Have United had a better recent history than Arsenal?

This can all be summed up in a simple fan exchange.

Arsenal fan: You're shit
United fan: But we've won trophies, you haven't

Rather than using Arsenal as the example because that will lead to some bias. A better question is would fans prefer the Ole era or the ETH/Amorim era. We won nothing under Ole but generally performed well in the league and cups, we just didn't win anything. In the last 2.5 years we've been absolutely horrendous in the league but could possibly end up with 3 trophies in 3 years.
 
JediSith said:
I was gonna reply United also won a prem title in Wenger’s final few years. Then checked and realised he retired in 2020, only 5 seasons ago.

Really in my mind it seemed he retired earlier.

I suppose Wenger didn’t leave Arsenal in the best place, unlike SAF. So there’s not been any deterioration since he left and we can say an improvement since Arteta took over.

Obviously SAF left as league winners, but be squad was pretty bad. Choice of replacement manager was awful, and worse we squandered almost a billion on nothing. (Until our last summer window and recent winter signings )
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More I think about it more Arteta is going to be Arsenal's OGS.

Popular former player who majority wish well and want to succeed but they probably won't quite ever take the final step under him. In 20/21 Man. United finished 2nd and were Europa league runners up so that was a pretty good season for Man. United as you were good in two competitions compared to completely writing off the league but didn't win anything and then it fell apart the next year.

It's a big summer for Arsenal. Already spending another 50m on a central midfielder, the lax thinking on CF will cost Arteta his job in 12 months.
 
ETH was considered more succesful than Ole, WHY? Because he wins 2 trophies eventhough he's never finished above Ole in the league and his football was car-crashed compare to Ole's.
History wont remember who finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, it only remember who wins the trophy, the champions, the winners. Seriously, i doubt people could remember who finished 2nd the times when we won the league throughout the 90s.
 
El Jefe said:
This can all be summed up in a simple fan exchange.

Arsenal fan: You're shit
United fan: But we've won trophies, you haven't

Rather than using Arsenal as the example because that will lead to some bias. A better question is would fans prefer the Ole era or the ETH/Amorim era. We won nothing under Ole but generally performed well in the league and cups, we just didn't win anything. In the last 2.5 years we've been absolutely horrendous in the league but could possibly end up with 3 trophies in 3 years.
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It's a false dichotomy for me. As much as i appreciate Solskjaer as a United legend, i never believed he was getting us anywhere meaningful. What separates Amorim (or ETH before him) from Solskjaer isn't a EL or an FA Cup title, but the promise that his overarching philosophy will help the club rise above the sea of utter mediocrity it currently dwells in. I know it's harsh on Solskjaer's two full seasons at the club, but what the latter lacked wasn't a (minor) trophy. And as far as i know, there wasn't a City or a Liverpool fan who actually believed that Solskajer could turn United into an 80+ points side.
 
The « issue » in this debate is that for Arsenal, they’ve shown great signs of rebuilt without silverware.

Of course we would much prefer to be 2nd in the league right now but that’s because we’ve been having terrible seasons in the league for a while now.

If we had been finishing top 4 for several years on a row we would all be fuming to have no silverware to show for it and barely any cup runs. I mean that’s why we wanted to get rid of OGS, for failing to take us to the next step
 
Cerberus said:
Yes, unquestionably.

Momentum itself is not success. Until they translate that into trophies then they are still firmly a banter club.
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Well, they've proven they are a very good team, and they've had a real shot at the title three seasons running. We are a shit team, and if we win the EL, we are still a shit team. I'd rather be a good team with a shot at the title that matters than have any number of domestic cups or ELs. The EL matters primarily because it gets us to the CL, and improves our ability to get better in the PL.
 
justsomebloke said:
Well, they've proven they are a very good team, and they've had a real shot at the title three seasons running. We are a shit team, and if we win the EL, we are still a shit team. I'd rather be a good team with a shot at the title that matters than have any number of domestic cups or ELs. The EL matters primarily because it gets us to the CL, and improves our ability to get better in the PL.
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There has not been a day, not one single day in the last 3 seasons where arsenal were seriously going to win the league.

They had as much chance as we did, none.
 
Honestly, I’d take the finals and the trophies. Title pushes are nice but if you don’t win anything, it doesn’t mean much in the end. Cup runs give fans real moments to celebrate.
 
Its not a better season winning an inferior competition they were not shit enough to be in. Spurs are in the final for fecks sake
 
Giggsyking said:
What is this? Some kind of condescending classification of the club supporters? Give your head a wobble, there are supporters of other clubs that never witness any success nor win matches and they still keep going to the stadium.
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That's kind of exactly my point. Most clubs don't win anything, but fans still value the experience of going to games each week and enjoying the wins. They don't obsess about trophies (especially not second tier trophies), because for them it's just about supporting their club rather than trying to compare with other teams. For fans who go to games, the league is the absolute king, because that is what you well spend 90% of your time going to games and watching, and getting the good feelings from when we win. Arsenal haven't won any trophy for a few years, but their fans have still had many more enjoyable weekends watching football than we have in that time.
 
