Has RedCafe soured you to Manchester United?

[Withnail]

I can see where you are coming from and I'd rather it went to him than the glazers, but not when it's at the cost of the real everyman. Back in the day it was no Biggie for a bloke who worked in a factory for feck all all week to take his lad to the match but now it's a special birthday treat for those at the bottom. People have been priced out if it for what? It's still essentially the same thing it always was, just so some talentless little gobshite can have a new rolls every year and retire at 30?
Keane was right when he said where is the motivation for these lads? Some 20 year old who has achieved nothing yet with all that money? Those sorts of perks and salaries should be for the elite, not every goon who can run around a bit, the sort of players who are actually missed when out injured or suspended not the ones who it wouldn't even be noticed.

The sad thing is in the grand scheme of things ticket sales don't account for very much of the clubs revenue at all.

They have put a freeze on ticket prices haven't they?

Either way they could afford to lower them so it's affordable for young lads to get the next generation more involved like they do in the Bundesliga.

In relation to wages of players it doesn't seem to affect the motivation of players at well run clubs and with Keane's opinions I'd take a kilo of salt.

He couldn't motivate players when he was a manager because he can't relate to anyone who doesn't live up to his standards and is terrible at man management.

 

[Miscemayl]

This place is depressing when things are not going well.

I tend to avoid the place when results isn't going away. I'm feeling shit already, don't need to read more doom and gloom

 

[Tincanalley]

Your post made me wonder if your experience applies to me. I came in with huge enthusiasm, was over the moon about being promoted from newbies, etc. In the early days I would race to the match day thread, as if it was a pub full of reasonably typical United supporters, to have the craic to share the ups and downs. But - as I soon learned - the MDT is far from that. I rarely go there now. But I have allowed the Caf to mediate my way of looking at the club, I think. There is a core of top contributors that always have something thoughtful to contribute. Sometimes I wonder if there is a better forum out there, but I haven't found it, to be fair. I have found a lot of worse ones. At one point i discovered the ignore button, which did help.

This is my lowest point with the club so far, its just hard to see anything but decline and stagnation. I still love the shirt, though, and still hate City and Liverpool. I must say I do tend to look back a lot now, to various magical moments in the past. A time when imagination flowed on the pitch, and impossible goals were a regular feature. I don't think my feelings about the club now are really down to the CaF, though, more like a kind of creeping dread of what is coming down the tracks, of how the club is being run, the unloved feeling about the stadium, etc, and maybe the way the sport has gone generally.

 

[Kevin_]

Also. I think it would help if new thread creation was disabled during and after the game (for a couple of hours), so that people can cool down and think rationally.

Too true mate.

This cafe will make you believe anything.

 

[iHicksy]

Honestly, I think a lot of this forums problems stem from the attitudes of the FIFA and Football Manager kids. They happily spew rubbish about selling such and such for 150 mil and replacing them with xxx three players. Even when De Gea was saving our league campaigns during previous seasons some on here think we should cash him and get a younger model in, no concept of building a team or the values that certain players have in regards to attitude. Don't get me started one the swings in player ratings. As an example, one goal and Martial is a world beater, then the next game he's crap and he needs to be sold.

There's no grey here, it's all very black and white at times.

 

[Greck]

How can Redcafe sour the experience? You can't even see their faces. That's like having your day spoiled by the YouTube comment section

 

[Member 93275]

Football forum is working as supposed to. When the team is winning, there is positive banter and emotions, when they're losing there is negative banter and emotions.

And when they're losing there are always a bunch of people whining about other people's opinions, they are not truly fans and stupid blah blah. Fine, welcome to the Internet. But then they take it one step further and want to control what is allowed to be said.

It's like walking into a football cafe after a match and demanding that all the people have the same opinions as you, only cheerleaders allowed, like an echo chamber. It's a bit juvenile, the exact opposite what a forum should be, and a good way to kill it.

 

[WensleyMU]

The modern wannabe statisticians masquerading as fans are certainly annoying. They simply do not understand football as it should be understood, imo.

As are those who align themselves with individuals. There's nothing wrong with defending a player or a manager, but when it starts to become an obsession, then it becomes an issue.

