Have we signed anyone yet? | Yes, with stupid tax

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BluesJr

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The June thing isn't an issue considering no players we signed would be training just now anyway, next week is obviously huge. We need to sign at least 3 before flying out.
 

Real Name

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I'm saying we have a pool of players that most would agree are unlikely to be good enough for us...hence little debate, whether that be with Ten Hag, the Board or us as fans.

Can we sell all of them....why not if we had a competent board. We wouldn't even need 10 new players. Most of those can go and simply be replaced by the next batch of youth coming through who are arguably better.

If we sold Rashford, Fred, McTominay, Maguire then of course proper squad players/ starters need to be replaced. But if you sold all 15 and brought 5 much better players we are likely to be far better off.

Our squad is bloated with average players. We don't sell because of a false sense of value. The Board fail to realise that the sale values often have to be much lower to account for the salaries we have given out.
If you think we can sell them all in a one go that's simply not realistic. We can talk about why some players who should have been sold havent been already but you cant expect us to sell 10 players in one transfer window nor is our youth batch so good it could replace them right away. That's not how it goes.
Neither it goes you sell 10 and buy 5 much better players. Its not Football manager, its real life.

Also a pool of players most agree to be not good enough? You numbered about 15 players and concluded most agree on them being sold.
 

Real Name

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The point is that we currently have 0 in and 0 out, off the back of an utterly horrible season. It's concerning that we still haven't got any deals over the line, but there is at least time to do that. The fact we can't seem to shift any of the deadwood is just plain irritating.

Also, every deal we try to do has to be some kind of saga.
Neither is our every deal a saga and the fact we havent signed anyone or released some more deadwood doesnt mean it wont happen. There's no deadline for releasing deadwood other than the end of the transfer window.
 

Hoof the ball

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This is what will happen -

Monday - we’ll announce de Jong
Tuesday - we’ll announce Malacia
Wednesday - no announcements
Thursday - we’ll announce Eriksen
Friday - we’ll be after either Martinez or Antony with a view to sign them next week.
Monday
Monitored the situation on Tuesday
We were considering a bid by Wednesday
And on Thursday, and Friday, and Saturday
Arnold got his sleep on Sunday
 

LawCharltonBest

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This is what will happen -

Monday - we’ll announce de Jong
Tuesday - we’ll announce Malacia
Wednesday - no announcements
Thursday - we’ll announce Eriksen
Friday - we’ll be after either Martinez or Antony with a view to sign them next week.
And then reality

Monday - nothing
Tuesday - nothing
Wednesday - nothing
Thursday - nothing
Friday - new 5 year deal for Maguire
 

slyadams

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Quote that statement of mine please?
So you expected us to sell 10-15 players and then what, buy 10 new ones?
The numbers you quoted imply that the person you're responding to is expecting those numbers. Clearly they weren't and you over-exaggerated to make your point. I simply called that out.

No-one expects 10 in/10 out, we would have liked more than 0 after the worst season in living memory, a new manager coming in, a new back room structure and presumably a change in playing style/philosophy. Its OK to say "things take time", but presumably we are looking to move 4-5 players on and bringing 4-5 in so that means that 10 deals have so much complexity it takes months and we can't get them done until after pre-season is underway, perhaps even the first games of the season?
 

Real Name

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The numbers you quoted imply that the person you're responding to is expecting those numbers. Clearly they weren't and you over-exaggerated to make your point. I simply called that out.

No-one expects 10 in/10 out, we would have liked more than 0 after the worst season in living memory, a new manager coming in, a new back room structure and presumably a change in playing style/philosophy. Its OK to say "things take time", but presumably we are looking to move 4-5 players on and bringing 4-5 in so that means that 10 deals have so much complexity it takes months and we can't get them done until after pre-season is underway, perhaps even the first games of the season?
Poster I quoted literally wrote about 10 to 15 players needed to be sold.
 

