bruno or Pogba playing for most of the season. Therefore, I don't really see how it is that Martial is the one holding the team back and is in need of replacing.
Just on your first point.

I think the main reason why it's a topic for discussion is that the other troubling positions you have mentioned are very easy to identify as being an area to fix, I think most here would definitely agree that those positions should be the priority. But when it comes to Martial it's not as black and white, it's very debatable in terms of whether it's even an area to fix and if he is the right guy or not, therefore making it a topic for discussion.
 

romufc

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Your ages are off a bit mate, I thought he was 19 in the first season too but I could be wrong.

None of that suggests he should be given the role of our first choice striker. You're reacting like people are saying he needs to go, when what they are saying is we need better and/or a different type of striker. If he's not suddenly a striker then why does he need more time to become a striker? It's just moving the goal posts to say you want him to be the main man up front and that's fair enough, but some people are getting ultra defensive just because not everyone rates him that highly after 5 years of watching him.
The ages might be off because it depends what age you take? His birthday is in December, but anyway what I am suggesting is he is young.

So how do you intend to accommodate him? a bench player? how do you intend to give a player a chance when he is going to be on the bench?

He needs more time because this season as a CF he has shown he can lead the line. Look at the goals he has scored, look at the goals he is starting to score. That is what you want from a 23/ 24 year old, show signs of progress.

I would like to know, what do you expect from a CF? goals / assists?

I am not saying he is WC or I rate him really highly, just that he deserves another season to show, If he doesnt get 20 goals next season, I will happily say I was wrong, and we need a change.
 

Art Vandelay

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The ages might be off because it depends what age you take? His birthday is in December, but anyway what I am suggesting is he is young.

So how do you intend to accommodate him? a bench player? how do you intend to give a player a chance when he is going to be on the bench?

He needs more time because this season as a CF he has shown he can lead the line. Look at the goals he has scored, look at the goals he is starting to score. That is what you want from a 23/ 24 year old, show signs of progress.

I would like to know, what do you expect from a CF? goals / assists?

I am not saying he is WC or I rate him really highly, just that he deserves another season to show, If he doesnt get 20 goals next season, I will happily say I was wrong, and we need a change.
I meant you have 22 in twice, if you're taking it as him being 20 in his first season shouldn't that mean he is 25 in the last one? You started at 20, listed 5 seasons and had him 23 at the end. I think he is only 24 though, 25 in December this year. I've confused myself now too. :lol:

I didn't say anything about accomodating him, why would we accomodate him? If he's good enough then he can claim a place, if not then that's his problem. You accomodate young players, not 25 year olds. If we brought in a centreback would you accomodate Lindelof or let him fight for a place?

I don't agree he has shown he can lead the line, he disappears too often and spends too much time loitering on the left of the box causing a jam instead of attempting to find space or make runs. He's shown in spells he can, but hasn't been consistent enough in it. Again though I'm not saying he's definitely not good enough or he needs to go, I just feel we need another top class striker and Martial should be an option rather than the player we look to to lead the line. Which seems to be different from what a lot of people are arguing against. There seems to be this notion that if you don't think he's great and should be leading the line then you're a hater that wants rid of him.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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The ages might be off because it depends what age you take? His birthday is in December, but anyway what I am suggesting is he is young.

So how do you intend to accommodate him? a bench player? how do you intend to give a player a chance when he is going to be on the bench?

He needs more time because this season as a CF he has shown he can lead the line. Look at the goals he has scored, look at the goals he is starting to score. That is what you want from a 23/ 24 year old, show signs of progress.

I would like to know, what do you expect from a CF? goals / assists?

I am not saying he is WC or I rate him really highly, just that he deserves another season to show, If he doesnt get 20 goals next season, I will happily say I was wrong, and we need a change.
Exactly. Martial is finally starting to show progress. We couldn't score shit when he was injured. He may not be the usual level for a United striker though but he certainly should not be a position to worry about right now
 

MadDogg

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Jose has a clear idea of what striker he wants, you can go have a look at every team he has managed, he like a hold up play striker, someone who is big. Drogba, Lukaku, Milito all are Jose players so he can play the long ball to them and play off them.
The strange thing is is that Lukaku isn't that type of player either. One of the reasons he was so poor for us (and possible the reason he bulked up so much for his second season) is that Mourinho was trying to play him like that and that's really not his playstyle. He has the build of that type of player but in reality he plays more like a larger version of Chicharito where he wants to run into channels, not play with his back to goal.