Then there's the match day threads. Beyond toxic. Cesspits for hysteria, devoid of reason.

It doesn't sour my love for United though, it just creates discontent for an element of my fellow fans.

 

[simplyared]

i suspect the reason for this thread is the thread that takes up the subject about appointing Ole and if it was a mistake. Many posters (not me included) voiced strong opinions aimed at posters who maybe believed the thread was justifiable considering the recent run of games and the football we've been playing. Personally I can't see any problem with people questioning Ole. What I do have a problem with though is when posters jump on players and start calling them shit. The latest one getting all the abuse is Matic. Ashley Young should never wear the utd shirt again according to many. Smalling gets his share also.

 

[InspiRED]

I had this moment last week.

Honestly don't know why I'm sitting by the computer, arguing with people who have zero experience in any management capacity about the best way to run a football club and who's to blame for our current plight.

Think I'll give this place up until after the summer. At the end of the day I'm not gaining anything by trying to convince absolute strangers that we should back the manager...

I think what RedCafe needs is some kind of 'Safe Space' where all the super duper intelligent people with all the management experience can air their far superior opinions without having to suffer the pain of being outraged and triggered by anyone who might have the temerity to disagree with them.

Maybe we could get Ed Woodward in there, I mean he's got a ton of management experience!

On a serious note, this strategy of insinuating that anyone who disagrees with your opinion has some kind of inferior CV and is therefore unfit to comment is one of the worst cases of "argument from authority" I've come across. It's beyond pathetic.

 

[Smores]

Not at all, the state of our club and the players have done that but I'll still watch every game such is life.
I don't think this place has changed that much in the last decade it's still people on a sliding scale of content to discontent arguing about things that they enjoy arguing about but in truth know little beyond their own biases and emotions. There were arguments in title winning seasons so yeah they'll always be some negativity. Now we've got blaming the manager as an option it's just another layer of disagreement.

Given the constant change in managers i do find opinions are all over the place and there's a lot of unearned sanctimony from some. We all love Ole but some have decided that means we all need to be top reds and not analyse anything, analysis based on who we like or dislike on any given week seems to be the norm.

 

[Snuffkin]

We tend to blow out any fragile flame of recovery. Everything is over analysed and young players cannot grow.

 

[Red_Aaron]

Honestly, I think a lot of this forums problems stem from the attitudes of the FIFA and Football Manager kids. They happily spew rubbish about selling such and such for 150 mil and replacing them with xxx three players. Even when De Gea was saving our league campaigns during previous seasons some on here think we should cash him and get a younger model in, no concept of building a team or the values that certain players have in regards to attitude. Don't get me started one the swings in player ratings. As an example, one goal and Martial is a world beater, then the next game he's crap and he needs to be sold.

There's no grey here, it's all very black and white at times.

No doubt this is a massive factor.
It's funny given the huge amount of management experts on here just how little regard is given to the practicalities of any issue. Everything is robotic. Every player and manager is one thing or another but never a mixture. It's like people here have never experienced an actual human being before

 

[PTSTSL]

This place would benefit from being able to like or dislike individual posts. Bit of feedback to posters and easier to see who is just trolling.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

This place would benefit from being able to like or dislike individual posts. Bit of feedback to posters and easier to see who is just trolling.

What your advocating is a form of censorship that doesn’t exist in any forum I know of.
The beauty of this place is that it has a fair few intelligent posters and those who can post intelligently and informatively.

It has humour and also can be provocative.

Why would you suddenly decide who receives feedback on posts? That already exists privately and posters can either take the advice or leave. Trolls get their own justice from posters

 

[JohnnyKills]

The constant top red shite is the worst thing for me. People trying to prove their credentials as fans by spouting nonsense about the United way and throwing insults at anyone who dares criticise the manger.

If you jumped on United in the 90s or 00s and got slaughtered for being a glory hunter, just accept it. Stop trying to prove yourselves by breaking every argument down to a playground slanging match about loyalty and faith.

 

[Beagle]

The shitness on the football pitch has done it. Not so much this place. I only watch games on tv and online so I'm not sure how much my opinion is worth, but I'm pretty sure there are others like me who are in it to watch entertaining, winning football. Since none of that's on offer, I'd say it's United that has soured me towards United.

