Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

Frank White

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Yeah fair enough. My enduring memory of those games for whatever reason is Rashford walking around and maguire and Cavani bombing around him trying to make something happen. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. He was making Berbarov look like Tevez at certain points last season:nono:

That’s the thing. If he’s one of our main players and that’s the kind of standard and workrate/output that’s being put on a pedestal around here
then we aren’t going to be winning next year or the year after. Rashford has gears. He’ll improve again. I just don’t like being told he’s one of the best performing players in the league purely based on stats. I watch all the games. I see our problems and I like to talk about them on here. Rashfords patchy form and workrate definitely currently falls into that category for me.
Who has actually done that though? Even Rashford’s most ardent supporters can’t deny that the work rate hasn’t been there.
 

Abraxas

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Nope, there are players like Sterling or Fermino who aren't that much better than Rashford and they were integral to title winning sides, hell there is even a Marc Albrighton who isn't even near as good Rashford and was still an integral part of a PL winning team, it's not the individual players that wins titles, it's the total sum of a collection of players plus a great manager that wins titles, if we win the title anytime soon, Rashford might be an integral of the winning team or might be just a squad option, we don't know that but what we know is that he is actually good enough to be key player in a winning team, that much is true at least
I think this is pretty much how I feel about Rashford.

This is a balanced and fair appraisal. Most players are never as great as people make out when they're in top form, but the reverse is also true, Rashford hasn't suddenly become an average player or lost his status as one of our key players. He's certainly in very poor form in performance terms, if not poor statistical form.

The jury might be out on whether he'll reach the levels some may have envisaged when he broke through, but he's still a very productive footballer and there is no doubt he would be in demand on the market if he was for sale, and I reckon from some of the biggest clubs.

This is more of a problem in the way people knee jerk from one response to another or become keen to make categorical and often hyperbolic statements than anything else. Perhaps it makes for a more "interesting" opinion but it's usually the balanced and reasoned verdict that is most accurate.
 

Ali Dia

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I think England’s minimal use of him, his actual performances in 2021 and Marcus subsequent quotes have proved some of us right about his standard of play. It’s not good enough and he’s been frustrating. There were far too many times this season where he was literally walking, gets the ball, loses it, breaks down play and made no effort at all to get it back, over and over but you couldn’t point that out for some reason. That’s not good enough for England and it shouldn’t be good enough for United if we want to win stuff. End of story. We need to play with intensity and one important player walking around game after game sets a dreadful tone I’m afraid. It was literally painful to watch.

Now the next thing is Ole. What the actual feck? He was playing him in every single game to the point of even bringing him on in dead rubbers, no matter the previous performances or body language. We were forced to watch Rashford struggle through game after game when there were other options in the squad if he’d just adapted the team or formation. It’s ok to play someone through pain for a match or even a few matches in an emergency but what the hell is this? Was Rashford playing on painkillers for an entire season? Oles overuse of Bruno and Rashford this season actually makes me mad. They were both out of form and visibly wrecked by the final and still are to this day. What the hell is going on here? He can say the lads always wanted to play, brave lads etc but he’s getting paid an absolute fortune to make these calls over the players heads. Like their form completely dropped off and they were visibly well off it. Very poor from him.

I said well over a month ago that Dan James would have a better individual Euros in a far worse team than Marcus and I’ve been proved correct so far. Aggression, work rate and fitness are massively underrated on here and seemingly by Ole too. You have to earn the right to walk around a football pitch. Maybe when you’re a few goals up but right from the start of games? We played into the oppositions hands too many times last season and using Rashford as our main outlet so often was a big part of that.

I hope he can get fit next season and show us all the beast of a player that’s in there. He can definitely do it. He has all the talent and he obviously cares enough about the club to play through pain. We need to leave behind the days where walking around the pitch with a pained expression like Pogba Martial and now Rashofrd has almost become the norm. Full fitness, belief and aggression and this team can definitely go up a level and take the next step. We are so close!
Now for anyone wondering about why this thread regularly disintegrates into the farce it is : I’ve had to go from posting this which i think is very fair to 2 pages of Roonster (with 150 posts and counting , by faaaaar the most in this thread and who has said on numerous occasions he doesn’t actually even post in here, big differnce between never posting and posting 150 times one might call that a lie) calling me a liar for incorrectly listing Rashfords league goals in 2021 as 1 instead of 4 about 3 weeks ago in the rush on the way home from work. That’s what you’re up against. You can make your own mind up and decide who is actually acting like they are part of a cult in here.