Martial actually has better hold up play than Lukaku. Partly because of his better touch, but he also judges the ball better in the air so he can challenge defenders for it. 90% of the time Lukaku misjudged the flight of the ball and watched it go a couple of metres over his head. Whereas Martial normally has surprisingly good hold-up play (bar the match against Chelsea where he couldn't win a dual against anyone).
 

Carl S Bridge

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Seriously? Your post is all excuses.



Whether they're valid or not it's a different discussion, but don't tell me you're not giving Martial a list of excuse.

Mourinho : check
Teammates : check
System : check
Manager : Check
Injury : Check

But yeah, no excuse.
You've got an agenda it's pretty plain to see.
 

Art Vandelay

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The strange thing is is that Lukaku isn't that type of player either. One of the reasons he was so poor for us (and possible the reason he bulked up so much for his second season) is that Mourinho was trying to play him like that and that's really not his playstyle. He has the build of that type of player but in reality he plays more like a larger version of Chicharito where he wants to run into channels, not play with his back to goal.

Martial actually has better hold up play than Lukaku. Partly because of his better touch, but he also judges the ball better in the air so he can challenge defenders for it. 90% of the time Lukaku misjudged the flight of the ball and watched it go a couple of metres over his head. Whereas Martial normally has surprisingly good hold-up play (bar the match against Chelsea where he couldn't win a dual against anyone).
To this day I still don't understand how that kept happening. It wasn't that he was being outmuscled, he just kept misjudging the ball forward. I don't know if it was an issue before he came to us, but he just kept doing it. Rashford did it for a while too, but did eventually improve.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I meant you have 22 in twice, if you're taking it as him being 20 in his first season shouldn't that mean he is 25 in the last one? You started at 20, listed 5 seasons and had him 23 at the end. I think he is only 24 though, 25 in December this year. I've confused myself now too. :lol:

I didn't say anything about accomodating him, why would we accomodate him? If he's good enough then he can claim a place, if not then that's his problem. You accomodate young players, not 25 year olds. If we brought in a centreback would you accomodate Lindelof or let him fight for a place?

I don't agree he has shown he can lead the line, he disappears too often and spends too much time loitering on the left of the box causing a jam instead of attempting to find space or make runs. He's shown in spells he can, but hasn't been consistent enough in it. Again though I'm not saying he's definitely not good enough or he needs to go, I just feel we need another top class striker and Martial should be an option rather than the player we look to to lead the line. Which seems to be different from what a lot of people are arguing against. There seems to be this notion that if you don't think he's great and should be leading the line then you're a hater that wants rid of him.
Currently Martial is better than all of strikers sitting on the bench in top European sides. Braithwaite, Jovic, Higuain, Origi, Jesus. But I still don't think he's good enough to be the no.9 of a big European side
 

Bebestation

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The ages might be off because it depends what age you take? His birthday is in December, but anyway what I am suggesting is he is young.

So how do you intend to accommodate him? a bench player? how do you intend to give a player a chance when he is going to be on the bench?

He needs more time because this season as a CF he has shown he can lead the line. Look at the goals he has scored, look at the goals he is starting to score. That is what you want from a 23/ 24 year old, show signs of progress.

I would like to know, what do you expect from a CF? goals / assists?

I am not saying he is WC or I rate him really highly, just that he deserves another season to show, If he doesnt get 20 goals next season, I will happily say I was wrong, and we need a change.
I'm a pro Martial fan but I dont think he will be a 20 goal striker but I think he makes our tactic where our inverted forwards become our main goalscorers and Martial becomes the cohesive glue with the ability to play deep and score goals too.

I think without looking at players who are yet to come like Sancho - our best set up is Rashford on the left, Martial central and Greenwood on the right - for that Martial plays more like a false 9.

Before Rashford's injury and when Greenwood was getting games alongside Rashford - Martial was playing like a class support striker and false 9 and his first touch was class.

Rashford got injured then Martial had to lead the line by himself and become a poacher type striker and his first touch became a bit more inconsistent- this is why fans disagree about his first touch - some fans focus on his period where he played as a false 9 with Rashford and Greenwood in his best position, best ability and best capabilities whilst others focus on arguably his weakest version of him - where he leads the frontline all by himself with no support from players around him because players like Rashford was injured and he gets stocked up next to Daniel James as a winger or an inside forward.