I can't remember who won the Europa League last year.

Arsenal have plateaued, that attack just doesn't have enough to push them through, but with City dropping off so badly they still should have made more of a fight of it in the league.

More successful, you can make that argument, better? No chance given this is the worst domestic performance level from Utd for 50 years.
 
Rista said:
You will find zero Arsenal fans who would want to swap places with us. Kinda tells you something. I would much rather be in their situation. We've come to the point where just CL qualification would be a massive success.
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Pretty much this. It cannot be argued that United have delivered more to the fans this season than Arsenal.

That said, the last 10 minutes v Lyon is one for the ages that little boys today who watched it live will tell their grandchildren about 70 years from now.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
Neither.

We'ree utter shite right now, and no matter how much we improve, we won't improve enough in one summer to go from this to challanging.

Arsenal would lose a one horse race. They are losers. They play like losers, and they will always lose when it actually matters.
We knocked them out the FA cup, PSG did them in ther CL.

In both cases, all they had in response was playing for corners and long throws. You don't win things playing like that in the modern game. They lost both games before they set foot on the pitch, because their manager is a coward.
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I mean that's just silly. More often than not we did not play beautiful football under SAF against big teams in Europe. Arsenal went neck to neck with one of the best performing sides in PL history, a side that cheated their way to success. No neutral would agree with this idea that we basically both have the same chance of winning the PL and CL, for a good reason.
 
I posted this in the Arteta thread and I think it's fairly clear that since he came in (both in terms of trophies and also league position (but less clear)) that we're in a better spell than them

ItDoesntEvenMata said:
5.5 years he's been there and despite all the plaudits most fans should logically trade his record for ours over that time.

Arsenal under Arteta: One FA Cup, 2 Community Shields - 8th, 8th, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, TBC (AVG position 5th) probably 2nd this season
Europa League Runners Up


United since 2018/19: FA Cup, Carabao Cup winners - 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 8th (AVG position - between 4-5)
Europa League and FA Cup finalists and possibly another one on the way
Multiple semis in competitions
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Nogbadthebad said:
There has not been a day, not one single day in the last 3 seasons where arsenal were seriously going to win the league.

They had as much chance as we did, none.
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Just trolling, aren't you. At least I hope so, for your sake.
 
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ItDoesntEvenMata said:
I posted this in the Arteta thread and I think it's fairly clear that since he came in (both in terms of trophies and also league position (but less clear)) that we're in a better spell than them
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ItDoesntEvenMata said:
5.5 years he's been there and despite all the plaudits most fans should logically trade his record for ours over that time.

Arsenal under Arteta: One FA Cup, 2 Community Shields - 8th, 8th, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, TBC (AVG position 5th) probably 2nd this season
Europa League Runners Up


United since 2018/19: FA Cup, Carabao Cup winners - 3rd, 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 8th (AVG position - between 4-5)
Europa League and FA Cup finalists and possibly another one on the way
Multiple semis in competitions
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And if you add another 2nd place for them and a 14th-17th place for us, how is that looking? Also, notice anything about the trajectory there?

Getting a team to where Arsenal is now is the core task of a Manager's job at a big club. That is, being in a position to credibly challenge for the big titles. Then it's often down to small things - the outcomes of individual games, luck, form, injuries, how good the competition is. But if you're there you have a chance, and until you're there you don't. We're not there. They are. And domestic cups and ELs don't define the level of a team, they are great fun, but ultimately they are consolation prizes.

And people, just the mentality madness of this thread. Everywhere else people are up in arms about bad we are, how dysfunctional the club is and what a disaster the past decade has been. Until we compare ourselves to Arsenal, then suddenly we've been just great, apparently.
 
justsomebloke said:
And if you add another 2nd place for them and a 14th-17th place for us, how is that looking? Also, notice anything about the trajectory there?
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Also counting "multiple semis in competitions" as achievements and yet their CL semis, the most recent result, doesn't get a mention. Totally unbiased summary that shows we are clearly in a better spell than them.
 
Put it this way, Arsenal are currently in their best period since Wenger's prime and a horrendous post-Ferguson United have still won more trophies than they have.
 
These trophies are nice but they paper over the cracks, it’s a short term dopamine fix. It’s not a real measure of success. Arsenal have been on an upwards trajectory ever since Arteta came in, even this season they’re being mocked but they reached a UCL semi final which is better than they’ve done over the past x years, and we ourselves don’t see us getting there any time soon
 
Nogbadthebad said:
There has not been a day, not one single day in the last 3 seasons where arsenal were seriously going to win the league.

