Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

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I doubt that. Any player we sign seems to be met with a faction of fans who seem to think we have paid too much or they aren't very good.

I really haven't seen too many serious posts saying Rashford is a bad player. I think people just want to see improvement. OK he scored 20 goals this season but he didn't have a prolific league campaign and as much as the "eye test" is derided in favour of statistics anyone who has watched him this season will know that his goals and assists figures could have been far far better with better final balls, more considered shooting and generally better judgement overall. If he was sitting on 20 LEAGUE goals plus the rest that would be a different matter.

I think the frustration comes from the fact that we can all see the ability he has and his flaws come down to the choices made on the pitch rather than not being actually good enough. The criticism comes from knowing he has the tools to be a great player. Its like what Merson said George Graham told him when he asked why he didn't give up on him when he was causing all the grief - "If you have a Morris minor and it breaks you *** it off, if you have a Rolls Royce you fix it", point being in this case the frustration levels with Rashford is because you can see the ability is there in spades you just want it channeled better as opposed to a player who is never going to be good enough.
I've seen plenty claim he'll never be good enough which is an absurd claim to make about any player with his talent at his age.
 

padzilla

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In the last year or so his game has changed, which I presume is due to instructions from the coaching staff, where he has developed a peculiar knack of slowing down when he approaches an opponent to the point he almost comes to a standstill and then tries an elaborate trick to get past his man, more often than not the opponent reads this easily and the attack is broken up.
It happened so often it was crazy as it struck me Rashford is a well conditioned athlete with enough speed and strength, as well as skill, to take the game to nearly any defender and put them on the back front instead of being cagey and cautious in possession.
 

9 Stone Elvis

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But why when he is 23?

Why the frustration?

What makes people think he won’t get better when he reaches his prime?

I mean one min people complain that we have no good coaches and our manager is a PE teacher - the next minute people want Rashford to be this near perfect superstar by himself.

Rashford under LVG was a very tactical player - now we have a manager who values freedom instead. I don’t see what this has to do with Rashford in particular.
When Rashford gets the ball and goes on his 10th dribble of the game into 3 defenders and he loses possession for the 9th time does that not frustrate you or do you just say "Oh well he's only 23 he will get better in time" as you watch the team scrabble to win possession back?

I fail to understand why the normal feelings when watching a game somehow dont apply to this boy. Yes, there are other players that are far worse and need replacing, yes Rashford has the potential to be excellent but in a thread about Marcus Rashford its not completely unreasonable to actually discuss his pros and cons without being accused of some of the things posters here have been accused of.

No one has said "near perfect superstar" and that what makes even talking about his flaws absolutely impossible because of you say "I think he needs to be better" its met with a response like that. "I think he could improve", "Oh so you think he should be Pele at 23 is that what you are saying???" absolute nonsense.

The people who on an idividual basis seemingly happy to give Rashford any amount of time to improve are the same people saying "4 years without a trophy we need to do better now" There is a fundamental contradiction there.
 

Bebestation

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When Rashford gets the ball and goes on his 10th dribble of the game into 3 defenders and he loses possession for the 9th time does that not frustrate you or do you just say "Oh well he's only 23 he will get better in time" as you watch the team scrabble to win possession back?

I fail to understand why the normal feelings when watching a game somehow dont apply to this boy. Yes, there are other players that are far worse and need replacing, yes Rashford has the potential to be excellent but in a thread about Marcus Rashford its not completely unreasonable to actually discuss his pros and cons without being accused of some of the things posters here have been accused of.

No one has said "near perfect superstar" and that what makes even talking about his flaws absolutely impossible because of you say "I think he needs to be better" its met with a response like that. "I think he could improve", "Oh so you think he should be Pele at 23 is that what you are saying???" absolute nonsense.

The people who on an idividual basis seemingly happy to give Rashford any amount of time to improve are the same people saying "4 years without a trophy we need to do better now" There is a fundamental contradiction there.
Because that doesn’t frustrate me at all because I am happy with his goal scoring ability for us.

what makes me happy is he is making numbers that are well enough for his age - better than a lot of players of the same age.