If Martial gets a full season with Rashford & Greenwood then people will respect him. On another view, If Sancho the RW comes in and ends up playing like Pedro did for Barcelona then Martial is all good however if he struggles to cut in front the right lane like he always manages to do in the Bundesliga who have no defensive fullbacks and ends up crossing the ball to Martial rather than playing a inside forward - that maybe the last season of Martial.

A pure, good quality system player. Nothing wrong with him.
 

MadDogg

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He couldn't cement his place under a manager, that's not a reason for more time or faith. Rojo and Lukaku played under Mourinho and it's not an excuse for them. Shaw is a player people say we need to upgrade on, again he was under Mourinho. Why isn't it the same excuses for them?
Lukaku got chance after chance after chance. No matter how bad he played he was picked to play every single game. Rojo got quite a lot of chances, and the couple of times he played well he was kept in the team. They were also established players.

Playing under Mourinho isn't an excuse for Martial. But it should be remembered that for over half the time he's been here he was under a manager who quite blatantly didn't like him, stripped him of his shirt number, refused to play him up front (the position that the other two managers mostly used him in) and would drop him when he was outperforming the people he would be dropped for. All I'm saying is that it should be taken into account. Unlike everyone else that you mention, he was being screwed around by that one particular manager. A manager who is very well known for not being good with young players to the extent that arguably the two best players in the league were youngsters who left his clubs to go elsewhere.

The main thing is that this season he's shown enough that replacing him as first choice is low down on the list of priorities. There's good reason to expect that his improvement will continue and he will reach the required level of consistency soon enough. It's not a certainty so if the right player comes along for cheap (the Haaland situation perhaps fit that bill in January) then that's great, but there's more important areas to be strengthening right now. Then at the end of next season we'll have a better idea one way or the other.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Let me just give you some information that you may have ignored:

AGE 19/20 Martial 15/ 16 - first season 18 goals 11 assists
AGE 20/21 16 /17 - 8 goals 8 assists - A very poor season but as a LW he had 7 goals 8 assists
AGE 21/22 17/18 - 6 goals 6 assists as LW - started 17 PL games and only 6 90 mins
AGE 22/23 18/19 - 10 goals 2 assists as LW
AGE 23/24 - 19 /20 - 16 goals 5 assists as CF.

Now you will be able to tell the difference as to what manager style does? Under LVG he was scoring and assisting and then Jose where he was hardly utilised like he should be.

Now again under Ole he has a goals every 2 games ratio.

So now, in the league find me LW as you say who score and assist like he does at similar age playing for teams other than City and Liverpool because we have to look at teams around us.

He isnt suddenly a striker.

His first season he played 25 games as CF
3 seasons under Jose he played there 26 times altogether.

These are not excuses, the stats back it up.
Adjusted for you but this 100% he’s not been a world beater under Mourinho by any stretch but he’s still scored and shown glimpses.

I don’t find it at all surprising his two best seasons are at CF.

A bit like when Rooney was the focus of our attack and got 30+ goals.
I meant you have 22 in twice, if you're taking it as him being 20 in his first season shouldn't that mean he is 25 in the last one? You started at 20, listed 5 seasons and had him 23 at the end. I think he is only 24 though, 25 in December this year. I've confused myself now too. :lol:

I didn't say anything about accomodating him, why would we accomodate him? If he's good enough then he can claim a place, if not then that's his problem. You accomodate young players, not 25 year olds. If we brought in a centreback would you accomodate Lindelof or let him fight for a place?

I don't agree he has shown he can lead the line, he disappears too often and spends too much time loitering on the left of the box causing a jam instead of attempting to find space or make runs. He's shown in spells he can, but hasn't been consistent enough in it. Again though I'm not saying he's definitely not good enough or he needs to go, I just feel we need another top class striker and Martial should be an option rather than the player we look to to lead the line. Which seems to be different from what a lot of people are arguing against. There seems to be this notion that if you don't think he's great and should be leading the line then you're a hater that wants rid of him.
Who would you sign to be that too class forward? How much of our budget would you be happy spending on this player too?

The strange thing is is that Lukaku isn't that type of player either. One of the reasons he was so poor for us (and possible the reason he bulked up so much for his second season) is that Mourinho was trying to play him like that and that's really not his playstyle. He has the build of that type of player but in reality he plays more like a larger version of Chicharito where he wants to run into channels, not play with his back to goal.

