Has the backpass rule come full circle?

Marwood

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I’m not missing the point, the point you are making is just daft.

The rule was literally bought in to stop keepers having it in their hands out of play / on the Floor in front of them about to pick it up for half the game.

Being able to back pass didn’t slow the game down it literally stopped it. What’s next limit how much the back 4 can pass it between themselves, 2 touch football ?
I understand what you mean, but your suggestion/solution doesn’t work. In the 1980s teams passed the ball back to the keeper just as much. Instead they could pick the ball up and couldn’t be tackled, leading to some farcical situations and time wasting. Graeme Souness’s famous clip of winning the ball and then booting it miles back to the keeper for example.

Your main issue seems to be passing the ball to the goalkeeper. Then if you wanted to change this rule, it should be related to backwards passing, rather than the backpass. I think a shot clock could be the solution, a team’s 30 seconds on the ball maximum. That way you wouldn’t see 10 unnecessary passes from defenders to goalkeeper.
I've not really offered a solution/suggestion.

It's just an observation of how the rule change has developed.

Like @NevilleWearsPrada said, this heightened level of keeper involvement is a consequence of the backpass rule change. It just took a generation to happen.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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To me this is just a way of enforcing your favorite brand of football through the rules. Somebody doesn't like possession football and wants to ditch it this way.

I for instance think counter attacking teams that park the bus and then play very vertically are not enjoyable to watch at all. Only counting goals when all players are in the opponent's half would solve that and probably make it more enjoyable for me. But I still wouldn't suggest such a rule change. I also hate it when players take long shots all the time - they are spectacular when they go in but for each goal, there are 20 balls flying into the stands, gifting the ball to the opponent and taking the excitement out of the match. Should I demand forbidding them?

On point.
On point.
You don’t need to forbid them, they’ve died out naturally. I haven’t seen such a game with lots of such long shots in many years. In fact I wish there were more long shots. The main thing football misses now though is dribbling. All those things are seen as too ‘risky’ at an elite level but in my opinion they’re what get you out of your seat.

You could play technical possession football in 30 seconds if you timed so the shot took place in the last 5 seconds. It just cuts out stale possession. It’s got nothing to do with pumping it long. I don’t want to see that either.
 

Zehner

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I've not really offered a solution/suggestion.

It's just an observation of how the rule change has developed.

Like @NevilleWearsPrada said, this heightened level of keeper involvement is a consequence of the backpass rule change. It just took a generation to happen.
How is this a consequence of the backpass rule change?

It's a consequence of Guardiola being so successful and half the world copying his style. The keeper being involved so much is a direct consequence of the numerical superiority theories of positional football. It's basically the idea that you can't allow yourself the luxury leaving one of your 11 players out of play while you're outnumbered/equalled in other areas of the pitch.
 

Zehner

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You don’t need to forbid them, they’ve died out naturally. I haven’t seen such a game with lots of such long shots in many years. In fact I wish there were more long shots. The main thing football misses now though is dribbling. All those things are seen as too ‘risky’ at an elite level but in my opinion they’re what get you out of your seat.

You could play technical possession football in 30 seconds if you timed so the shot took place in the last 5 seconds. It just cuts out stale possession. It’s got nothing to do with pumping it long. I don’t want to see that either.
Possession football really is about "finding the right pass" and not forcing it. Be patient and look for the weakness in the opponent's formation. If you can't be patient because you're in a race against the clock, then all the opponent has to do is to close all lanes down for 30 seconds and be done with it. They don't even have to take risks in their pressing because they know they'll have the ball eventually.

With regards to dribbling: I think that's a temporary thing because right now, there are very few great dribblers in the EPL. But one way or another: Teams that sit back all the time will make it much harder to dribble.
 

Marwood

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How is this a consequence of the backpass rule change?

It's a consequence of Guardiola being so successful and half the world copying his style. The keeper being involved so much is a direct consequence of the numerical superiority theories of positional football. It's basically the idea that you can't allow yourself the luxury leaving one of your 11 players out of play while you're outnumbered/equalled in other areas of the pitch.
Because the backpass rule made keepers become better with the ball. It made the keeper become a viable option.