The same with Greenwood - no one seems to give a crap about his performance, the guy can barely dribble past a one vs one situation and is better as making a run behind the fullback instead - but it doesn’t frustrate me because his numbers and influence on the team is good enough for his age of 19-20.


I’m perfectly happy with Rashford and if he isn’t a starter in the team then so be it because he is a useful player for us even at his worst - playing off form to the ‘fans’ that refuse to believe in his injury or - playing with his injury and trying his best to the fans who do believe in his injury.

This is one of the main things that made me take my time on Rashford apart from him being a good 2 or 3 years away from his prime.

https://www.football365.com/news/robin-van-persie-warns-man-utd-marcus-rashford-back-injury

It’s rvp talking about how the back injury can be really bad at changing the way it effects your footballing style.

If you can’t see that Rashford has time on his hands to improve on his footballing quality then maybe you should see his back injury can heavily influence how they progress and it will need adapting on the players hand.

I support Rashford for this.

The guy absolutely shits on Pogba as a United 80 million player, Bruno Fernandes has been a bit off the second half of the season as well in terms of performances but numbers are still there - just like how I see Rashford.
 

Martialfc

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I have to say I really don't like him as a player. I think he epitomises this generation of player who relies on individual moments in games rather than being focused on the team. He often tries long distance dipping shots and rarely produces end product, his easy miss in the EL final speaks volumes of the basics he is lacking. He also has a tendency to run into players when dribbling, he has pace but wouldn't say he is a good dribbler. He doesn't make unselfish runs to create space for others, which is fundamental to how Utd have always played, i.e. running into channels, taking defenders away etc... I would take Grealish every day of the week. Fair play to him on his child poverty awareness though.
I agree 100%. Rashford just isn’t that good and people need to realise it. Give me a prime Chicarito over him any day. At least Hernandez made runs and knew were the goal was. Watching Rashford is sometimes painful.
 

Bebestation

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I agree 100%. Rashford just isn’t that good and people need to realise it. Give me a prime Chicarito over him any day. At least Hernandez made runs and knew were the goal was. Watching Rashford is sometimes painful.
:lol:

Chicarito is one of the shittest players we had and a player that benefited heavily on SAFs ability as a manager.

If you see Chicarito is better when playing for a better manager and Rashford is shit when being managed by a PE teacher then that’s says you have something to realize too.
 

Red00012

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The wheels are coming off for Rashford I think . I think he’ll be a regular starter next season if his form continues and we get Sancho and Pogba re signs.
A useful player to have on the bench
 

Roane

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That's unfair. He could have said mid season he wanted the operation then in order to ensure he was healthy for the Euros. However because he wants the best for United and we don't have options he played injured for half the season. He did us that favour and we should let acknowledge that by letting him play in the tournament without criticising him for getting fixed after.

We can't take the moral high ground here. The injury has been with him for a while and if we were responsible we would have got it sorted at the time.

I hate the stories you hear of players like john terry playing every game for seasons with pain injections. I can't believe the medical staff are allowed to get away with it frankly given the potential long term impact.


Did US a favour?
 

meamth

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But why when he is 23?

Why the frustration?

What makes people think he won’t get better when he reaches his prime?

I mean one min people complain that we have no good coaches and our manager is a PE teacher - the next minute people want Rashford to be this near perfect superstar by himself.

Rashford under LVG was a very tactical player - now we have a manager who values freedom instead. I don’t see what this has to do with Rashford in particular.
People won't shut up until we won something.

I remember fans whining during the hey days when United didn't win the title for 3 years from 2004-2006, it was mental.
 

Bebestation

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People won't shut up until we won something.

I remember fans whining during the hey days when United didn't win the title for 3 years from 2004-2006, it was mental.
Like I’m all okay if people make an analysis of our players - but these fans talking about there being a cult of him where he is overvalued?

If there is a better player that drops him to the bench then so be it, some people cry over Sanchos ability to do this - who to me is an overvalued player that I’m still happy to have.

It’s not Rashford’s fault that he starts every game when maybe he shouldn’t. People one minute are blaming the manager for this then blaming the player.