Martial actually has better hold up play than Lukaku. Partly because of his better touch, but he also judges the ball better in the air so he can challenge defenders for it. 90% of the time Lukaku misjudged the flight of the ball and watched it go a couple of metres over his head. Whereas Martial normally has surprisingly good hold-up play (bar the match against Chelsea where he couldn't win a dual against anyone).
Agreed
You've got an agenda it's pretty plain to see.
It’s one thing coming with counter arguments and another to ignore them completely some people can’t or won’t accept facts.
Currently Martial is better than all of strikers sitting on the bench in top European sides. Braithwaite, Jovic, Higuain, Origi, Jesus. But I still don't think he's good enough to be the no.9 of a big European side
I’d disagree I think if you offered him to Real Madrid or even Juventus they’d take him in a heartbeat. He’s now at the age and in the kind of side that he should be able to put up good numbers and if next season he doesn’t get them as our main CF then it’s time to call it and replace but I don’t see the value in changing someone who has scored this season and clearly has something special in him on his day. It just becomes a case of helping him get more chances to have those good days.
I'm a pro Martial fan but I dont think he will be a 20 goal striker but I think he makes our tactic where our inverted forwards become our main goalscorers and Martial becomes the cohesive glue with the ability to play deep and score goals too.

I think without looking at players who are yet to come like Sancho - our best set up is Rashford on the left, Martial central and Greenwood on the right - for that Martial plays more like a false 9.

Before Rashford's injury and when Greenwood was getting games alongside Rashford - Martial was playing like a class support striker and false 9 and his first touch was class.

Rashford got injured then Martial had to lead the line by himself and become a poacher type striker and his first touch became a bit more inconsistent- this is why fans disagree about his first touch - some fans focus on his period where he played as a false 9 with Rashford and Greenwood in his best position, best ability and best capabilities whilst others focus on arguably his weakest version of him - where he leads the frontline all by himself with no support from players around him because players like Rashford was injured and he gets stocked up next to Daniel James as a winger or an inside forward.

If Martial gets a full season with Rashford & Greenwood then people will respect him. On another view, If Sancho the RW comes in and ends up playing like Pedro did for Barcelona then Martial is all good however if he struggles to cut in front the right lane like he always manages to do in the Bundesliga who have no defensive fullbacks and ends up crossing the ball to Martial rather than playing a inside forward - that maybe the last season of Martial.

A pure, good quality system player. Nothing wrong with him.
I think Martial can be both a 20 goal striker and a creative player for us and I guess that’s why I’d defend him so much. He’s got it all there and I’ve seen enough to know he’s close to proving it and I think with a bit more luck this season he’d be 20+ anyway.

I genuinely think he’ll become a much better version of Firmino in the Liverpool set up. Not so much in terms of pressing but the sort of role in the side.

I think you’ve made some great points here particularly with regards to the roleSancho might play in altering his future that I hadn’t considered so some good food for thought there!
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I'm a pro Martial fan but I dont think he will be a 20 goal striker but I think he makes our tactic where our inverted forwards become our main goalscorers and Martial becomes the cohesive glue with the ability to play deep and score goals too.

I think without looking at players who are yet to come like Sancho - our best set up is Rashford on the left, Martial central and Greenwood on the right - for that Martial plays more like a false 9.

Before Rashford's injury and when Greenwood was getting games alongside Rashford - Martial was playing like a class support striker and false 9 and his first touch was class.

Rashford got injured then Martial had to lead the line by himself and become a poacher type striker and his first touch became a bit more inconsistent- this is why fans disagree about his first touch - some fans focus on his period where he played as a false 9 with Rashford and Greenwood in his best position, best ability and best capabilities whilst others focus on arguably his weakest version of him - where he leads the frontline all by himself with no support from players around him because players like Rashford was injured and he gets stocked up next to Daniel James as a winger or an inside forward.

If Martial gets a full season with Rashford & Greenwood then people will respect him. On another view, If Sancho the RW comes in and ends up playing like Pedro did for Barcelona then Martial is all good however if he struggles to cut in front the right lane like he always manages to do in the Bundesliga who have no defensive fullbacks and ends up crossing the ball to Martial rather than playing a inside forward - that maybe the last season of Martial.

A pure, good quality system player. Nothing wrong with him.
Great post
 

Art Vandelay

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Lukaku got chance after chance after chance. No matter how bad he played he was picked to play every single game. Rojo got quite a lot of chances, and the couple of times he played well he was kept in the team. They were also established players.