You think Guardiola could play his game with a pre rule change keeper?
 

Zehner

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Because the backpass rule made keepers become better with the ball. It made the keeper become a viable option.

You think Guardiola could play his game with a pre rule change keeper?
Yes. Guardiola would have his keepers play like this anyway. And if there would have been no goalkeeper around with the required technical ability, he would have trained one or played an on field player in goal to accomplish it. Remember he played a mediocre keeper but great footballer in Victor Valdes at Barcelona.

Moreover: Look at Ederson's heatmap e. g. He gathers many of his touches outside the box where keepers were never allowed to pick the ball up. Guardiola's keepers probably wouldn't even pick the ball up all the time if they were allowed to do so since it would slow down the build up play too much.
 

Marwood

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Yes. Guardiola would have his keepers play like this anyway. And if there would have been no goalkeeper around with the required technical ability, he would have trained one or played an on field player in goal to accomplish it. Remember he played a mediocre keeper but great footballer in Victor Valdes at Barcelona.

Moreover: Look at Ederson's heatmap e. g. He gathers many of his touches outside the box where keepers were never allowed to pick the ball up. Guardiola's keepers probably wouldn't even pick the ball up all the time if they were allowed to do so since it would slow down the build up play too much.
Guardiola couldn't get Joe Hart, Englands No.1, to play that way. Sold him soon as he could. So the idea he could just train a keeper from the late 80's/mid 90's to be a ball playing keeper seems very remote.

Him playing an outfield player in goal is a very out there suggestion.
 

Zehner

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Guardiola couldn't get Joe Hart, Englands No.1, to play that way. Sold him soon as he could. So the idea he could just train a keeper from the late 80's/mid 90's to be a ball playing keeper seems very remote.

Him playing an outfield player in goal is a very out there suggestion.
I think it is a much more out there suggestion that Guardiola or another coach of his kind wouldn't have had the idea to integrate the keeper into the build up play if it wasn't for the rule change. Actually, I couldn't believe there were no playing keepers around before 1992 and googled for the Dutch keeper 1974, Jan Jongbloed, and guess what? He is described as such:

soccervoice said:
Jongbloed was often described as a playing goalkeeper and acting more or less like a sweeper, and by that seen as an eccentric and modern type.
Source

28 years before the back pass rule was changed ;)
 

Marwood

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I think it is a much more out there suggestion that Guardiola or another coach of his kind wouldn't have had the idea to integrate the keeper into the build up play if it wasn't for the rule change. Actually, I couldn't believe there were no playing keepers around before 1992 and googled for the Dutch keeper 1974, Jan Jongbloed, and guess what? He is described as such:



Source

28 years before the back pass rule was changed ;)
We're talking about England and British based goalkeepers around the early 90's period.

A Wikepedia description for one keeper from Holland is neither here nor there really.

Schmeichel was the best keeper in the world when the rule change came in and he was a hoof ball merchant like all the others. Fortunately he had a great throw on him.

As I said Guardiola couldn't train England's number one to do it.

It's dead simple this. Over a 20 year period goalkeepers had to become better and better with the ball. The backpass rule made that essential. I wouldn't have thought this disagreeable.

Whatever our guess work that 20 year process made Guardiola's job of finding a ball playing keeper a lot easier when he came into management.
 

Marwood

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I'm sure Total Football happened pre backpass rule.
I'm speaking for Premier league football.

I didn't watch Dutch league football in the 70's. So no idea how the keeper was used then and there.
 

Zehner

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We're talking about England and British based goalkeepers around the early 90's period.

A Wikepedia description for one keeper from Holland is neither here nor there really.

Schmeichel was the best keeper in the world when the rule change came in and he was a hoof ball merchant like all the others. Fortunately he had a great throw on him.

As I said Guardiola couldn't train England's number one to do it.