In fact the way the club and team are criticized and vilified on here is one of the best qualities of this forum. Not all of us are cult supporters and I like the fact that people here question everything about the club. Like having a debate last week about whether it was wise to give Ole the job despite some people saying the thread should be locked. Everything is up for debate. And everyone can be criticized. That's what makes this forum a good read.

 

[Brophs]

More like Red Woodward has. Amirite guys?

 

[Rozay]

Mine is the opposite - it’s soured me towards United fans.

That said, I think it’s teaching me about the stages we go through dependent on our age profiles. I first began posting on the caf as a 17 year old in 2004. Most of my views then were probably similar to the stuff I read now. And I remember an older group of fans at the time, those who had witnessed REAL Manchester United dark times looking down on spoilt fans for being so hysterical. We were lashing out every time we dropped points ‘this is the WORST this, and the WORST that’ - we were spoiled and entitled.

Fast-forward now to me being early 30s and I see myself taking on a different role. All everyone wants to do is tear the club down, jumping from one scapegoat to another. This player should ‘NEVER be at Manchester United, we have lost the plot’ - ‘why can’t we be more like Liverpool or City’ etc. I realise that the Liverpool everyone wants us to be more like have won nowhere near what we have won in my lifetime, likewise City - but it seems that there’s a younger group who think they should either stamp their feet or throw their toys to demand everything the beautiful game has to offer every season or else!

For me, I see it as a time to pull round the club more. I don’t even share this huge aim to find the ‘guilty party’ for our current woes, sometimes there is no obvious explanation. I was always told when Sir Alex was here that times would be tough when he leaves. And they have been, relatively. We’ve been in and around the top 4 since then, and not competed for a title. As much as I want us to win, this is part of the game. It’s just somebody else’s turn right now. I’ve seen periods where Real became a poor side, in the early to mid 00’s I think, I’ve seen periods where Bayern Munich couldn’t make the Champions League - and both these teams face nothing like the competition we face. We won’t always be able to hold such competition off every year, that’s just reality - and whether next year, or in 5 years, they won’t be able to hold us off any longer either. Every big club goes through these periods while they take a few years to gather themselves and come again. In every major league history will tell you that. In our own league, it is unique in that if you have a slump, it’s not just ‘the other team’ that moves ahead. It’s the ‘other 5’. That being said, I don’t think we’ve gone about the post-Fergie era as massively wrong as some do. I get irritated when I see what I suspect are a bunch of 22 year olds at best giving all of these speculative breakdowns and diagnosis of ‘how to run a major football club 101’, and telling everyone at operations level how they should be doing their jobs. Redcafe makes me feel old now basically, as the prevalent voice of whining and moaning reminds me of when I used to post as a teenager.

 

[RasTiaGba]

People crying in the thread because of criticism of players.

Real Madrid and Barcelona regularly boo players like Gareth Bale and Philippe Coutinho if they aren't playing well enough. That's football.

We have lost 7 games in 9, of course the forum isn't going to be full of praise for players at this moment.

All of the guys who I think aren't good enough like Pogba and Lukaku, got their praise off me when they were playing well during the win streak.

Now, they're playing rubbish and I'll criticise them.

If criticising players is too much for you to handle, football might not be the sport for you, bearing in mind Real and Barca do it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

The constant top red shite is the worst thing for me. People trying to prove their credentials as fans by spouting nonsense about the United way and throwing insults at anyone who dares criticise the manger.

If you jumped on United in the 90s or 00s and got slaughtered for being a glory hunter, just accept it. Stop trying to prove yourselves by breaking every argument down to a playground slanging match about loyalty and faith.

Those are two different arguments right?

You’re entitled to hold either view and people have the right to challenge it.

It’s becoming a Brexit v Remainer style slanging match at times. It’s quite fun, why take any of it seriously?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Mine is the opposite - it’s soured me towards United fans.

That said, I think it’s teaching me about the stages we go through dependent on our age profiles. I first began posting on the caf as a 17 year old in 2004. Most of my views then were probably similar to the stuff I read now. And I remember an older group of fans at the time, those who had witnessed REAL Manchester United dark times looking down on spoilt fans for being so hysterical. We were lashing out every time we dropped points ‘this is the WORST this, and the WORST that’ - we were spoiled and entitled.