I’m out! Can’t be dealing!
 

roonster09

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Now for anyone wondering about why this thread regularly disintegrates into the farce it is : I’ve had to go from posting this which i think is very fair to 2 pages of Roonster (with 150 posts and counting , by faaaaar the most in this thread and who has said on numerous occasions he doesn’t actually even post in here, big differnce between never posting and posting 150 times one might call that a lie) calling me a liar for incorrectly listing Rashfords league goals in 2021 as 1 instead of 4 about 3 weeks ago in the rush on the way home from work. That’s what you’re up against. You can make your own mind up and decide who is actually acting like they are part of a cult in here.

I’m out! Can’t be dealing!
Play the victim card when it was you who started moaning about me for no reason and this is not even the first time.

Why are you giving half information, tell them how you repeatedly used the "1 goal" thing and then talked about goal contribution and then switched to goals only as he had few assists. Then blamed Rashford for other ManUtd players not putting up good numbers (Completely ignoring the obvious reasons), calling 7th in Goals + assists as average stats and even posted he was at the bottom of the list when he was 6th or 7th in G+A. Then came up with even ridiculous point that list had to be extended to 6 or 7 to fit in Rashford (when the argument was how many G+A Rashford had and where he stands among the other players in the league), when he was the only ManUtd player to even make top 10. But yeah, all in good faith. Lets not forget trying to play down those stats initially with "yeah he played in Europe and domestic cups" when the stats was about PL only, and then the usual mental gymnastics.

And the usual lie in the post. The thread started to go this way when you started to moan about me in your posts. "Oh caf posters, please judge us but judge me on one decent post I made" :lol:

Re bold part, lets see.

Nobody said that. You and others are always acting like this is personal. Winning titles is our business at the end of the day. If your main undroppable forward is low energy and predictable that sets a poor tone for the rest of the team. It also leaves us predictable and open to be sucker punched on the counter while we push forward struggling to score or create. Why can’t people separate the two things?

Me and @stw2022 (as far as I can see, correct me if I’m wrong) two of the most outspoken people in this thread have only been talking about winning football matches, squad status and a player the manager seemingly had a massive mental block about dropping no matter of the evidence presented week after week. Don’t you think the fact he now can’t even get into the England team from being an absolute nailed on starter says a lot more about where he actually is form wise vs his peers than @roonster09 going :lol: :lol: :lol: and blindly posting stats? If it’s not good enough for England it shouldn’t have been good enough for United either. I care about United winning more than the stats of Rashford or any other particular player. I genuinely couldn’t give a shit if Rashford doesn’t score or assist for 6 months if he was genuinely working his ass off and driving the team forward. The numbers will always come if the work is there. In a top team walking around and picking up sporadic numbers isn’t ever going to be good enough to win anything. Why can’t you guys get that? It’s not and never was personal or about numbers.
 

Bebestation

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Rashford workrate was always average, what he always had was intensity. Except 2018-19 season, he averaged around 10-12 pressures per 90 mins, which isn't good. Only time where he had decent pressures per 90 mins was in 2018-19 season, he averaged 15-16 in that season.

What Rashford always had was intensity when he had the ball, something that he lacked this season. Hopefully he gets everything sorted after Euros, need fit and firing Rashford along with Sancho which makes our squad very strong, at least in the attack.
Yeah I agree. He was average to decent at work rate but people talk like he was Martial all this time before this season when he has lost that intensity and work rate clearly due to injury.

One of the most annoying things though was how Rashford was playing before his injury - the guy was phenomenal and scoring goals for fun - to me he seemed like he was just starting to get up another level.

However the injury came during that time and he hasn’t been able to play like that yet again.

Do you remember the time he got injured? I think he was playing with Martial and Greenwood and he was absolutely scoring for the fun of it.
 

roonster09

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Yeah I agree. He was average to decent at work rate but people talk like he was Martial all this time before this season when he has lost that intensity and work rate clearly due to injury.

One of the most annoying things though was how Rashford was playing before his injury - the guy was phenomenal and scoring goals for fun - to me he seemed like he was just starting to get up another level.

However the injury came during that time and he hasn’t been able to play like that yet.