Playing under Mourinho isn't an excuse for Martial. But it should be remembered that for over half the time he's been here he was under a manager who quite blatantly didn't like him, stripped him of his shirt number, refused to play him up front (the position that the other two managers mostly used him in) and would drop him when he was outperforming the people he would be dropped for. All I'm saying is that it should be taken into account. Unlike everyone else that you mention, he was being screwed around by that one particular manager. A manager who is very well known for not being good with young players to the extent that arguably the two best players in the league were youngsters who left his clubs to go elsewhere.

The main thing is that this season he's shown enough that replacing him as first choice is low down on the list of priorities. There's good reason to expect that his improvement will continue and he will reach the required level of consistency soon enough. It's not a certainty so if the right player comes along for cheap (the Haaland situation perhaps fit that bill in January) then that's great, but there's more important areas to be strengthening right now. Then at the end of next season we'll have a better idea one way or the other.
But you just said that Mourinho was trying to use Lukaku as a target man when he wasn't. So if Mourinho is to be factored into this then it should have been the same for Lukaku too. Again I'm not saying he's shit and needs to go, I'm saying it's been 5 years and I'm not convinced he is the player we should be backing to lead the line. I'd prefer to bring in another striker Mourinho or not. I just don't think it's that low down the list and wouldn't call it replacing him as much as not relying on him, if he gets injured or goes off form again where does it leave us? There should be top class competition for him and if he's good enough to claim a place then great, if not then we have other options.

What some people don't seem to get, is that the thread isn't about Martial being shit, it's about if he has convinced you he's the right man to be the main striker moving forward. I'm not saying that's you, but it seems to be why some people get a bit bent out of shape by it all.
 

Art Vandelay

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Who would you sign to be that too class forward? How much of our budget would you be happy spending on this player too?
In an ideal world, Kane. That's obviously not going to happen though and there other options, it's not even so much getting in a world class striker it's getting in a good one that gives us another option and a different way to play.

As far as the budget goes though, I honestly don't know. It's very fluid I feel given the need to improve in several areas, we obviously can't do it all in one summer and it depends on who leaves. I'm not even saying it 100% has to happen, but it shouldn't be too far down the list either. If we can't get Sancho and there's no leftback available that's an improvement on Shaw/Williams, then obvisously striker budget is higher. If we can improve several other areas at more reasonable prices then obviously those will take priority. It's all a matter of what we can get and what's available as oppposed to being comfortable spending on a striker.

It's not a black/white either/or issue. It's just something I feel needs to be part of the consideration sooner rather than later. Maybe Greenwood will make it a redundant issue, but it feels a bit unfair asking that of him.
 

Dante

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Greenwood will have overtaken Martial in a season or (at most) two. So talking about 'long term' is pointless in that context, imo.
 

MadDogg

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But you just said that Mourinho was trying to use Lukaku as a target man when he wasn't. So if Mourinho is to be factored into this then it should have been the same for Lukaku too. Again I'm not saying he's shit and needs to go, I'm saying it's been 5 years and I'm not convinced he is the player we should be backing to lead the line. I'd prefer to bring in another striker Mourinho or not. I just don't think it's that low down the list and wouldn't call it replacing him as much as not relying on him, if he gets injured or goes off form again where does it leave us? There should be top class competition for him and if he's good enough to claim a place then great, if not then we have other options.

What some people don't seem to get, is that the thread isn't about Martial being shit, it's about if he has convinced you he's the right man to be the main striker moving forward. I'm not saying that's you, but it seems to be why some people get a bit bent out of shape by it all.
I do give Lukaku some slack because of it, at least in his first season. Hell even in the second season I think it was ultimately unfair on him to keep him as a guaranteed starter no matter how atrocious he was on the field. He is better than what he showed here. But at the end of the day while he is good at what he does, he simply doesn't have the skillset to be the striker for how we want to play.

Martial on the other hand absolutely has the skillset. His main weaknesses are doing it consistently and having more impact on the game even when he's not playing well. He's already improved in that regard this year in his first season back as striker, so I'm confident enough in him that I wouldn't want to spend any significant amount of money. Somebody like Igahlo is perfect if we can get him back again. Somebody relatively cheap who can come in and cover Martial and also 'keep him honest' if his form does drop off, but gives Martial the proper chance to prove he is the man going forward.
 

BenitoSTARR

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In an ideal world, Kane. That's obviously not going to happen though and there other options, it's not even so much getting in a world class striker it's getting in a good one that gives us another option and a different way to play.