Fast-forward now to me being early 30s and I see myself taking on a different role. All everyone wants to do is tear the club down, jumping from one scapegoat to another. This player should ‘NEVER be at Manchester United, we have lost the plot’ - ‘why can’t we be more like Liverpool or City’ etc. I realise that the Liverpool everyone wants us to be more like have won nowhere near what we have won in my lifetime, likewise City - but it seems that there’s a younger group who think they should either stamp their feet or throw their toys to demand everything the beautiful game has to offer every season or else!

For me, I see it as a time to pull round the club more. I don’t even share this huge aim to find the ‘guilty party’ for our current woes, sometimes there is no obvious explanation. I was always told when Sir Alex was here that times would be tough when he leaves. And they have been, relatively. We’ve been in and around the top 4 since then, and not competed for a title. As much as I want us to win, this is part of the game. It’s just somebody else’s turn right now. I’ve seen periods where Real became a poor side, in the early to mid 00’s I think, I’ve seen periods where Bayern Munich couldn’t make the Champions League - and both these teams face nothing like the competition we face. We won’t always be able to hold such competition off every year, that’s just reality - and whether next year, or in 5 years, they won’t be able to hold us off any longer either. Every big club goes through these periods while they take a few years to gather themselves and come again. In every major league history will tell you that. In our own league, it is unique in that if you have a slump, it’s not just ‘the other team’ that moves ahead. It’s the ‘other 5’. That being said, I don’t think we’ve gone about the post-Fergie era as massively wrong as some do. I get irritated when I see what I suspect are a bunch of 22 year olds at best giving all of these speculative breakdowns and diagnosis of ‘how to run a major football club 101’, and telling everyone at operations level how they should be doing their jobs. Redcafe makes me feel old now basically, as the prevalent voice of whining and moaning reminds me of when I used to post as a teenager.

Best post so far

 

[JohnnyKills]

Those are two different arguments right?

You’re entitled to hold either view and people have the right to challenge it.

It’s becoming a Brexit v Remainer style slanging match at times. It’s quite fun, why take any of it seriously?

Of course people have the right to challenge any view. But throwing out words like 'spoilt' or 'entitled' or just yelling 'get behind the manager' isn't the way to do that. If you did that in a pub you'd soon be drinking on your own.

As you say, it's reminiscent of the Brexit farce. Can't see how that's fun to be honest.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Mine is the opposite - it’s soured me towards United fans.

That said, I think it’s teaching me about the stages we go through dependent on our age profiles. I first began posting on the caf as a 17 year old in 2004. Most of my views then were probably similar to the stuff I read now. And I remember an older group of fans at the time, those who had witnessed REAL Manchester United dark times looking down on spoilt fans for being so hysterical. We were lashing out every time we dropped points ‘this is the WORST this, and the WORST that’ - we were spoiled and entitled.

Fast-forward now to me being early 30s and I see myself taking on a different role. All everyone wants to do is tear the club down, jumping from one scapegoat to another. This player should ‘NEVER be at Manchester United, we have lost the plot’ - ‘why can’t we be more like Liverpool or City’ etc. I realise that the Liverpool everyone wants us to be more like have won nowhere near what we have won in my lifetime, likewise City - but it seems that there’s a younger group who think they should either stamp their feet or throw their toys to demand everything the beautiful game has to offer every season or else!

