Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

[el3mel]

I have nothing against Rashford. On his day he's quality. In my opinion it's Ole's management of him that has been crap. Treating him as completely undroppable player, never benching or subbing him off regardless of form or fitness was a terrible way of management and was always going to lead to this.

Ole is a big reason for me for why Rashford has regressed so much by the end of the season. He should have been treated like the rest of the team. He's good and fit, he plays. He's poor and not fit, he's benched. Not the way we have managed him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

...but I’d guess Rashford had scored the majority of his goals from wide positions whereas Welbeck basically never scored when played out wide (admittedly the two had very different roles).

That is correct.

As a wide player for United, Welbeck was a decent "tactical fit" at best: he was very limited in terms of end product (hardly scored/assisted at all).

It's obvious to anyone who witnessed him play at the time that Welbeck would be vastly inferior to Rashford as a wide option in this current United team.

 

[hubbuh]

If we want to win the league Rashford isn’t good enough. Rooney, RVP, Ruud, Saha, Hernandez, Tevez give me and of them over Rashford. Rashford is basically a slightly better Danny Welbeck. We need a Harry Kane to go to the next level Rashford can not take us their alone he just isn’t good enough.

Oh sod off with these ridiculous takes. Leicester won the league with Marc Albrighton and Okazaki ffs. Rashford is a very good sometimes great player that is absolutely good enough to play in a title winning team. No one player can win anything alone, see Messi at Barcelona in recent years. It's a fecking team game!!

 

[hubbuh]

I have nothing against Rashford. On his day he's quality. In my opinion it's Ole's management of him that has been crap. Treating him as completely undroppable player, never benching or subbing him off regardless of form or fitness was a terrible way of management and was always going to lead to this.

Ole is a big reason for me for why Rashford has regressed so much by the end of the season. He should have been treated like the rest of the team. He's good and fit, he plays. He's poor and not fit, he's benched. Not the way we have managed him.

I agree with this. We've sort of failed Rashford by not properly managing his development and instead forcing him to play as much as possible. It's been detrimental to him and the team.

 

[The Siege]

I don't like this term.

We always thought the ceiling is much higher, we did with "martial, Ravel morisson, etc" there's no such thing as "Higher ceiling". It's not something you can see beyond biased preference.

Martial was dubbed as a Henry potential, look at his potential they say, what he can do at 20 doesn't mean it'll go exponentially better till 24. Some player regress.

The only player I've seen actually making that linear improvement is Cristiano Ronaldo. What he is when he's 20 and 24 is literally a different beast.

When he's shown us his best - and it hasn't been a one off - Rashford is incredible. His pace, dribbling and finishing are all exceptional, we've seen glimpses of it this season too. There are a lot of factors that go into running the show consistently, and those factors have not worked out in his favour, the things that require his focus or needs others to make decisions. He's also been a part of a massive coaching merry-go-round that has led to United's two favourite game shows - 'What is this player's best position?' and 'Is he really a striker?'.

He's physically and ability-wise there, tbh. Whether he'll mentally catch up to be consistent and whether this club will give him the support or tough love that he needs to grow, is something else altogether.

 

[The Siege]

The American Owners love a great image and Marcus is doing it all for them. He is proving valuable to their plans and that will impact what decisions the club makes about him. You can count on that.

I don't think his good PR translates to good PR for them. Sure didn't cut them any slack over the last couple of months. They might get some flak if they actually sell him someday, but bring another talented star in place, get Ole to say 'that's just how football is, you know?' in a press conference and it'll all be forgotten.

 

[acnumber9]

You'd expect RAWK to treat Rashford better at this rate.

Yep. If we’re using this place as a barometer then Rashford has gone way past underrated.

 

[MU655]

He has a combined total of 43 goals and 27 assists over these last two seasons. So, a 70 direct goal contribution in 101 games is very good and shows one reason why people rate him.

Does he have room for improvement? Yes, but he is still only 23. He has not been in great form towards the end of the season, and that needs to be corrected.

You don't those figures without being a very good player. The fact that he keeps scoring despite not playing well is testament to how good he actually is.

