Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

stw2022

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I don’t get the animosity, we now agree. Rashford has had the kind of season we’ll look back at in years to come and marvel at.

The only issue is whether now is the time for him to undergo surgery
 

roonster09

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I don’t get the animosity, we now agree. Rashford has had the kind of season we’ll look back at in years to come and marvel at.

The only issue is whether now is the time for him to undergo surgery
We agree that you are a troll/WUM?

Glad we are on same page then.
 

stw2022

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Okay look I’m trying to find the stat that tells me Rashford has under performed. I know the error of my ways I cannot use ‘watching him play’ or that laughable ‘eye test’ that was mentioned.

So I’m confused as every stat you’ve produced show this is the best Marcus Rashford we’ve ever seen. If you have a stat or stats to suggest otherwise then please let’s see them. If not I’d politely suggest you stop putting down one of our players
 

roonster09

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'eye test' :lol:

Hilarious people come up with 'eye test' nonsense.

Eye test is important and that's for the football scouts, not for agenda driven posters.
 

stw2022

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'eye test' :lol:

Hilarious people come up with 'eye test' nonsense.

Eye test is important and that's for the football scouts, not for agenda driven posters.
:lol: Yes lad, innit.

But joking aside let’s get serious for a moment. Which stat to you suggests there’s been any dip in his performance because of injury
 

roonster09

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:lol: Yes lad, innit.

But joking aside let’s get serious for a moment. Which stat to you suggests there’s been any dip in his performance because of injury
Couldn't care less.
 

stw2022

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Couldn't care less.
so you agree his in the form of his life ?

Cool.

For a second there it looked as if you were throwing stats that showed that he’s had the season of his career so far at everyone and calling them morons for using the ‘eye test’ yet were resistant to the assertion he had been top class this season almost as if you come to that judgement through watching him play and using your ...(I’ll whisper it)....eyes, and had no stats to provide to back that up.

But glad to clarify that definitely isn’t the case

:lol: Eye test indeed:lol::lol:
 

Carl

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Think there's a few of you that need a break from this thread.
 

roonster09

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so you agree his in the form of his life ?

Cool.

For a second there it looked as if you were throwing stats that showed that he’s had the season of his career so far at everyone and calling them morons for using the ‘eye test’ yet were resistant to the assertion he had been top class this season almost as if you come to that judgement through watching him play and using your ...(I’ll whisper it)....eyes, and had no stats to provide to back that up.

But glad to clarify that definitely isn’t the case

:lol: Eye test indeed:lol::lol:
"Eye test" instead of saying agenda driven biased nonsense.

Like I said you are good at arguing imaginary points. No one said Rashford had great season, the argument was about his productivity, that's when stats were posted to show how productive he is.

Then someone else said he doesn't take on players that's when the dribbling stats were posted. Then one more talked about dribble success rate, that's when his dribbling success rate was posted in comparison with other attackers in the league.

In short people with agenda posted nonsense, using 'eye test'" nonsense. Others showed how the post was wrong and in few cases how stupid it was.

Then in middle of all that there are posters like you who runs away after posting nonsense and start again fresh everyday. Post wrong stats intentionally and when pointed out, just run away and wait for another day to start the same nonsense.
 

dinostar77

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One of the sunday papers said Rashford may miss start of next season as he needs a foot and shoulder op which has been delayed as he wanted to play in the Euros but also explains his indifferent form this season as he's been carrying the injuries for awhile.
 

stw2022

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One of the sunday papers said Rashford may miss start of next season as he needs a foot and shoulder op which has been delayed as he wanted to play in the Euros but also explains his indifferent form this season as he's been carrying the injuries for awhile.
I can understand why he’d want to go to Euros. It does raise questions when it became clear he needed these operations and why he continued to make himself available and was picked so often despite being in need of two ops

To me at no point in the last five months of the season was he anywhere close to imperative to the team to the point where you’d worry for our chances of a result without him.
 

Hammondo

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Also really enjoying this other one saying RedCafe is falling prey to the #woke SJW Boogeyman because he got banned for saying an injury is a SCAM.

Preach, lad! They're all blind, only you can convince them to take the red pill
That guy got banned for claiming rashfords injury is a scam?
 

Stormpetrel

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Forgive some of us for being skeptical due to the fact that both the date for the surgery and
the actual injury to be treated have kept changing.

The skepticism was informed by such reports and we hope Utd can come out and authoritatively confirm the surgery.
Your posts have been as far from skepticism as they could be.
 

NasirTimothy

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Possibly. I don't think his technical ability is bad necessarily but I do think when you're talking about the type of player sides with expectations of challenging for the major trophies he begins to look average in comparison. We should be seeing his name on the team sheet and expecting a performance, if not every time then most times. I don't think we're anywhere near that.
He’s sometimes frustrating because his technique seems to come and go, he will do something amazing and then something terrible. But he’s definitely a talented player who needs to be supported. He’s actually doing pretty well now, and when he gets to his mid-late 20s he will be his best self.
 