Rashford has scored winners against Spurs, PSG,Arsenal, city, chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester and even our CL games.

Like what is there to complain about? If there is a better LW one day then so be it - but right now there isn’t and he is the best we have at the age of 23.

I love Greenwood- but the boy is a pure finisher in my eyes and has average dribbling ability and some others problems right now - I believe he can improve and will improve when hitting his prime; yet so many people talk about him like he is perfect at the age of 20 and Rashford is shit.

Like how can fans not see how Shaw turned it around to being arguably one of the worlds best LB in some peoples eyes all within a year of having some competition and turning 25?

Rashford shits on Shaw’s performance year by year except this year - so for people to run over him is exceptionally weird.
 

meamth

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Like I’m all okay if people make an analysis of our players - but these fans talking about there being a cult of him where he is overvalued?

If there is a better player that drops him to the bench then so be it, some people cry over Sanchos ability to do this - who to me is an overvalued player that I’m still happy to have.

It’s not Rashford’s fault that he starts every game when maybe he shouldn’t. People one minute are blaming the manager for this then blaming the player.

Rashford has scored winners against Spurs, PSG,Arsenal, city, chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester and even our CL games.

Like what is there to complain about? If there is a better LW one day then so be it - but right now there isn’t and he is the best we have at the age of 23.

I love Greenwood- but the boy is a pure finisher in my eyes and has average dribbling ability and some others problems right now - I believe he can improve and will improve when hitting his prime; yet so many people talk about him like he is perfect at the age of 20 and Rashford is shit.

Like how can fans not see how Shaw turned it around to being arguably one of the worlds best LB in some peoples eyes all within a year of having some competition and turning 25?

Rashford shits on Shaw’s performance year by year except this year - so for people to run over him is exceptionally weird.
Not many people have patience or want to support our players when they are playing shit.

There are some like you and me, who believe in player's growth. I stood by Shaw, I stood by Fred, McT, before that it was Carrick (he was scrutinized as nothing player back then, 16 mil gone to waste, sideway passer) Fletcher, Park, list goes on.

That's the fact, until we won something these players will always have negative army and getting the abuse.

In their eyes, McFred is championship level no matter what they achieved this season.
Rashford is overrated.
AWB is donkey.
List goes on..

My advice? Just support them and stop arguing with the nay-sayers.
 

Bebestation

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Not many people have patience or want to support our players when they are playing shit.

There are some like you and me, who believe in player's growth. I stood by Shaw, I stood by Fred, McT, before that it was Carrick (he was scrutinized as nothing player back then, 16 mil gone to waste, sideway passer) Fletcher, Park, list goes on.

That's the fact, until we won something these players will always have negative army and getting the abuse.

In their eyes, McFred is championship level no matter what they achieved this season.
Rashford is overrated.
AWB is donkey.
List goes on..

My advice? Just support them and stop arguing with the nay-sayers.
I’ve said it too many times - but our fan base is the worst aspect of our whole club IMO.

I prefer our rivals ability to stick by their players even if it ends up looking a bit delusional.

Always players who play for other clubs look better to our fans even if the results were worse off.
 

9 Stone Elvis

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Not many people have patience or want to support our players when they are playing shit.

There are some like you and me, who believe in player's growth. I stood by Shaw, I stood by Fred, McT, before that it was Carrick (he was scrutinized as nothing player back then, 16 mil gone to waste, sideway passer) Fletcher, Park, list goes on.

That's the fact, until we won something these players will always have negative army and getting the abuse.

In their eyes, McFred is championship level no matter what they achieved this season.
Rashford is overrated.
AWB is donkey.
List goes on..

My advice? Just support them and stop arguing with the nay-sayers.
Simply not true in most cases.

Fans want the club to be successful, thats not unusual. In order to be successful the team has to be as strong as possible and identifying the areas that need strengthening is normal. By your logic there is no need to sign any players we just wait until the ones we have come good. Thats clearly not going to be a successful strategy.

Overexageration does your points no favours.