If he is carrying an injury, then he needs to be rested. I think a major is issue is that we over rely on him.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

The American Owners love a great image and Marcus is doing it all for them. He is proving valuable to their plans and that will impact what decisions the club makes about him. You can count on that.

Yes Rashford does all this great charity work for the fecking Glazers. Have a word with yourself.

 

[hobbers]

Werner isn't a starter for Chelsea? Good job, highlights the footballing knowledge which I was arguing against.

Not on the left wing he isn't. Obviously Rashford wouldn't start as a number 9 for any of our rivals so I'm not comparing him in that position.

 

[hobbers]

Rashford is irrelevant

Your own words again.

 

[stw2022]

Anyone who has a different opinion than I do about how good a player is can surely be identified as moron, toxic and, according to an previous page, a Tory

Thank God these bastions of grown up debate are here to save us from ourselves

 

[pacifictheme]

Why am I comparing wingers to Stirkers? We used to play 442 now we play 443. Rashford plays the same position as Salah but on the left. That’s why I’m comparing “Wingers to Strikers” the game has changed we no longer whip balls in. I for one would love to go back to 442 but it’s not going to happen. Rashford is overhyped like many others in our team there’s a reason we haven’t won the league since 2013. Until we stop accepting mediocre players we will never progress. Sell Rashford and sign Haaland it’s really that simple.

You are making no sense pal. You compare wide players to wide players. Compare him to modern wide players if you want, but comparing him to ruud is moronic at best.

Anyway shouldn't it be sell martial sign haaland since they both play as a number 9, whereas Rashford plays as a wide forward (where he scored the third most goals this season, behind salah and son).

 

[Ali Dia]

I think slightly better than Welbeck is a fair description, it just relies on remembering that before he was a meme with exploding knees Danny Welbeck was a good player. I’m pretty sure if you don’t count penalties the two have very similar PL scoring records for us.



22 goals in 60 odd starts for a wide forward is fine. He’s fine, that’s the point. He’s Nani, not Ronaldo.

But Nani was made work a lot harder off the ball. He was also pretty far from the focal point in our attack.

 

[stw2022]

But Nani worked a lot harder off the ball.

Quick guys, get him

And yeah he did

 

[BoltonWanderer]

If you watched him as a 19 year old and then knew this is what he'd be like as a 23 year old, I don't think you could be anything but disappointed with that lack of progress. His status off the pitch makes it hard to drop him but objectively, I think there's more reason to be worried about Rashford at LW than there is about Greenwood at RW. To me, Greenwood is the more likely to be an elite level player over the next decade and it's Rashford's position which should be up for question, with Sancho, Grealish etc. possibly taking up his spot.

I like Rashford too but the thought from a couple of years ago that he was a staple, first name on the teamsheet for England and United for the next decade needs to be revised. He just isn't good enough. I expect him (And Sterling) to start every game for England in the Euros, which will be a damning indictment of Southgate as a manager.

 

[stw2022]

If you watched him as a 19 year old and then knew this is what he'd be like as a 23 year old, I don't think you could be anything but disappointed with that lack of progress. His status off the pitch makes it hard to drop him but objectively, I think there's more reason to be worried about Rashford at LW than there is about Greenwood at RW. To me, Greenwood is the more likely to be an elite level player over the next decade and it's Rashford's position which should be up for question, with Sancho, Grealish etc. possibly taking up his spot.

I like Rashford too but the thought from a couple of years ago that he was a staple, first name on the teamsheet for England and United for the next decade needs to be revised. He just isn't good enough. I expect him (And Sterling) to start every game for England in the Euros, which will be a damning indictment of Southgate as a manager.

That’s the crux of it for me. Totally agree.... you toxic prick, or something.

It’s a small thing but the reactions he gets from senior team mates like Cavani and Fernandes when they get frustrated with his wastefulness is telling too

 

[Ixion]

I think slightly better than Welbeck is a fair description, it just relies on remembering that before he was a meme with exploding knees Danny Welbeck was a good player. I’m pretty sure if you don’t count penalties the two have very similar PL scoring records for us.