Pickle85

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Not to mention "18 year old Wanye Kest Rooney as our main goal threat" only happened because the actual main goal threat was injured for most of the season, and it didn't even work that well. He scored 11 league goals and we finished 18 points off the champions. The way that guy phrased it, you'd think young Wazza singlehandedly fired his team to the title.

From memory, Rooney scored 12 league goals and had 10-12 assists the season he turned 23, playing in a way better team - Rashford had 11 and 9 just now. Was Rooney a better player than Rashford at the same age? Yes, but he also had the same tendency to misfire in front of goal, go on hot streaks followed by droughts, and disguise some average to poor performances with decisive goals or assists.

And that's the point all the people defending him make: Rashford is far, far closer to that level than the ludicrous Welbeck/Lingard comparisons that keep popping up in these topics.
Agreed re him being closer to Rooney than Lingard, but stats aside Rooney's game was a couple of levels above Rashford's at the same age. Also, Rooney's work rate was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Rashford's, so even when he had an off day he'd still contribute in harrying and pressing whereas Marcus is too quick to throw his arms up and give up. I really rate Rashford but it does seem like his development has stalled a little. Hoping he kicks on again next season.
 

stw2022

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Agreed re him being closer to Rooney than Lingard, but stats aside Rooney's game was a couple of levels above Rashford's at the same age. Also, Rooney's work rate was SIGNIFICANTLY better
Oh in almost all ways, Rooney was a superior footballer on day one when he got here compared to what Rashford is now. He’s several step behind that standard
 

Pickle85

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Oh in almost all ways, Rooney was a superior footballer on day one when he got here compared to what Rashford is now. He’s several step behind that standard
Agreed. I do think Rashford has it in him to go up another level or two but it's whether he has the mentality. If he had Ronaldo's mindset (very, very few do obviously) then I think that ultimately he could be right up there with the best in the league, if not the world.
 

stw2022

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Agreed. I do think Rashford has it in him to go up another level or two but it's whether he has the mentality. If he had Ronaldo's mindset (very, very few do obviously) then I think that ultimately he could be right up there with the best in the league, if not the world.
Indeed even Rooney never had Ronnie’s dedication to conditioning and preparation. Rashford doesn’t seem to share the same work rate as either. He does walk around the pitch like he’s Eric Cantona at times which worries me for a young player still developing. I think he’d be disabused off that attitude fairly sharpish if Fergie were still in charge or he had Keane for a team mate
 

Pickle85

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Indeed even Rooney never had Ronnie’s dedication to conditioning and preparation. Rashford doesn’t seem to share the same work rate as either. He does walk around the pitch like he’s Eric Cantona at times which worries me for a young player still developing. I think he’d be disabused off that attitude fairly sharpish if Fergie were still in charge or he had Keane for a team mate
Agree with all that. Keano would have some words for a number of the current United incarnation tbh, for better or worse!
 

Halftrack

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To warn any new posters, this thread got me banned for two days because I claimed to believe that his injury was a scam. So please refrain from opinions that might seem negatively polarizing.

I hope to be proven wrong after the Euros when Rashford goes for his scheduled surgery as many have claimed here and in the news. If the surgery happens, without being caused by another injury in the Euros, I will ask the moderators to ban me for 3 months, or without bothering them, I will keep away for 3 months.

However, we are at a point of being forced to think that players who spend 90 mins trying to fool match officials to get decisions their way are now some saints incapable of engaging in manipulation to shape the narrative about their performances.

I apologize to anyone I offended here by my assertions. I hope we dont make this place an echo chamber for sugar coated woke football opinions.
You were probably suspended for stating completely unfounded accusations as a fact, and using that "fact" to attack the player.

It's not about making the place an echo chamber (and I'm not sure wher wokeness comes into it), it's about ensuring a certain standard of debate. You repeatedly, and with absolute certainty, accusing Rashford of "scamming" people with his injury is far beyond what's generally considered acceptable on here.
 

roonster09

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He also has the most nutmegs in world football I hear. This isn't terribly important but I enjoyed hearing about it all the same.
Yeah correct. Not important stat but I like it.
 

Judas

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It does literally no one any favours him going to the Euros. Doesn't say much for the England setup and our own that he's going to potentially be playing a load more games when clearly needs surgery, people should have stepped in for his own good.

I hate to think of the long term ramifications it could have.
 

Withnail

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He should be nowhere near the Euros. Get the surgery now, rest up and concentrate on returning to 100% for the start of the new season.
Yeah that's easy to say and possibly objectively true but a lot of players would play through the pain barrier to represent their country in the Euros or World Cup.