Do you remember the time he got injured? I think he was playing with Martial and Greenwood and he was absolutely scoring for the fun of it.
I think he was playing with Martial and James (Greenwood became regular after the restart). He was so good, taking on defenders, skillful, scored, assisted and won penalties. I think it was after the international break, starting with the goal vs Liverpool. Vs Spurs and City he was very good, probably his best games. City couldn't handle him then the injury.

I hope he gets everything sorted. If we sign Sancho then we are good too, don't have to rely on him. So he can get his injury sorted. We will have very good options with Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, Martial, Cavani, Bruno as our attackers.
 

Bebestation

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I think he was playing with Martial and James (Greenwood became regular after the restart). He was so good, taking on defenders, skillful, scored, assisted and won penalties. I think it was after the international break, starting with the goal vs Liverpool. Vs Spurs and City he was very good, probably his best games. City couldn't handle him then the injury.

I hope he gets everything sorted. If we sign Sancho then we are good too, don't have to rely on him. So he can get his injury sorted. We will have very good options with Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, Martial, Cavani, Bruno as our attackers.
Yeah it was exactly that - I remember the game he played vs City and during that time he was just scoring non stop, tap ins, headers, dribbles and finishes.

I hope he can get back to that after he sorts his injuries out and get a bit of a break - hopefully we have some rotating ability now with Sancho, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Amad and Cavani.
 

roonster09

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Yeah it was exactly that - I remember the game he played vs City and during that time he was just scoring non stop, tap ins, headers, dribbles and finishes.

I hope he can get back to that after he sorts his injuries out and get a bit of a break - hopefully we have some rotating ability now with Sancho, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Amad and Cavani.
Yeah, hopefully Ole trusts his squad this time. We played strong team against Sociedad when we had 4-0 lead (I think Bruno started) and we had no midweek breaks forever. We should make full use of numbers we have (or will have this season).
 

Ali Dia

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Play the victim card when it was you who started moaning about me for no reason and this is not even the first time.

Why are you giving half information, tell them how you repeatedly used the "1 goal" thing and then talked about goal contribution and then switched to goals only as he had few assists. Then blamed Rashford for other ManUtd players not putting up good numbers (Completely ignoring the obvious reasons), calling 7th in Goals + assists as average stats and even posted he was at the bottom of the list when he was 6th or 7th in G+A. Then came up with even ridiculous point that list had to be extended to 6 or 7 to fit in Rashford (when the argument was how many G+A Rashford had and where he stands among the other players in the league), when he was the only ManUtd player to even make top 10. But yeah, all in good faith. Lets not forget trying to play down those stats initially with "yeah he played in Europe and domestic cups" when the stats was about PL only, and then the usual mental gymnastics.

And the usual lie in the post. The thread started to go this way when you started to moan about me in your posts. "Oh caf posters, please judge us" :lol:

Re bold part, lets see.
I’ve genuinely taken this as far, and far further to be honest, than I could possibly ever imagined it going. If you can’t see what the posters in this thread have been trying to say about the football , nothing to do with kids or tories or anything else, not from me anyway, then fair enough. I admire your stubbornness I have to say. You don’t give up, genuinely meant as a compliment.

I said he hasn’t been good enough. Rashford himself literally said he’s not been good enough. His international manger has said it with his selections. Even his stats have surely dropped off since the turn of 2021 and we are all seeing evidence of that on the pitch and in our results and overall play? In my book 6th or 7th in the league for xg isn’t anything worth arguing for 30 pages over. Or is he just 6th because he’s an automatic starter in a top team? it’s not his fault he’s played in absolutely every game going but we as a club should be aiming to have #1, 2 and 3 on the xg list and not just counting our lucky stars that we have anyone at all. Can you not see that’s a symptom of the malaise that’s crept in here in the post Fergie years? I’d rather loads of scrappy 1-0s with 90th minute maguire goals and win the league than pasting a team 9-0 and 5-0 and dining out all season on it, even though they were fecking class games and hopefully a sign of things to come :drool:

Going forward we would all like to have a hard working and world class forward line I assume? I feel like that’s going to be impossible unless Rashfords game changes back to the livewire way it was pre injury or we at least use him a lot more sparingly while he sorts his fitness out. I really do want him to do well. He has the tools to surpass the likes of Salah and Son but if we want to win now we can’t be waiting around another 5 years playing him in every game in the meantime. You’re only really ever as good as your last few games…

Anyway. I’m actually supposed by studying. Its always the way… :lol:
 

roonster09

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I’ve genuinely taken this as far, and far further to be honest, than I could possibly ever imagined it going. If you can’t see what the posters in this thread have been trying to say about the football , nothing to do with kids or tories or anything else, not from me anyway, then fair enough. I admire your stubbornness I have to say. You don’t give up, genuinely meant as a compliment.