Fred and McTominay are not "Championship Level" but to suggest they aren't elite level isnt unreasonable. To say "if we want to win the PL again we need a better quality midfielder" isnt unreasonable.

If you stood by Shaw thats lovely but Shaw turned in some truly horrendous performances over the years and I would suggest his turn around is the exception rather than the rule and the reason it is being illustrated constantly is because its so unusual. Hell, we spent £20m on his replacement so obviously no-one else at the club saw it coming either.

The players should always get the support of the fans when they are playing but blind loyalty doesn't do them or the club any favours. In the cold light of day there is nothing wrong with discussing whether a player is good enough or not.
 

big rons sovereign

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I agree 100%. Rashford just isn’t that good and people need to realise it. Give me a prime Chicarito over him any day. At least Hernandez made runs and knew were the goal was. Watching Rashford is sometimes painful.
This better be a wum.
 

Fingeredmouse

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I agree 100%. Rashford just isn’t that good and people need to realise it. Give me a prime Chicarito over him any day. At least Hernandez made runs and knew were the goal was. Watching Rashford is sometimes painful.
You would replace Marcus Rashford with Javier Hernandez? On the fecking left wing?
 

welshwingwizard

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Did US a favour?
What would you call it. He got an injury playing for us and continued playing for us injured and in pain because we needed him.

It would have been better for him, both in the short term (given the pain and impact on performance) and long term (his playing when injured could curtail his career or leave him with long term pain), to have had the operation immediately. He chose not to because he wanted to do what is best for the team.
 

Roane

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What would you call it. He got an injury playing for us and continued playing for us injured and in pain because we needed him.

It would have been better for him, both in the short term (given the pain and impact on performance) and long term (his playing when injured could curtail his career or leave him with long term pain), to have had the operation immediately. He chose not to because he wanted to do what is best for the team.
I call it getting paid to do his job moreso than doing us a favour.

If his injury is as bad as some seem to think then letting him go to the Euros is the favour
 

welshwingwizard

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I call it getting paid to do his job moreso than doing us a favour.

If his injury is as bad as some seem to think then letting him go to the Euros is the favour
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

If I was poorly at work and needed time off to get better then I would expect to take it at the time.

If because of a big project my manager asked me to work through then I'd try and likely not do as good a job (like rashford). But it would definitely be a favour to my boss and the organisation.

And to he honest a good and ethical organisation would have told me to stay off until I get better

I wouldn't expect to be criticized for not doing as good a job or for it to be held against me at review time. And I definitely wouldn't expect to be criticized if I had a personal goal that I wanted to achieve and chose to take the same approach, even if I knew I may need a bit of time off work later.
 

Roane

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We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

If I was poorly at work and needed time off to get better then I would expect to take it at the time.

If because of a big project my manager asked me to work through then I'd try and likely not do as good a job (like rashford). But it would definitely be a favour to my boss and the organisation.

And to he honest a good and ethical organisation would have told me to stay off until I get better

I wouldn't expect to be criticized for not doing as good a job or for it to be held against me at review time. And I definitely wouldn't expect to be criticized if I had a personal goal that I wanted to achieve and chose to take the same approach, even if I knew I may need a bit of time off work later.
Yeah ok that's the same thing :)
 

9 Stone Elvis

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We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

If I was poorly at work and needed time off to get better then I would expect to take it at the time.

If because of a big project my manager asked me to work through then I'd try and likely not do as good a job (like rashford). But it would definitely be a favour to my boss and the organisation.

And to he honest a good and ethical organisation would have told me to stay off until I get better

I wouldn't expect to be criticized for not doing as good a job or for it to be held against me at review time. And I definitely wouldn't expect to be criticized if I had a personal goal that I wanted to achieve and chose to take the same approach, even if I knew I may need a bit of time off work later.
Equating a "normal" job to playing professional football rarely makes for a good analogy.
 

stw2022

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He’s not that much younger than many of our big signings over the years.

Pogba 23
RvN - 25
Rio 23
Bruno 25
Lukaku 24

With the exception of Rio I’m not sure we signed any of those without the expectation of immediate impact. Yes they were young, but there was an expectancy I simply don’t see with Rashford.