I know if it was me I'd run through brick walls to represent my country.

It's also possible that whatever it is isn't going to cause any long term damage by delaying surgery til after the Euros.
 

Rolaholic

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He'll occupy an influential role in the England squad this summer yet some people don't understand why he wants to wait for surgery after
 

roonster09

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He'll occupy an influential role in the England squad this summer yet some people don't understand why he wants to wait for surgery after
Exactly. Easy to come up with "His priority should be ManUtd and ManUtd only" when they have nothing to lose.
 

Number32

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The last time United produce a class centre forward was Mark Hughes, then there's high hope for Rossi, Macheda, W Kean, and Wilson who failed miserably. Rashford is class, but to think he will reach Ronaldo's level is ridiculous.
 

jackal&hyde

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In a season where he played through injury while needing actual surgery he has 21 goals and 15 assists. He can and will be even better then this while fit and with more squad depth so we don't play him in to the ground. He doesn't need to be Ronaldo to be exceptional.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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What a proud moment for Rashford and his family today. To even play, let alone captain England must be what dreams are made of.

Hasn't had the best second half of the season but really hope he has a good international duty (if he plays much) and comes back to us next season full of confidence.

Absolutely buzzing for him
 

Halftrack

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He'll occupy an influential role in the England squad this summer yet some people don't understand why he wants to wait for surgery after
Was wondering why everyone in the replies were talking about some Louis guy, but apparently some One Direction fellow shared it and his fans are commenting on it just because of that. People are weird.
 

9 Stone Elvis

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Surely any football fan will use a combination of statistics as well as what they see what they watch a player in order to come to an opinion about that player? Is that not what we do every time we are linked with a new signing? Player X has scored X number of goals and every time Ive seen him he looks like he would fit in with how we want play etc etc

I dont understand why this is so unreasonable when it comes to Rashford. We can look at his stats and also look at the games he plays and arrive at our opinion as to what kind of season he has had. Personally for me from watching him I dont think he has had a very good season but that is mitigated somewhat by the number of goals he has scored and any forward scoring 20 goals in a season is not bad. That said 11 league goals isnt particularly prolific either.

This feels like a very attritional discussion whereby you have to be in one camp or the other (a bit like VAR) and I dont see why that needs to be the case.
 

InspiRED

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Surely any football fan will use a combination of statistics as well as what they see what they watch a player in order to come to an opinion about that player? Is that not what we do every time we are linked with a new signing? Player X has scored X number of goals and every time Ive seen him he looks like he would fit in with how we want play etc etc

I dont understand why this is so unreasonable when it comes to Rashford. We can look at his stats and also look at the games he plays and arrive at our opinion as to what kind of season he has had. Personally for me from watching him I dont think he has had a very good season but that is mitigated somewhat by the number of goals he has scored and any forward scoring 20 goals in a season is not bad. That said 11 league goals isnt particularly prolific either.

This feels like a very attritional discussion whereby you have to be in one camp or the other (a bit like VAR) and I dont see why that needs to be the case.
This seems like a pretty rational opinion to me. Thread title is a bit hyperbolic and obviously going to rankle many fans. I think both sides have got points underneath the ladlefuls of passive aggression. You can't really ignore goals and assists - it's a key stat and no coincidence the most productive players in this regard are the most valuable players in world football. But you can't ignore all the other aspects of the game at the same time. I wonder what Mahrez' numbers would be like if every time he got the ball his sole focus was on scoring and assisting, to the point he would lose the ball many times because of taking on that risk. Over the season his individual numbers would likely be a lot higher, but would Man City be a better team? I would argue no.

This is the crux of it for me with Rashford. He is like a ship cannon that on a good day might blow up enemy ships that all the other cannons cant. However the cannon is temperamental and occasionally backfires into its' own ship. It falls on management both for club and country to manage the situation. For all his faults Mourinho did recognise that getting the best out of Rashford (and Martial) was having them compete for places. Rashford's place in the team has come too easily and I think the stats and his ability to do something amazing do bely the fact that he is often pretty costly to Utd and England during attacking phases, as his concentration on being directly involved in a goal often sees him choosing really low percentage options like beating 4/5 players or other trickery (which occasionally comes off and he looks world class, but often doesn't and results in the team busting a lung trying to get the ball back). He's got fantastic ability but if he's injured he should be rested and if he is losing the ball too much he should be benched and have a serious competitor for his place in whichever team.