I said he hasn’t been good enough. Rashford himself literally said he’s not been good enough. His international manger has said it with his selections. Even his stats have surely dropped off since the turn of 2021 and we are all seeing evidence of that on the pitch and in our results and overall play? In my book 6th or 7th in the league for xg isn’t anything worth arguing for 30 pages over. Or is he just 6th because he’s an automatic starter in a top team? it’s not his fault he’s played in absolutely every game going but we as a club should be aiming to have #1, 2 and 3 on the xg list and not just counting our lucky stars that we have anyone at all. Can you not see that’s a symptom of the malaise that’s crept in here in the post Fergie years? I’d rather loads of scrappy 1-0s with 90th minute maguire goals and win the league than pasting a team 9-0 and 5-0 and dining out all season on it, even though they were fecking class games and hopefully a sign of things to come :drool:

Going forward we would all like to have a hard working and world class forward line I assume? I feel like that’s going to be impossible unless Rashfords game changes back to the livewire way it was pre injury or we at least use him a lot more sparingly while he sorts his fitness out. I really do want him to do well. He has the tools to surpass the likes of Salah and Son but if we want to win now we can’t be waiting around another 5 years playing him in every game in the meantime. You’re only really ever as good as your last few games…

Anyway. I’m actually supposed by studying. Its always the way… :lol:
Fair enough. Let's move on.
 

Jibbs

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So? Anyone argued that these 2 are anywhere near Ronaldo and Rooney?

Will they win league with this team and manager? Don't think so. Give the same team tk SAF, our chances of winning leagues would be much higher.
Put Prime Rooney and Ronaldo in current United side and we would be winning league titles easily. Heck, even a 37 years old Ronaldo would make us title contenders. Put Rashford and Martial in 06-09. United would have struggled just like the struggle now.
 

Bebestation

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Put Prime Rooney and Ronaldo in current United side and we would be winning league titles easily. Heck, even a 37 years old Ronaldo would make us title contenders. Put Rashford and Martial in 06-09. United would have struggled just like the struggle now.
in my eyes -
If we managed to buy Rashford as our replacement for C Ronaldo rather than Antonio Valencia and Ashley Young :drool:

We would have been much better than the way we struggled towards SAF’s end.
 

roonster09

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Put Prime Rooney and Ronaldo in current United side and we would be winning league titles easily. Heck, even a 37 years old Ronaldo would make us title contenders. Put Rashford and Martial in 06-09. United would have struggled just like the struggle now.
With the managers we had and McFred midfield?

Yeah, put AWB in 06-09 team we would have won treble trebles.

The biggest reason we won titles is SAF. Put him in charge along with Ronaldo and Rooney then we are for sure contenders.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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This is more of a problem in the way people knee jerk from one response to another or become keen to make categorical and often hyperbolic statements than anything else. Perhaps it makes for a more "interesting" opinion but it's usually the balanced and reasoned verdict that is most accurate.
this is actually the norm here sadly.
 

big rons sovereign

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Put Prime Rooney and Ronaldo in current United side and we would be winning league titles easily. Heck, even a 37 years old Ronaldo would make us title contenders. Put Rashford and Martial in 06-09. United would have struggled just like the struggle now.
I see the point, but that's taking a lot away from that team.
Eddie, Rio, Vidic, paddy, Neville, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, tevez, Fletcher, park, Nani....

That squad was stacked with creativity and strength in every direction.
 

Jibbs

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I see the point, but that's taking a lot away from that team.
Eddie, Rio, Vidic, paddy, Neville, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, tevez, Fletcher, park, Nani....

That squad was stacked with creativity and strength in every direction.
Agree but that side is nothing without it's attack... my point is if we are to improve just one area it has to be attack. Sancho is a step in right direction.
 

Bebestation

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In 2011 we won the title without Ronaldo - just Berbatov, Rooney and Chicarito as our attack - the rest of the team playing behind was clearly important.
 

Luke1995

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I think we, the fans, are desperate for the next homegrown world class player the club is going to produce.

So, people have hope that Rashford could become that and support him more

It really has been a while since a player from the academy went in to have massive sucess in competitions like the PL and the Champions League.