Come on now this is just silly. Rashford already has more career goals than Wellbeck who is 7 years his senior and it's not down to penalties.

 

[stw2022]

Come on now this is just silly. Rashford already has more career goals than Wellbeck and it's not down to penalties.

Peak Rashford is better than peak Wellbeck. Balls to the wall and I needed to send out players I could trust to play to a minimum standard Im picking Wellbeck, sorry

 

[rumac]

He's 23, has good stats and on occasion looks absolutely brilliant. It's clear he's lacking in consistency...because he is 23.

 

[stw2022]

He's 23, has good stats and on occasion looks absolutely brilliant. It's clear he's lacking in consistency...because he is 23.

Yeah but as said he has more experience at his age than many of the class of 92
Even if you don’t want to compare them as players he has nowhere near the same competence on the ball at their age.

He’s got 271 first team appearances and rarely do his performances reflect that in my moronic opinion

 

[Rolaholic]

The 'cult' of Rashford really??

Deary me

Him being bogged down with serious and potentially long term injuries has nothing to do with all his charitable efforts off the pitch and using them as a stick to beat on him as a player is a bit simplistic and low brow

 

[Ali Dia]

Last 2 seasons in PL, from open play he has 38 goals + assists in PL.

Only 6 players has more goals and assists in last 2 seasons in PL, Kane, KdB, Salah, Son, Mane, Vardy. None of them are close to Rashford when it comes to age.

Kane - 51 goals + Assists
KdB - 47
Salah - 47
Son - 47
Mane - 43
Rashford - 38

He’s still at the bottom of that list while regularly competing deep into the Europa league vs players doing it in the CL or more regularly in the PL. I always see these stats and think it’s strange to bring them up to some show he’s a top player but he’s misunderstood. They show that he’s clearly in the level below and with the lowest work rate out of any player listed by some distance. Yes he’s the youngest player on the list but if this is him close to peaking we are in trouble if we continue to be so reliant on him.

Also Spurs x 2
Liverpool x 2

Do you think this unfit looking Rashford is going to help get any of his team mates onto a list like this? These days any chance a team mate has dies when Rashford gets on the ball

 

[bosnian_red]

Think his peak is a Mane peak level player. He's a very good winger but not top 5 in the world. He has the ability to reach the very top tier but I'm not sure he will without a system like Peps where he can be isolated 1v1 regularly and Pep could teach that composure and that last 5% of movement and decision making.

But as it is, he's still an excellent player and will be a long term starter on the left for us, is ridiculously productive, but we need depth so we can keep him fresh. He tends to step up in big games and has a great record in them, and generally with more creativity on the other side I think he'll do better himself as we won't be so reliant on left sided build up.

Off the pitch, he's an example to all pros and clearly a great person, he's a boyhood fan who lives and breathes Man United who came through the ranks, and he obviously wants to be an activist for things he can have a positive impact for. He is literally the dream package from a home grown star player IMO. He doesn't need to be a Ballon d'Or contender, he just has to be worth his spot, which with his productivity (one of the top players from wide players in Europe over the past 2 seasons), he definitely is.

 

[Sayros]

He is far more popular than his actual ability deserves, but that's because of the great moves he's done off the field. He's twice as good as the doubters think but half as good as his fans think he is. He's a star player, and his numbers show that despite his difficulties and whatever lying health issues he has, but I don't think he has the superstar talent in him though. Is he a starter for England? If he is, I don't think it will be for long, because there's just superior talents in Foden, Grealish, and Sancho and he's not really shown enough to be trusted up front.

What I disagree with is those thinking he's reached his ceiling because he has something like 300 professional games. You can always add more to your game, and he's shown consistency in the past two seasons as far as the numbers go. That's not easy and demands some appreciation. I look at a guy like Mbappe, not to compare the two (because that's already been done here), but very similar in just how many games they've played already for such a young age, and I see improvements in Mbappe when people were saying he was already at his ceiling at feckin' 18 years old playing for Monaco. I think Rashford's maybe hit a road bump due to health or whatever it is, but I expect him to continue to improve and add more consistency to his game with some wrinkles along the way. The problem he's going to have is that there are other England internationals that are improving just as well if not quicker due to being more talented. I think he will always have a starting spot at United (at least while Ole is there), but for England it's possible he is going to struggle soon to get on the field.