Also an argument that the fact it's so divisive is what's 'toxic' rather than people being staunchly in one camp or another. Regardless of who's 'right' the fact it causes so much fireworks probably isn't positive for whichever team. The simplest solution would be Rashford is managed to become more team orientated. If ever there was a player needed a coach like Guardiola it's Rashford. I think he probably would become world class in that setup. As it is, this situation will likely to continue. On occasion he'll be an amazing match winner and on countless other occasions often the weak link in the possession chain. The fans on one side will point to his occasional great performances and stats and the fans on the other side will point out the flaws that make the team weaker. A lot of people will argue with each other and get upset and meanwhile we probably won't win anything.

I think it ties in to the cult of celebrity we have in this country with our football players and this is maybe what the 'cult' aspect is that the OP is getting at, bit of an antagonistic word choice mind. The public seem to need a big hotshot 'roy of the rovers' type player who is the star man and Rashford - because of his moments of brilliance - gets this status. We used to have it with Stevie Me, who was obviously pretty good, but so devastatingly poor in international tournaments due to this expectation on him to do something like an Olympiacos volley and win.a game in the dying minutes. This culture does get so boring after a while as anyone with half a brain can see that we need a team that is a well oiled, well drilled machine that is pre-prepared for every situation and that when component of that team 'isn't working' it gets replaced with one that is. That is why after this season, I think it would be criminal for Rashford to be started in England's XI when we have so many players who are on current form equally dangerous but have also proven themselves to be much more effective as components in a team.
 

Andersons Dietician

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This seems like a pretty rational opinion to me. Thread title is a bit hyperbolic and obviously going to rankle many fans. I think both sides have got points underneath the ladlefuls of passive aggression. You can't really ignore goals and assists - it's a key stat and no coincidence the most productive players in this regard are the most valuable players in world football. But you can't ignore all the other aspects of the game at the same time. I wonder what Mahrez' numbers would be like if every time he got the ball his sole focus was on scoring and assisting, to the point he would lose the ball many times because of taking on that risk. Over the season his individual numbers would likely be a lot higher, but would Man City be a better team? I would argue no.

This is the crux of it for me with Rashford. He is like a ship cannon that on a good day might blow up enemy ships that all the other cannons cant. However the cannon is temperamental and occasionally backfires into its' own ship. It falls on management both for club and country to manage the situation. For all his faults Mourinho did recognise that getting the best out of Rashford (and Martial) was having them compete for places. Rashford's place in the team has come too easily and I think the stats and his ability to do something amazing do bely the fact that he is often pretty costly to Utd and England during attacking phases, as his concentration on being directly involved in a goal often sees him choosing really low percentage options like beating 4/5 players or other trickery (which occasionally comes off and he looks world class, but often doesn't and results in the team busting a lung trying to get the ball back). He's got fantastic ability but if he's injured he should be rested and if he is losing the ball too much he should be benched and have a serious competitor for his place in whichever team.

Also an argument that the fact it's so divisive is what's 'toxic' rather than people being staunchly in one camp or another. Regardless of who's 'right' the fact it causes so much fireworks probably isn't positive for whichever team. The simplest solution would be Rashford is managed to become more team orientated. If ever there was a player needed a coach like Guardiola it's Rashford. I think he probably would become world class in that setup. As it is, this situation will likely to continue. On occasion he'll be an amazing match winner and on countless other occasions often the weak link in the possession chain. The fans on one side will point to his occasional great performances and stats and the fans on the other side will point out the flaws that make the team weaker. A lot of people will argue with each other and get upset and meanwhile we probably won't win anything.

I think it ties in to the cult of celebrity we have in this country with our football players and this is maybe what the 'cult' aspect is that the OP is getting at, bit of an antagonistic word choice mind. The public seem to need a big hotshot 'roy of the rovers' type player who is the star man and Rashford - because of his moments of brilliance - gets this status. We used to have it with Stevie Me, who was obviously pretty good, but so devastatingly poor in international tournaments due to this expectation on him to do something like an Olympiacos volley and win.a game in the dying minutes. This culture does get so boring after a while as anyone with half a brain can see that we need a team that is a well oiled, well drilled machine that is pre-prepared for every situation and that when component of that team 'isn't working' it gets replaced with one that is. That is why after this season, I think it would be criminal for Rashford to be started in England's XI when we have so many players who are on current form equally dangerous but have also proven themselves to be much more effective as components in a team.
Brilliant post. @9 Stone Elvis as well.
 

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We used to have it with Stevie Me, who was obviously pretty good, but so devastatingly poor in international tournaments due to this expectation on him to do something like an Olympiacos volley and win.a game in the dying minutes.
You really think his lack of achievement at the international level was due to high expectations on him, you actually believe that?

The quality wasn't there, with England. And yes that includes Gerrard. If you think England had quality in midfield, look at the midfields he was up against in Italy/Spain/France/Germany/Brazil etc. England basically had no chance. Even Scholes admitted that they didn't have a chance.
 
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