Zed 101

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I foolishly hoped things had changed in the management of this club but I guess SSDD

Albert Einstein : “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
 

Real Name

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Because you might only get 4 or 5 acceptable offers.
Fair enough but fans and posters expecting or thinking 5 or 10 players should be sold isnt the same as what manager thinks. Maybe he thinks he can get something from some of them and not listen to offers for all 10 or 15 of them. Either way we seem to be going in circles here.
 

UnitedFire

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The numbers you quoted imply that the person you're responding to is expecting those numbers. Clearly they weren't and you over-exaggerated to make your point. I simply called that out.

No-one expects 10 in/10 out, we would have liked more than 0 after the worst season in living memory, a new manager coming in, a new back room structure and presumably a change in playing style/philosophy. Its OK to say "things take time", but presumably we are looking to move 4-5 players on and bringing 4-5 in so that means that 10 deals have so much complexity it takes months and we can't get them done until after pre-season is underway, perhaps even the first games of the season?
This is rocket science...thanks for breaking it down!

Our aim should be to have a plan months in advance for what actions need to be taken by what dates to make 10 sales possible. Most of the 10 can barely be considered squad players or there are already plans to bring someone in their position so same end result.

Similarly if we need to sell to buy we need to be teeing up the sale early on so we know we can go out and buy the upgrades. E.g. if we sold McTominay we'd definitely want a DM or playmaker to upgrade the midfield options. This becomes a priority to plan ahead because its two deals effectively tied to each other.

Players like Chong could be lined up 6 months in advance, as we've known for a while now that he isn't likely to cut it. A loan might also be a choice if we think the value optimisation isn't right yet, but at a time we need to rebuild we really need to be ruthless to create cash for reinvestment.
 

UnitedFire

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Fair enough but fans and posters expecting or thinking 5 or 10 players should be sold isnt the same as what manager thinks. Maybe he thinks he can get something from some of them and not listen to offers for all 10 or 15 of them. Either way we seem to be going in circles here.
A fringe player is that for a reason. The quality is lacking. Agreed a new setup, a new of playing can unlock some players potential, but there still has to be enough raw talent and desire.

Martial for example has raw talent, but arguably not desire or work rate. Even if Ten Hag thinks he can make him work that is very different to...a £40m offer has come in, would you like ti sell and we'll spend £20m more and get Antony. Instead of being unaffordable and outside budget, suddenly we can afford those upgrades. The £20m might even be covered by a Chong and a Periera. Suddenly then its 3 players who didn't play last year giving you one who could play every game.
 

Real Name

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A fringe player is that for a reason. The quality is lacking. Agreed a new setup, a new of playing can unlock some players potential, but there still has to be enough raw talent and desire.

Martial for example has raw talent, but arguably not desire or work rate. Even if Ten Hag thinks he can make him work that is very different to...a £40m offer has come in, would you like ti sell and we'll spend £20m more and get Antony. Instead of being unaffordable and outside budget, suddenly we can afford those upgrades. The £20m might even be covered by a Chong and a Periera. Suddenly then its 3 players who didn't play last year giving you one who could play every game.
Fair, but for instance Rahsford and Fred. I dont think they should be sold. For now. And Rashford has some quality which he needs to rediscover and hopefully will.
 

onemanarmy

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I'm saying we have a pool of players that most would agree are unlikely to be good enough for us...hence little debate, whether that be with Ten Hag, the Board or us as fans.

Can we sell all of them....why not if we had a competent board. We wouldn't even need 10 new players. Most of those can go and simply be replaced by the next batch of youth coming through who are arguably better.

If we sold Rashford, Fred, McTominay, Maguire then of course proper squad players/ starters need to be replaced. But if you sold all 15 and brought 5 much better players we are likely to be far better off.

Our squad is bloated with average players. We don't sell because of a false sense of value. The Board fail to realise that the sale values often have to be much lower to account for the salaries we have given out.
Tbf, the previous men in charge were responsible for that. We've let a ton of players go on a free, and it's been widely reported a lot of others are for sale. The contracts Woodward en the others handed out aren't helping the current guys to sell players.

AWB, Bailly, Jones, Pereira, Martial... are among those being made available for a transfer.
 