They had as much chance as we did, none.
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They finished 2 points behind City in 23/34. They were incredibly close to winning the league.

22/23 they lead the league for 248 days.

If not for a cheating City side they’d have won the last 2 titles. We would not have.

It’s fascinating how many people in here think a second rate EL trumps competing for the league.
 
justsomebloke said:
Just trolling, aren't you. At least I hope so, for your sake.
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Nope.

They were never going to beat city to the title. They were never going to beat Liverpool this year either. Not for a second.

Because every time they get to the sharp end of a competition, they fold. They have the players, add a half decent striker in January and they would have been the best squad in the league bar city who had already given up. But they are not a team that wins. When the scousers were coming back from the dead in games, grinding out wins, arsenal were surrendering with a whimper.

I'll give you an example here, the game just played against PSG. 70 odd minutes, Saka gets one back. Did anyone think 'here we go' and saw some magical comback hapenning? No. Not even the players did, they went back to long throws and corners, inviting pressure.

But what is liverpool scored at that point? Or chelsea? Even us in europe this year, no matter how bad we've been all season. We'd have all thought they had a chance. That is the difference, and that is why I say arsenal were never in with a chance at the league.
 
Looking at the teams then Arsenal are a better team easily. Trophy wise then we are.
Depends what history you follow. League and qualifying for the Ch Lge, or the minor cups.
 
Let’s remember Arteta came in halfway through the season and won FA Cup, Amorin has come in halfway through the season and could win EL, bonus being CL. I believe in giving Amorin a summer window and see where that takes us, I think we will improve enough not to be struggling in bottom half. Ironic to day we play West Ham which in reverse fixture ETH got sack.
 
adexkola said:
I'm being a bit glib but of course history just doesn't remember the winners, I can go to Wikipedia and it'll tell me who finished 17th in 2012
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Well the fact you had to check wiki first...
 
No. Arsenal are a much healthier and competitive club at the moment. Also, people will remember a 17th place.
 
abr said:
Well the fact you had to check wiki first...
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Nobody really remembers second rate cup winners aside from fans of the clubs that won it. I had to use wiki to check who won the last 4 EL finals.
 
West Ham have Ipswich last day don't they?

So if these results hold then more than likely one of Man. United/Spurs has just given up months of the league season to finish 17th and win nothing.

Arsenal TV was comical at times in the late Wenger era but this will give rise to whole year's worth of memes.
 
Define recent.

Since SAF left, United have had a better history in terms of trophy count and there's not that much difference in average league position.

If you're considering the last 3 seasons, we've won 2 trophies and we're in a final for a third. We've had a top 4 finish and 2 disasters in the league. Arsenal have got 3 top 4 finishes and that's about it.
 
we could also end with better season than Real Madrid. in fact, we should give up CL entirely and just keep qualifying for EL and Conference League, a trophy is a trophy after all.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Define recent.

Since SAF left, United have had a better history in terms of trophy count and there's not that much difference in average league position.

If you're considering the last 3 seasons, we've won 2 trophies and we're in a final for a third. We've had a top 4 finish and 2 disasters in the league. Arsenal have got 3 top 4 finishes and that's about it.
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If you're considering the last three seasons, we've recorded our worst two PL seasons ever in that span. That's pretty much where the issue ends as far as I'm concerned.
 
I'd much rather our squad be in the position Arsenal's is than ours. They're much closer to winning the PL than us. Winning some trophies is nice, but being 16th is absolutely embarrassing. We may even finish 17th. The league shows how good you really are. Ole said this and so has Amorim. Winning minor trophies doesn't make up for terrible league campaigns.
 
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CloneMC16 said:
I'd much rather our squad be in the position Arsenal's is than ours. They're much closer to winning the PL than us. Winning some trophies is nice, but being 16th is absolutely embarrassing. We may even finish 17th. The league shows how good you really are. Ole said this and so has Amorim. Winning minor trophies doesn't make up for terrible league campaigns.
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Well said.

There are only two trophies that can only be won if you're a really, really good team: The Premier League and the Champion's League. Hence they are the measure of success. And that's why getting closer to that is more important - and more ambitious - than winning trophies you can win even if you're a poor team (which clearly includes the FA Cup and the Europa League). Ole was completely right when he said that a focus on the lesser trophies can represent a lack of ambition.
 
Cannot believe this is even a discussion in a season we're literally one position above the relegation zone. Even throwing in an additional FA Cup can't save the embarrassment it has been. Arsenal have been poor by their recent standards but they've still had a far better season than United have and it isn't even close.
 
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