As far as the budget goes though, I honestly don't know. It's very fluid I feel given the need to improve in several areas, we obviously can't do it all in one summer and it depends on who leaves. I'm not even saying it 100% has to happen, but it shouldn't be too far down the list either. If we can't get Sancho and there's no leftback available that's an improvement on Shaw/Williams, then obvisously striker budget is higher. If we can improve several other areas at more reasonable prices then obviously those will take priority. It's all a matter of what we can get and what's available as oppposed to being comfortable spending on a striker.

It's not a black/white either/or issue. It's just something I feel needs to be part of the consideration sooner rather than later. Maybe Greenwood will make it a redundant issue, but it feels a bit unfair asking that of him.
So who is gettable that you would bring in? Who would you consider other options to give us that different way of playing?

I think (and genuinely I don’t mean to be rude) it’s a bit of a cop out answer really in that due to your uncertainty of what you’d be willing to dedicate shows in itself how much Martial deserves a chance. We know he’s better than the vast majority of players for our forward line and he’s at a good age too. I’d quite happily say a max of £40m on a good back up is as far as I’d go as I know we won’t get a striker better than Martial and I think paying over that amount would be a huge waste.

I personally think while it’s not a black or white issue the club has the option to make a sensible investment in the future by allowing Martial the chance next season with an Ighalo/King/Jimenez or whoever fits within a reasonable budget to be a rotation option and Greenwood to pick up minutes wide and centrally as he’s one of the best goal finishers I’ve seen on the market (as in we have him already and I don’t see a better realistic alternative e.g. Haaland) and he’s only 18.

I think for once we have a good attack.
 

Art Vandelay

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So who is gettable that you would bring in? Who would you consider other options to give us that different way of playing?

I think (and genuinely I don’t mean to be rude) it’s a bit of a cop out answer really in that due to your uncertainty of what you’d be willing to dedicate shows in itself how much Martial deserves a chance. We know he’s better than the vast majority of players for our forward line and he’s at a good age too. I’d quite happily say a max of £40m on a good back up is as far as I’d go as I know we won’t get a striker better than Martial and I think paying over that amount would be a huge waste.

I personally think while it’s not a black or white issue the club has the option to make a sensible investment in the future by allowing Martial the chance next season with an Ighalo/King/Jimenez or whoever fits within a reasonable budget to be a rotation option and Greenwood to pick up minutes wide and centrally as he’s one of the best goal finishers I’ve seen on the market (as in we have him already and I don’t see a better realistic alternative e.g. Haaland) and he’s only 18.

I think for once we have a good attack.
How can I dedicate figures based on pure fantasy? I don't know our budget, I don't know how the market will be affected by what's happening and I don't know who is or isn't available in other positions. It's utterly ridiculous for anyone to put a figure on anything at the minute because no one has a clue what's happening. We simply don't know who is or isn't gettable or even what kind of transfer window there is going to be.

If we got Jimenez what makes you think he'd come here to be back up and that Wolves would sell him for £40m? It's pure fantasy to put figures on anyone or say who will or won't be available when the window opens.
 

Rawls

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Just on your first point.

I think the main reason why it's a topic for discussion is that the other troubling positions you have mentioned are very easy to identify as being an area to fix, I think most here would definitely agree that those positions should be the priority. But when it comes to Martial it's not as black and white, it's very debatable in terms of whether it's even an area to fix and if he is the right guy or not, therefore making it a topic for discussion.
Actually, I agree with you as I don't think anyone can state as a fact whether he should be a starting striker at the club or not. When it comes to Martial, it's more so a matter of belief as to whether he's good enough or not.
 

welshwingwizard

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The question is wrong. The real question is does he look out of place in a a list of strikers who led the line since I have been following us:

Hughes
Cantona
Cole
Yorke
Van Nistelrooy
Rooney
Van Persie

The answer is clearly yes, there is no way you can look at him and compare and I don't think there has been a league winner without standout attacker, even if just a fluke season (like Vardy playing out of his skin).

Even players who weren't automatic starters like Ole, Sheringham, Saha, Tevez and Berbatov have proven more. If we want to win stuff then Saha is probably the best comparison in terms of utilising wide forwards like Ronaldo and Rooney (or firmino with Salah and Mane). But with due respect we don't have those two playing either side and it is unlikely we will.

With that in mind I think we deserve a better striker who can strike fear in defenders.
 