It's dead simple this. Over a 20 year period goalkeepers had to become better and better with the ball. The backpass rule made that essential. I wouldn't have thought this disagreeable.

Whatever our guess work that 20 year process made Guardiola's job of finding a ball playing keeper a lot easier when he came into management.
That post makes no sense. Just admit you were wrong.
 

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We're talking about England and British based goalkeepers around the early 90's period.

A Wikepedia description for one keeper from Holland is neither here nor there really.

Schmeichel was the best keeper in the world when the rule change came in and he was a hoof ball merchant like all the others. Fortunately he had a great throw on him.

As I said Guardiola couldn't train England's number one to do it.

It's dead simple this. Over a 20 year period goalkeepers had to become better and better with the ball. The backpass rule made that essential. I wouldn't have thought this disagreeable.

Whatever our guess work that 20 year process made Guardiola's job of finding a ball playing keeper a lot easier when he came into management.
I think it’s perfectly valid to find sweeper keepers boring. How entertaining you find a particular style of football is subjective, so that’s absolutely fair enough.

But your argument is all over the place. You’ve keep stating that the back pass rule has failed according to its objective. But that objective seems to merely be your personal opinion.

You bring up a rule that affects the game worldwide. But when other posters bring up counter examples of ball playing keepers from before the rule change you move the goal posts to limit the discussion to this country.

Finally, the current trend of sweeper keepers is somehow mainly caused by the rule change… despite it taking 20 years to fully take effect.

Guardiola played Valdes, Neuer and Emerson because he’s an attacking coach whose teams outscore everyone in large part because they are effectively operating with an extra outfield player. This is would be the case whether the back pass rule was implemented or not.
 

Kelly15

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I'd like to see a back pass rule kind of like the NBA. Id like to see it where once you get the ball into the final 1/3 you can not pass back over the half way line.
 

Marwood

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I think it’s perfectly valid to find sweeper keepers boring. How entertaining you find a particular style of football is subjective, so that’s absolutely fair enough.

But your argument is all over the place. You’ve keep stating that the back pass rule has failed according to its objective. But that objective seems to merely be your personal opinion.

You bring up a rule that affects the game worldwide. But when other posters bring up counter examples of ball playing keepers from before the rule change you move the goal posts to limit the discussion to this country.

Finally, the current trend of sweeper keepers is somehow mainly caused by the rule change… despite it taking 20 years to fully take effect.

Guardiola played Valdes, Neuer and Emerson because he’s an attacking coach whose teams outscore everyone in large part because they are effectively operating with an extra outfield player. This is would be the case whether the back pass rule was implemented or not.
I haven't said the rule has failed. It's been an awesome rule change and obviously still affects the game today.

Can't believe I have to explain this again but my point is over time, teams have adapted to the rule(which yes has taken a long time) and kind of flipped it on his head.

Here's an example:

I watched the first half of the 94 cup final the other day. United vs Chelsea.

There wasn't a single ball played back to the keeper. For either team! That was the effect of the rule change. Today it's the opposite yes? The keeper is involved more than ever. So rule change has been adapted to and now provokes a totally different reaction from teams. We've gone from avoiding the keeper at all costs and playing the ball forwards to using him whenever possible and playing more horizontally and backwards.

I'm not going to be convinced that the game wasn't at the time played that way because one poster googled "ball playing goalkeepers 1970's" and found one dutch guy.
 

Zehner

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I haven't said the rule has failed. It's been an awesome rule change and obviously still affects the game today.

Can't believe I have to explain this again but my point is over time, teams have adapted to the rule(which yes has taken a long time) and kind of flipped it on his head.

Here's an example:

I watched the first half of the 94 cup final the other day. United vs Chelsea.

There wasn't a single ball played back to the keeper. For either team! That was the effect of the rule change. Today it's the opposite yes? The keeper is involved more than ever. So rule change has been adapted to and now provokes a totally different reaction from teams. We've gone from avoiding the keeper at all costs and playing the ball forwards to using him whenever possible and playing more horizontally and backwards.