Given his experience and age I think it’s telling how little we’re allowed to expect from him in terms of performances. All of those and more besides were far more established and rounded players than Rashford despite him being in a similar age bracket and in some cases much more experience
 

Doracle

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I thought he was supposed to have had a bad match? Looked like he was really dangerous despite being double marked most of the match. Villarreal defended really well against him though.
 

stw2022

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Games played at time we signed them (ex internationals)

Bruno 290

Rio 242

Rvn 261

Veron 212

Pogba 185

Mata 309

Maguire 317

Yorke 287

Stam-164





Rashford -271 (currently)



Absolutely nobody in the near quarter of a century those players were signed ever suggested someone was a spoiled glory hunter for imposing expectations on those players the first day they arrived. So many, if they’re honest with themselves, still treat Rashford like he’s some developing teenager learning the ropes and hide behind his age isn’t that far off many of the above when they signed and his actual experience significantly ahead of many
 

Doracle

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you don’t think that was a bad game?
Involved in the goal, great link up with Shaw throughout, some really dangerous runs. Didn’t have the end product we’d often see from him but definitely not the 1/10 performance I’d have imagined from reading the comments.
 

stw2022

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Involved in the goal, great link up with Shaw throughout, some really dangerous runs. Didn’t have the end product we’d often see from him but definitely not the 1/10 performance I’d have imagined from reading the comments.
You didn’t watch the game yourself?
 

Ali Dia

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Involved in the goal, great link up with Shaw throughout, some really dangerous runs. Didn’t have the end product we’d often see from him but definitely not the 1/10 performance I’d have imagined from reading the comments.
I see passing backwards, losing the ball, over dribbling, attempting to shoot all the time (his assist was another very poor shot) walking around, misses an open goal. If Lukaku or Martial had performed like that they’d have been slaughtered.
 

roonster09

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He’s not that much younger than many of our big signings over the years.

Pogba 23
RvN - 25
Rio 23
Bruno 25
Lukaku 24

With the exception of Rio I’m not sure we signed any of those without the expectation of immediate impact. Yes they were young, but there was an expectancy I simply don’t see with Rashford.

Given his experience and age I think it’s telling how little we’re allowed to expect from him in terms of performances. All of those and more besides were far more established and rounded players than Rashford despite him being in a similar age bracket and in some cases much more experience
Games played at time we signed them (ex internationals)

Bruno 290

Rio 242

Rvn 261

Veron 212

Pogba 185

Mata 309

Maguire 317

Yorke 287

Stam-164





Rashford -271 (currently)



Absolutely nobody in the near quarter of a century those players were signed ever suggested someone was a spoiled glory hunter for imposing expectations on those players the first day they arrived. So many, if they’re honest with themselves, still treat Rashford like he’s some developing teenager learning the ropes and hide behind his age isn’t that far off many of the above when they signed and his actual experience significantly ahead of many
:lol:
 

Ali Dia

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I was saying in another thread that martial is 4 goals and 6 assists in the league in 1500 mins. Rashford is 11 goals 11 assists in over 3000 minutes. It’s a similar output but the fans seem to get on martials back far more quickly than Rashford. Martial has had his worst season here by far and he’s still about as productive as Rashford per minute yet for some Rashford is immune from any criticism and Martial should be sold. They both offer the same low work rate and frustrating off the ball movement. Similar wages etc. For my money Martial was a lot better than Rashford last season. It’s strange enough.
 

stw2022

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I was saying in another thread that martial is 4 goals and 6 assists in the league in 1500 mins. Rashford is 11 goals 11 assists in over 3000 minutes. It’s a similar output but the fans seem to get on martials back far more quickly than Rashford. Martial has had his worst season here by far and he’s still about as productive as Rashford per minute yet for some Rashford is immune from any criticism and Martial should be sold. They both offer the same low work rate and frustrating off the ball movement. Similar wages etc. For my money Martial was a lot better than Rashford last season. It’s strange enough.
Honestly think a lot of fans agree but voicing such an opinion isn’t worth the grief
 