For me, I see it as a time to pull round the club more. I don’t even share this huge aim to find the ‘guilty party’ for our current woes, sometimes there is no obvious explanation. I was always told when Sir Alex was here that times would be tough when he leaves. And they have been, relatively. We’ve been in and around the top 4 since then, and not competed for a title. As much as I want us to win, this is part of the game. It’s just somebody else’s turn right now. I’ve seen periods where Real became a poor side, in the early to mid 00’s I think, I’ve seen periods where Bayern Munich couldn’t make the Champions League - and both these teams face nothing like the competition we face. We won’t always be able to hold such competition off every year, that’s just reality - and whether next year, or in 5 years, they won’t be able to hold us off any longer either. Every big club goes through these periods while they take a few years to gather themselves and come again. In every major league history will tell you that. In our own league, it is unique in that if you have a slump, it’s not just ‘the other team’ that moves ahead. It’s the ‘other 5’. That being said, I don’t think we’ve gone about the post-Fergie era as massively wrong as some do. I get irritated when I see what I suspect are a bunch of 22 year olds at best giving all of these speculative breakdowns and diagnosis of ‘how to run a major football club 101’, and telling everyone at operations level how they should be doing their jobs. Redcafe makes me feel old now basically, as the prevalent voice of whining and moaning reminds me of when I used to post as a teenager.

Well said.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Redcafe and internet forums in general.

And the general HATRED of all things Manchester United on the internet and outside it... it's so difficult to maintain a positive mental attitude when all you see is such reckless hate. And what can men do against it?

-.... in our fanbases case? Join them. I hear enough SHIT from supporters of other clubs without hearing it from our own fans too, and Redcafe is heavily guilty of knee-jerk viciousness.

 

[RasTiaGba]

I want the best of success for this club.

Players who are rubbish more than half the time like Pogba, Lukaku, and Sanchez must go.

Young gets it in the neck all season. And so do Jones and Smalling.

But now that dyed hair Pogba is getting the criticism since he's playing rubbish, his fans are crying about the forum.

And people who are saying "I'm 30 we'll get success soon stop moaning" - The EPL wasn't as competitive in the time you went through dry periods. Another year or two of the poor signings and I dread to think how far away Liverpool and City will be. It's getting to a stage that if we don't improve, our only chance of catching them will be their manager leaving and them falling apart like United

If that's too much for you to handle, wake up

 

[JohnnyKills]

At the end of the day, we all want United to return to the top as soon as possible. We all enjoyed the nineties and noughties, and it would be great to get back there.

So let's just stop the squabbling and name-calling. Challenge one another's point of view without insulting it. That's what you'd do with your mates, right?

We all support United, so let's start living up to its name.

 

[Raees]

It annoys me somewhat when I see some fans so oblivious to certain failings of players/management to the point where they would prioritise ‘fanboying’ individuals over what is the interests of the club. That has in hindsight made supporting the club a less enjoyable experience in addition to other issues such as the concept of ‘supporting’ is according to some - basically blindly following the club and not daring to criticise any thing to do with the club. That is seen as the ultimate proof of passion for your club which I completely disagree with.

Some rational discussion of where the club is going wrong and what it might be doing right wouldn’t go amiss. It’s not always black and white.

 

[Maticmaker]

Not at all, the RedCafe is great, lots of ideas and views and arguments put forward, some of course complete nonsense (my own included at times!). However that's what football is about ...opinions!

There is no point getting upset if you cannot convince others, politics is the arena for trying to produce convincing arguments, football is for sounding off, having your say, blowing a raspberry, etc.

However as Harry Truman once observed; "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen"

 

[Yagami]

Nah.

I love you all. Whether you were José in or out, whether you think Pogba's a problem or not, we all have our opinions, and I love you all regardless. And United, too.

 

[JJ12]

I had this moment last week.

Honestly don't know why I'm sitting by the computer, arguing with people who have zero experience in any management capacity about the best way to run a football club and who's to blame for our current plight.

Think I'll give this place up until after the summer. At the end of the day I'm not gaining anything by trying to convince absolute strangers that we should back the manager...

I feel this way too. You don't know who you are arguing with. Could be some absolute numb skull just wasting your time. Then there are others who are informative and you can have a good discussion with.

Coming on here after a bad patch is soul destroying.

 

[KennyBurner]

I'm torn between my old self and the shit that's posted on here.
I used to love United come rain or shine and it was one of the reasons I signed up here almost twenty years ago.
I don't like posting on the untied or football forums anymore.

I honestly feel posters on here have soured me to my team.

This has to be a personal problem for you. You shouldn’t really let the opinions of strangers online sour you. When I see idiotic comments most times I just scroll away. I would say as a young guy who started really watching football matches and understanding them in the very late 90s I’m not used to what we have now. I’ve only ever known success and I’m pretty sure a lot of the current fan base is going through the same problem right now. It’s a learning experience and maybe sometime in the future I too can post about how I’ve been through thick and thin with United as you old heads always seem to do.