BenitoSTARR

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The question is wrong. The real question is does he look out of place in a a list of strikers who led the line since I have been following us:

Hughes
Cantona
Cole
Yorke
Van Nistelrooy
Rooney
Van Persie

The answer is clearly yes, there is no way you can look at him and compare and I don't think there has been a league winner without standout attacker, even if just a fluke season (like Vardy playing out of his skin).

Even players who weren't automatic starters like Ole, Sheringham, Saha, Tevez and Berbatov have proven more. If we want to win stuff then Saha is probably the best comparison in terms of utilising wide forwards like Ronaldo and Rooney (or firmino with Salah and Mane). But with due respect we don't have those two playing either side and it is unlikely we will.

With that in mind I think we deserve a better striker who can strike fear in defenders.
All of them played in title winning sides look at the context of who is around them. Every striker knows they are only as good as their service.

You think RVN would thrive with Pereira and Lingard?
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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All of them played in title winning sides look at the context of who is around them. Every striker knows they are only as good as their service.

You think RVN would thrive with Pereira and Lingard?
Good point but RVN would probably score from those James crosses
 

welshwingwizard

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All of them played in title winning sides look at the context of who is around them. Every striker knows they are only as good as their service.

You think RVN would thrive with Pereira and Lingard?
They made them winning sides! RvN and van persie were both acclaimed for dragging average sides to titles. Those players listed were all special and would have been had they played for Oldham. We need to stop with the excuses and start having high expectations again.
 

BenitoSTARR

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They made them winning sides! RvN and van persie were both acclaimed for dragging average sides to titles. Those players listed were all special and would have been had they played for Oldham. We need to stop with the excuses and start having high expectations again.
No they didn’t. The whole team and manager made them a winning side.

You can’t just plonk one world class player in a team and win everything otherwise Messi would have a world cup winners medal.

RVN was not surrounded by average players. RVP is the only valid example of a top striker making a massive difference but even then we had Sir Alex, Rooney etc

These aren’t excuses they are facts and being blind to them just makes you seem naive.
 

welshwingwizard

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No they didn’t. The whole team and manager made them a winning side.

You can’t just plonk one world class player in a team and win everything otherwise Messi would have a world cup winners medal.

RVN was not surrounded by average players. RVP is the only valid example of a top striker making a massive difference but even then we had Sir Alex, Rooney etc

These aren’t excuses they are facts and being blind to them just makes you seem naive.
I'm not ignoring the quality around them. I'm merely saying that RvN, van Persie, Rooney, Cantona etc would have been amazing no matter who they played with.

Trying to make the argument that Martial is in any way as good as them just sounds ridiculous. Ignoring the quality of teammates, you just had to watch them play to know how good previous united strikers were when we were winning things.

Martial is a Sheringham, Berbatov or Saha level player. Great squad option for a really competitive team or functional first team player who is replaceable should the right talent come along. Ideally he would be the former but he doesn't seem to have the attitude to be a squad option.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I'm not ignoring the quality around them. I'm merely saying that RvN, van Persie, Rooney, Cantona etc would have been amazing no matter who they played with.

Trying to make the argument that Martial is in any way as good as them just sounds ridiculous. Ignoring the quality of teammates, you just had to watch them play to know how good previous united strikers were when we were winning things.

Martial is a Sheringham, Berbatov or Saha level player. Great squad option for a really competitive team or functional first team player who is replaceable should the right talent come along. Ideally he would be the former but he doesn't seem to have the attitude to be a squad option.
That’s not true though. They would have nowhere near the same levels of success without other talented players around them too.

Im not saying he’s as good as them currently but he’s not exactly had the opportunities they’ve had to prove himself as a striker so it’s an unfair comparison to make.

Let’s see how he does next season before saying he can’t cut it. I believe you’ll be pleasantly surprised
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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No they didn’t. The whole team and manager made them a winning side.

You can’t just plonk one world class player in a team and win everything otherwise Messi would have a world cup winners medal.

RVN was not surrounded by average players. RVP is the only valid example of a top striker making a massive difference but even then we had Sir Alex, Rooney etc

These aren’t excuses they are facts and being blind to them just makes you seem naive.
The point is Martial is not on the level of strikers we had and that's what we should be aiming for. The CAF never shuts up about how we always had solid strikers on the bench. That's where Martial would have been while we would have one of Europe's best strikers starting for us during our glory days and we should be aiming to go back to glory
 

BenitoSTARR

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The point is Martial is not on the level of strikers we had and that's what we should be aiming for. The CAF never shuts up about how we always had solid strikers on the bench. That's where Martial would have been while we would have one of Europe's best strikers starting for us during our glory days and we should be aiming to go back to glory
He’s not had the quality around him to get to that level. It doesn’t happen without good service too. We have that now and so no excuses for next season.
 

welshwingwizard

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The point is Martial is not on the level of strikers we had and that's what we should be aiming for. The CAF never shuts up about how we always had solid strikers on the bench. That's where Martial would have been while we would have one of Europe's best strikers starting for us during our glory days and we should be aiming to go back to glory
Exactly. Top quality striker with Martial on bench pushing them to maintain quality and to come in when needed is recipe for success.