Sayros

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I was saying in another thread that martial is 4 goals and 6 assists in the league in 1500 mins. Rashford is 11 goals 11 assists in over 3000 minutes. It’s a similar output but the fans seem to get on martials back far more quickly than Rashford. Martial has had his worst season here by far and he’s still about as productive as Rashford per minute yet for some Rashford is immune from any criticism and Martial should be sold. They both offer the same low work rate and frustrating off the ball movement. Similar wages etc. For my money Martial was a lot better than Rashford last season. It’s strange enough.
Agreed, but Martial's biggest problem is his unavailability, his inconsistency where he can't follow up a good season without having a poor one next, and above all, he is not an academy player and cost a record fee at the time to be brought here. He also hasn't improved much in his 5-6 years.

Rashford is English and a local lad, they're never going to be treated the same, fair or not.
 

Ali Dia

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Agreed, but Martial's biggest problem is his unavailability, his inconsistency where he can't follow up a good season without having a poor one next, and above all, he is not an academy player and cost a record fee at the time to be brought here. He also hasn't improved much in his 5-6 years.

Rashford is English and a local lad, they're never going to be treated the same, fair or not.
If Martial is a problem that needs to be resolved then I think Rashfords similar output should also be a legitimate part of the conversation about where we can improve, hopefully without getting laughed at!
 

big rons sovereign

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So, since we're not playing any games for a while, we've taken to shitting on players instead of Ole?
 
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welshwingwizard

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Equating a "normal" job to playing professional football rarely makes for a good analogy.
Ordinarily that is true but it doesn't matter what profession you are in, at the end of the day your health is your health, your employer has a duty or care to you and a doctor has a similar duty to do no harm.

I'm not too fussed what other people believe as we are on a football forum with the capacity to have differing views and opinions.

However, in my opinion where footballers are encouraged to delay medical treatment and have pain killing injections instead then I believe they are failing their duty of care. And worse, if it leads to long term issues (as we know it can do as ex pros have spoken out about long term damage and pain issues) then the medical profession is failing in its duty.

However that isn't a surprise considering their complicity in doping and ignoring long term impacts or repetitive head injuries.

That's why I said Rashford had done us a favour. Because regardless of profession, even if I were a footballer, I would have had the operation to sort the issue straight away.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I was saying in another thread that martial is 4 goals and 6 assists in the league in 1500 mins. Rashford is 11 goals 11 assists in over 3000 minutes. It’s a similar output but the fans seem to get on martials back far more quickly than Rashford. Martial has had his worst season here by far and he’s still about as productive as Rashford per minute yet for some Rashford is immune from any criticism and Martial should be sold. They both offer the same low work rate and frustrating off the ball movement. Similar wages etc. For my money Martial was a lot better than Rashford last season. It’s strange enough.
Martial is a striker though and Rashford is a winger. So that output is more acceptable for Rashford than Martial
 

Sayros

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Paris Saint-Germain
If Martial is a problem that needs to be resolved then I think Rashfords similar output should also be a legitimate part of the conversation about where we can improve, hopefully without getting laughed at!
But Rashford still has at least shown enough consistency to have back to back 30+ G/A seasons for the club. Martial can't follow up any good season with another of a similar output, regardless whether it's form or injuries, it's bound to frustrate fans. Personally, I do think Martial is more talented than Rashford, and is a better player when both are on form, but it's kind of a moot point if he doesn't show it nearly enough. His first season was fantastic, he followed it up with a piss-poor season, then hot and cold during the Mourinho reign, when it feels he's about to put things together, Alexis Sanchez comes and moves him from the left wing, then he re-emerges during Mourinho's last couple of months in charge, then nothing, and then last season followed by a near non-existent one this season. It's simply not good enough for the salary he's paid, and I don't see how United even get rid of him if they wanted, because who will pick up his contract in his current form? I hear Madrid is interested and I say BS, because Martial won't take a pay cut and Madrid would be dumb to match it to get him to come.

Martial is a striker though and Rashford is a winger. So that output is more acceptable for Rashford than Martial
Rashford is a forward, not a winger. Doesn't play like a winger.