 

[Bwuk]

I think Rashford can become a top top player, but he's been playing injured for a while, and I worry that our over use of him will harm him long term.

I'll go against the grain and suggest we actually need a LW.

Rashford will most likely have surgery after the euros, and we should look to ease him back. We have Mason & Amad for the RW.

 

[KM]

He’s still at the bottom of that list while regularly competing deep into the Europa league vs players doing it in the CL or more regularly in the PL. I always see these stats and think it’s strange to bring them up to some show he’s a top player but he’s misunderstood. They show that he’s clearly in the level below and with the lowest work rate out of any player listed by some distance. Yes he’s the youngest player on the list but if this is him close to peaking we are in trouble if we continue to be so reliant on him.

Also Spurs x 2
Liverpool x 2

Do you think this unfit looking Rashford is going to help get any of his team mates onto a list like this? These days any chance dies when Rashford gets on the ball

These are all PL stats only so I'm not sure what relevance does Europa and UCL has in here, but good job genius.

 

[Ixion]

Peak Rashford is better than peak Wellbeck. Balls to the wall and I needed to send out players I could trust to play to a minimum standard Im picking Wellbeck, sorry

Even if you take away penalties Rashford has more club career goals than Wellbeck despite being 7 years his junior. There is literally no argument who is the better player.

 

[Mike Phelan's Former Tash]

He's an explosive player. You either get 9 or 10 from him each week or 4 or 5, there's no in-between.

 

[Ali Dia]

These are all PL stats only so I'm not sure what relevance does Europa and UCL has in here, but good job genius.

here we go again. @KM

Grand. He’s still bottom of the list by some distance. No team mates playing well with him either, trying to play around him at this stage more like. How many times has he been man of the match in the past 2 seasons? Id love to see the number of times Rashford loses the ball in a dangerous area and kills teammates chances vs his conversion. I’m sure he’d be top of that particular list. At least he’s getting into the right areas or something…

Genius alright. The stats are telling you he’s not even top 5 for g/a, they had to make a top 6 to fit him in, bottom of the list for work rate and top of the list for wastefulness and you’re snarling at people for pointing that out.

 

[Shark]

He's an explosive player. You either get 9 or 10 from him each week or 4 or 5, there's no in-between.

When did we last even have that 9 or 10?

 

[Rado_N]

I can’t decide what’s more ridiculous, the talk of choosing Welbeck over Rashford or the fact that even now people can’t spell Welbeck correctly.

 

[rumac]

Yeah but as said he has more experience at his age than many of the class of 92
Even if you don’t want to compare them as players he has nowhere near the same competence on the ball at their age.

He’s got 271 first team appearances and rarely do his performances reflect that in my moronic opinion

Maturity isn't just about number of games played, physical and mental maturity are sometimes just about age.

Your point about the class of 92 is a good one but there are a few important differences.

1. They came into a team that had been successful and had a culture of winning things
2. They had Cantona, Keane, Steve Bruce and the like around them.
3. They had the one manager their entire careers, probably the greatest manager of all time.

I've been on this site for 15 years and I remember the same criticisms being aimed at Giggs, Scholes and Darren Fletcher to name a few. We have a tendency to view the past a little bit rosier than it was.

 

[BusbyMalone]

I love Marcus, but watching him this season there does seem to be a huge discrepancy between his statistics and his actual performances. Overall, just using the eye test, I don't think he's been particularly great this season but you can't argue with his numbers. He does have this maddening ability to run headlong into an opposition player as if he never saw him, and that seemed to have been amplified this season. He's obviously had some great games, of course, but if you looked purely at his numbers you would think he'd just had one of the best seasons of his career. But it really doesn't feel like that.

It also doesn't help that the guy always appears to be carrying an injury. I just never feel like he's 100% fit in any game he plays in. I still love the guy though and considering his age I have all the faith in the world that he will improve.