Martial as starter is more years in wilderness.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Exactly. Top quality striker with Martial on bench pushing them to maintain quality and to come in when needed is recipe for success.

Martial as starter is more years in wilderness.
So name the affordable and available player to replace him?
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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He’s not had the quality around him to get to that level. It doesn’t happen without good service too. We have that now and so no excuses for next season.
I agree. I think most people are coming to the conclusion that next season is when Martial has to prove he has the quality of a United no.9
 

welshwingwizard

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So name the affordable and available player to replace him?
That's not the point. The question was has he done enough to be the long term number 9 which he hasn't. There will always be talented players coming through. Haaland has that reported clause meaning you could get him.
 

Bebestation

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That's not the point. The question was has he done enough to be the long term number 9 which he hasn't. There will always be talented players coming through. Haaland has that reported clause meaning you could get him.
1) Buy Grealish and Sancho this year.
2) Next year see how Daniel James develops - if he struggles vs Grealish/Rashford/Sancho/Greenwood and Martial all playing in his same positions then James isnt good enough and indicates that Grealish can cover LW for us, or even Sancho if Rashford is down injured.
3) We need a tap in merchant whether Martial becomes world class or not because he is a support striker false 9 in my eyes - buy Haaland when the time is right.

Leaves us with Sancho, Rashford Martial, Haaland & Greenwood- that's arguably 5 players competing for 3 positions with Grealish an added player capable of playing CAM, CM and LW. It leaves us with 2 right footed strikers and 2 left footed strikers and enables us to play the 352 balanced and the 4231 and the 433 with different variations.

Absolutely no need to get rid of Martial. He has never cried about competing for a striker spot and he will be more than useful because again - there is no need to buy 2 strikers of the mould of Haaland, just buy one - let's keep the very promising and reliable false 9 player we have that helps the inverted forwards around him.

It allows us to be flexible with our tactics -which ole has proven to be - choosing 352 against the big teams, using false 9's, buying an Ighalo instead of another martial etc. Plus I also think Martial is quite a loved character in the team - maybe it's way too early to predict but I don't particularly think players like Rashford and even Bruno Fernandes would instantly be happy with the thought about him exactly leaving like the fans are.
 
Last edited:

yo@Kirk

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Imo, Martial would be more consistent in his overall play if he was prepped to play 60 minutes per match instead of 80 to 90 minutes per match. It seems like he's pacing himself in order to play the whole match because he doesn't think he'll be replaced. For 25m, his 22 year old countryman Odsonne Edouard would provide both solid depth and a challenge to his position if he fails to play to his potential in the time he is in the match.
 

MadDogg

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The question is wrong. The real question is does he look out of place in a a list of strikers who led the line since I have been following us:

Hughes
Cantona
Cole
Yorke
Van Nistelrooy
Rooney
Van Persie

The answer is clearly yes, there is no way you can look at him and compare and I don't think there has been a league winner without standout attacker, even if just a fluke season (like Vardy playing out of his skin).

Even players who weren't automatic starters like Ole, Sheringham, Saha, Tevez and Berbatov have proven more. If we want to win stuff then Saha is probably the best comparison in terms of utilising wide forwards like Ronaldo and Rooney (or firmino with Salah and Mane). But with due respect we don't have those two playing either side and it is unlikely we will.

With that in mind I think we deserve a better striker who can strike fear in defenders.
Martial doesn't belong in that group yet, but he has the potential to do so.

Martial is 24. Ruud was still at Ajax at that age. Cantona was still in France. RvP had never scored more than 16 goals in a season, and no more than 13 since coming to England. Yorke was just having his break-through season. Saha had had one good season (and then dropped off again).

Martial is now at the age that most these players were when they started taking the step up. He showed signs he was in the process of doing that this season (he was on track to get around 25 goals and had scored in most of his matches against the top 6) and it's unlikely we'll buy anyone else to replace him unless an option too good to pass up comes along.