I'm not going to be convinced that the game wasn't at the time played that way because one poster googled "ball playing goalkeepers 1970's" and found one dutch guy.
You claimed Guardiola wouldn't have had the idea to play a keeper this way without the rule change, yet the idea predates the rule change as proven. And coincidently in the team that basically founded the style he stands for.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Which team even does that?
What, pass the ball across the back line for 30 seconds, routinely? Most of the top sides.

The Most popular passing combinations for top teams are Keeper to full back or centre half. Followed closely by centre half to full back.

It eats time. All the time.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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I haven't said the rule has failed. It's been an awesome rule change and obviously still affects the game today.

Can't believe I have to explain this again but my point is over time, teams have adapted to the rule(which yes has taken a long time) and kind of flipped it on his head.

Here's an example:

I watched the first half of the 94 cup final the other day. United vs Chelsea.

There wasn't a single ball played back to the keeper. For either team! That was the effect of the rule change. Today it's the opposite yes? The keeper is involved more than ever. So rule change has been adapted to and now provokes a totally different reaction from teams. We've gone from avoiding the keeper at all costs and playing the ball forwards to using him whenever possible and playing more horizontally and backwards.

I'm not going to be convinced that the game wasn't at the time played that way because one poster googled "ball playing goalkeepers 1970's" and found one dutch guy.
Your question is sound bud. Of course the pass back rule made things better. It’s how evolved to a place where keepers have a great first touch and can pass as well as centre backs.

Fun amendments would be;

- Keepers cannot revive a pass inside the penalty box
- Keepers cannot pass to a player in their own half.

Yes I’m sure it may prove to be mental. But it would absolutely result in more possession lost, which is almost always a good thing in terms of equalising teams.

In 10-20 years it would be coached around and require another change. Which is quite ok.
 

Marwood

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You claimed Guardiola wouldn't have had the idea to play a keeper this way without the rule change, yet the idea predates the rule change as proven. And coincidently in the team that basically founded the style he stands for.
No I didn't.

I doubted if he could pull it off with a pre rule change goalkeeper. Go back and have a look.

Because that keeper would be asked to go from barely making a pass to spraying around 40 passes a game.

It took a full generation(at least) for keepers to improve in this regard. So asking one to do it overnight seems improbable.
 

Zehner

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What, pass the ball across the back line for 30 seconds, routinely? Most of the top sides.

The Most popular passing combinations for top teams are Keeper to full back or centre half. Followed closely by centre half to full back.

It eats time. All the time.
30 seconds are not "ages". What is next, preventing CBs to pass to each other? Only forward passes are allowed?

Hope something like this is never even considered. I'm glad the kick'n'rush days are over.

No I didn't.

I doubted if he could pull it off with a pre rule change goalkeeper. Go back and have a look.

Because that keeper would be asked to go from barely making a pass to spraying around 40 passes a game.

It took a full generation(at least) for keepers to improve in this regard. So asking one to do it overnight seems improbable.
Only that you've been shown that there were keepers like this around 28 years before the rule change. So no, it didn't took a full generation. There were always ball playing keepers around, especially in total football teams, and even without the rule change, Guardiola could just have signed one.

I mean, why would it even take a full generation for keepers to learn how to make some basic passes and stop the ball eith their feet?
 

Marwood

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30 seconds are not "ages". What is next, preventing CBs to pass to each other? Only forward passes are allowed?

Hope something like this is never even considered. I'm glad the kick'n'rush days are over.



Only that you've been shown that there were keepers like this around 28 years before the rule change. So no, it didn't took a full generation. There were always ball playing keepers around, especially in total football teams, and even without the rule change, Guardiola could just have signed one.

I mean, why would it even take a full generation for keepers to learn how to make some basic passes and stop the ball eith their feet?
You googled and found a wikepedia entry for a dutch keeper in the 70's. Have you watched a lot of him? How you think that's a convincing argument is beyond me. It's up there with you thinking Guardiola would play an outfield player in goal.