 

[Hughie77]

Its a typical younger fan I think, who's been spoilt in football terms, with UTD, I've followed and support the club from 1976.

I've been through the ringer ups downs maybes . Big Ron nearly getting us there, then SAF 1986 , who the hell is this guy ? History proved after a torrid 5 yrs he was the right person. Now where in a simlar boat to that time, and I think patience is needed.

SAF cleared out the dead wood, we all know the stories behind it all, ole now has to do the same, and time is needed. Expect tough time, expect ups downs, expect it to be tough. But one thing will remain, UTD are a Massive club even bigger than when I first became to follow them. But you will still get in this world of instant success bad attitudes.

 

[Sky1981]

I remember reading fans saying they understand things gonna go south after fergie, and most accepted that.

5 years onward a few trophies here and there and the same sets of fans wants the club sold, the board disbanded, the club razed to ground and rebuilt.

I dont get the hate for ed and board in general, they're not the best and had their share of faults but the toxicity here is extreme. It seems that everyone from the manager, coach, player, board are all evil corporation or fraud. Why cant people accept that we're having a purple patch wherw the universe is correcting our 20 years domination. We're like a bunch of witch hunters looking for the new names to burn at the stake.

From moyes, lvg, ed, jose, and now ole. From the old guards to bfs to pogba and many other stars that joined us is pelted with toxicity. Hell some even want de gea sold and replaced with grant.

Long gone are the voices of reason from old posters drowned by the sea of histeria and finger pointing pesimist

 

[Bocca9978]

9/10 threads seem to start by moaning about some thing. It does get depressing and I skip through most of them, or don’t bother.

Glad United are playing today.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

They can try. They won't succeed

 

[Cloud7]

Not at all. The club is in a crap state these days. It is what it is.

Our fanbase are well within their rights to be disgruntled at the way things are going, and I would never say that posters being upset at the state of the club could sour me to our fanbase or the club.

 

[Withnail]

I remember reading fans saying they understand things gonna go south after fergie, and most accepted that.

5 years onward a few trophies here and there and the same sets of fans wants the club sold, the board disbanded, the club razed to ground and rebuilt.

I dont get the hate for ed and board in general, they're not the best and had their share of faults but the toxicity here is extreme. It seems that everyone from the manager, coach, player, board are all evil corporation or fraud. Why cant people accept that we're having a purple patch wherw the universe is correcting our 20 years domination. We're like a bunch of witch hunters looking for the new names to burn at the stake.

From moyes, lvg, ed, jose, and now ole. From the old guards to bfs to pogba and many other stars that joined us is pelted with toxicity. Hell some even want de gea sold and replaced with grant.

Long gone are the voices of reason from old posters drowned by the sea of histeria and finger pointing pesimist

The reason is that the Glazer's and Ed Woodward only care about making money and the Glazer's have taken a lot of money out of the club to line their own pockets.

Woodward himself has said that performances on the pitch don't affect their ability to be profitable or their reach on social media.

LVG said United is run as a commercial club not a football club and there is truth to that.

When winning leagues isn't the priority coming down from the top and the structure isn't set up with a long term vision for footballing success you get mediocrity.

Apparently there is no one on the board who has any experience of running a football club which is highly unusual.

Last year when many other clubs made a profit United didn't. This is perhaps why suddenly there are noises around directors of football and getting the structure right.

Hopefully this is the start of a change of attitude which will bring United back to winning ways.

 

[SaintMuppet]

The Internet makes people act in ways they never would ordinarily. They will do and say some ludicrous stuff. And it’s not only with football.

It’s a bit like giving some random Joe 10 pints of Stella and starting an argument with him.

 

[el3mel]

The forum has definitely changed my perspective for the team and for discussions but probably for the worse I guess. Discussions here are mostly civil war and you need to be as aggressive as your opponent. The number of friendly discussions I entered here can be counted on fingers so you need to act like the others and be as aggressive. Not a healthy tactic of discussions to learn though so as I said it changed me to the worse.