 

[siw2007]

Considering he has scored 21 goals and got 15 assists this year, he is a very important player to us. He has played many games over the past year and he has looked for months physically and mentally shot. In an ideal world, we could get him the surgery he needs and send him on a long holiday to come back refreshed, sadly we can’t do that because of the Euros.

I don’t consider him so good that he must play if declared fit, like Bruno for example, but should be part of a crop attacking players we can rotate in and out of the team depending on who we are playing and who’s fit. We haven’t done that because of poor squad options.

Preferably, we recruit well in the summer, maybe buy a Sancho perhaps and Rashford stays away from the team for a prolonged rest. Then we can ease him back into the squad.

 

[pacifictheme]

He’s still at the bottom of that list while regularly competing deep into the Europa league vs players doing it in the CL or more regularly in the PL. I always see these stats and think it’s strange to bring them up to some show he’s a top player but he’s misunderstood. They show that he’s clearly in the level below and with the lowest work rate out of any player listed by some distance. Yes he’s the youngest player on the list but if this is him close to peaking we are in trouble if we continue to be so reliant on him.

Also Spurs x 2
Liverpool x 2

Do you think this unfit looking Rashford is going to help get any of his team mates onto a list like this? These days any chance a team mate has dies when Rashford gets on the ball

And that's the issue isn't it? This reliance. Rashford numbers are really good, the issue is our top scorer isn't our striker, or right winger, it's a central midfielder. Rashfords stats are really good and whilst he might never be world class he is plenty goodef nough if we have decent players in other positions which we don't.

The issue is he's been the guy we've had to look towards because Greenwood only showd up at the end of the season, Martial was shite and then injured and cavani was out and getting used to the league.

No one is whinging abiut Rashford contributing 37 goals if our other forward players are involved consistently across a season. We'd also be able to rest him and let him recover from injuries. Who knows we might even see him play well!

 

[Chabon]

But Nani was made work a lot harder off the ball. He was also pretty far from the focal point in our attack.

I’m not at all Rashford’s workrate versus Nani’s is about the players themselves. It’s tactical, ie, not up to them.

Come on now this is just silly. Rashford already has more career goals than Wellbeck who is 7 years his senior and it's not down to penalties.

Welbeck has played a mere 1,000 more premier league minutes than Rashford, despite their age difference. It’s impossible to downplay just how little football he’s played since he was Rashford’s age.

I was also specifically comparing their careers at United. Rashford is now pretty much the exact age Welbeck was when we sold him, and has started nearly three times as many games for us as Welbeck managed. If he’d been given as many opportunities as Rashford they’d have very similar numbers.

I think what’s causing the confusion here is that unlike those who judge players by memes, I don’t think being ‘a bit better than Welbeck’ is any kind of insult.

 

[Ali Dia]

And that's the issue isn't it? This reliance. Rashford numbers are really good, the issue is our top scorer isn't our striker, or right winger, it's a central midfielder. Rashfords stats are really good and whilst he might never be world class he is plenty goodef nough if we have decent players in other positions which we don't.

The issue is he's been the guy we've had to look towards because Greenwood only showd up at the end of the season, Martial was shite and then injured and cavani was out and getting used to the league.

No one is whinging abiut Rashford contributing 37 goals if our other forward players are involved consistently across a season. We'd also be able to rest him and let him recover from injuries. Who knows we might even see him play well!

You only have to look at Rashford since Cavani has come into the team. By your logic he should have come alive around him sharing the workload and playing great stuff off him but that hasn't transpired. He’s been the out and out attacker for us against a lot of teams we should be smashing but we typically make hard enough work of it. His numbers are respectable for someone with no defensive duties at a top club. Nothing that should make him the undroppable fulcrum of our attack going forward.

I agree if he was getting these numbers at another club we would definitely be looking at him but you would be having major doubts about splashing out the kind of money he’d cost if you watched him regularly like we do. if they were at different clubs and the choice was between sancho or Rashford I would pick Sancho as he’s already more complete and he works harder.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He's a quality player who's really underappreciated by a-lot of our fanbase.

 

[RedChisel]

So supporting a home grown player who loves the club and actually happens to be quite good amounts to a cult? Some truly weird posters on this forum.