I don't know why it took a full generation but it did. 30 years after the rule change and De Gea is still criticised as not being good enough with his feet. As are many of the potential replacements for him. As I said, Guardiola quickly sold Englands number one for that reason. You're denying reality here.
 

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What, pass the ball across the back line for 30 seconds, routinely? Most of the top sides.

The Most popular passing combinations for top teams are Keeper to full back or centre half. Followed closely by centre half to full back.

It eats time. All the time.
This is because very few top teams routinely pump it long from their goal kicks anymore. Interestingly, this actually is the direct effect of a rule change… but it’s the one involving passing to your own players within the penalty box from goal kicks.

Teams don’t pass out from the back because the GK is no longer allowed to pick up the ball. In fact, the back pass rule has made that tactic demonstrably more dangerous to pursue than before. They pass out from the back because they’ve assembled teams where all of the players in their team are comfortable with ball at their feet.
 
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Zehner

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You googled and found a wikepedia entry for a dutch keeper in the 70's. Have you watched a lot of him? How you think that's a convincing argument is beyond me. It's up there with you thinking Guardiola would play an outfield player in goal.

I don't know why it took a full generation but it did. 30 years after the rule change and De Gea is still criticised as not being good enough with his feet. As are many of the potential replacements for him. As I said, Guardiola quickly sold Englands number one for that reason. You're denying reality here.
No, I didn't just "google it". I knew that the trend of the ball playing keeper was started by total football coaches, I just didn't know when it was introduced and so looked for one of the earliest applications of the style and wow, the ball playing keeper was already a thing back then. See, I think you simply don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand why teams like City deploy a keeper like they do and which effects it has on the attacking style of the team. And if you understood that, you'd never think that there would be no ball playing keepers without the rule change.

Moreover, even ignoring the whole total football stuff, the idea that no keeper prior to 1992 would possess the technical ability to participate in the build up is ridiculous. There have always been keepers that started as outfield players and then moved to goal. There have always been keepers with great technical ability, like Chilavert, Ceni and Higuaita.

If you want to prevent keepers from "ball playing", fine, that's your opinion but please don't pretend it's dilution of some rule change (which implies that something needs to be done about it, by the way).
 

Marwood

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No, I didn't just "google it". I knew that the trend of the ball playing keeper was started by total football coaches, I just didn't know when it was introduced and so looked for one of the earliest applications of the style and wow, the ball playing keeper was already a thing back then. See, I think you simply don't know what you're talking about. You don't understand why teams like City deploy a keeper like they do and which effects it has on the attacking style of the team. And if you understood that, you'd never think that there would be no ball playing keepers without the rule change.

Moreover, even ignoring the whole total football stuff, the idea that no keeper prior to 1992 would possess the technical ability to participate in the build up is ridiculous. There have always been keepers that started as outfield players and then moved to goal. There have always been keepers with great technical ability, like Chilavert, Ceni and Higuaita.

If you want to prevent keepers from "ball playing", fine, that's your opinion but please don't pretend it's dilution of some rule change (which implies that something needs to be done about it, by the way).
I just wanted a chat about football.

But you've turned it into an argument, you're trying to win the conversation. Let's leave it there.
 

Josh 76

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How did people even pay to see this shite?
It was so normal when it was happening that the fans didn’t know anything else. A bit like what life was like before mobile phones. Both are unthinkable now.
 

Marwood

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How did people even pay to see this shite?
It was so normal when it was happening that the fans didn’t know anything else. A bit like what life was like before mobile phones. Both are unthinkable now.
If we ever get on top of diving and feigning pain it'll be similar. We'll look back and wonder how watching players rolling around holdong their shins was ever ok.
 

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Nope. However it is amazing to see how GK have evolved. So many through passes now get intercepted by GKs 30 meters from their goal. GKs also participate in build up by moving the ball from one side to the other.

I'm only salty because so many great passes are intercepted by alert GKs who position themselves correctly. 15 years ago most GKs would be much closer to the goal and not follow what is going on 60 or 70 meters away from their goal.