UnitedFire

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Fair, but for instance Rahsford and Fred. I dont think they should be sold. For now. And Rashford has some quality which he needs to rediscover and hopefully will.
Rashford is a case in itself. 2 years left on his contract. Now is the time of maximum value. There is still enough to suggest he could come back and be great and that value can be sold.

If we continue with him we almost certainly want to offer a new contract or lose £20-30m in valuation. The problem is if we offer that contract and he doesn't perform we might lose £40m because he'll be priced out of the market via his salary.

The numbers are clearly hard to pin down, but we could have got £25m for Lingard and he went for nothing. We might have got £100m for Pogba 3 years ago and he has gone for nothing with very little given to us in those 3 years.

We are constantly gambling on players reaching their potential or returning to pre injury levels when there are already big warning signs. We need to be focusing on attributes and consistency and minimising risk around injuries given we've been blighted with that for a while now.

If someone offered c£70m for Rashford I would bite their hands off. At £45m I'd probably say try to negotiate a reasonable contract and keep him for now. Again the contract negotiations should already have been had to understand what Rashford would deem reasonable. At £200k a week you might say let's take a risk. If he wants £400k then we would need to weigh up the timing, but definitely want to sell. Waiting till Jan is risky as with 18 months left Rashford might decide to run down the contract.

Fred is again a valuation question. If we could get Neves for £50m and sell Fred for £35m I'd say that is a deal worth doing. £15m to massively improve midfield. If Neves for £60m and Fred £30m it might not look such a good option.

It just feels like we don't work anywhere near hard enough to plan these kind of aspects. Other clubs get deals done early because they have a plan.

Its obvious we don't have an adequate plan.
 

Real Name

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Rashford is a case in itself. 2 years left on his contract. Now is the time of maximum value. There is still enough to suggest he could come back and be great and that value can be sold.

If we continue with him we almost certainly want to offer a new contract or lose £20-30m in valuation. The problem is if we offer that contract and he doesn't perform we might lose £40m because he'll be priced out of the market via his salary.

The numbers are clearly hard to pin down, but we could have got £25m for Lingard and he went for nothing. We might have got £100m for Pogba 3 years ago and he has gone for nothing with very little given to us in those 3 years.

We are constantly gambling on players reaching their potential or returning to pre injury levels when there are already big warning signs. We need to be focusing on attributes and consistency and minimising risk around injuries given we've been blighted with that for a while now.

If someone offered c£70m for Rashford I would bite their hands off. At £45m I'd probably say try to negotiate a reasonable contract and keep him for now. Again the contract negotiations should already have been had to understand what Rashford would deem reasonable. At £200k a week you might say let's take a risk. If he wants £400k then we would need to weigh up the timing, but definitely want to sell. Waiting till Jan is risky as with 18 months left Rashford might decide to run down the contract.

Fred is again a valuation question. If we could get Neves for £50m and sell Fred for £35m I'd say that is a deal worth doing. £15m to massively improve midfield. If Neves for £60m and Fred £30m it might not look such a good option.

It just feels like we don't work anywhere near hard enough to plan these kind of aspects. Other clubs get deals done early because they have a plan.

Its obvious we don't have an adequate plan.
Hopefully with a bit of reshuffle in the board and with ETH coming there is some kind of plan and an idea how to work, which players to sell and when and which to buy as opposed to scatter gun approach we seem to had up until now for years.
All decent points. Maybe with buying a forward (Antony?) we'll decide to sell Rashford, who knows. As it stands we're kind of at bare bones in forward positions.

As it stands Pereira is for sale, Martial potentially too, his huge salary is an obstacle of course, Jones will likely retire at United though. :D
And with a potential CB coming in Bailly might be sold too.
 

Red the Bear

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I was thinking about it and something like this would be fantastic:
De jong €80m
De ligt €70m + telles or somw like that
Antony €70m
Martinez €45m
Malacia €15m
Eriksen free

Total spent: €280m

Now the chances of us having a window like that would be practically zero but God what a glorious sight this would be.


Though it might be better to start the season with fewer incomings as it does put a ton of pressure on Eric.
 

Lemon Moon

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Oh so it's all going to happen 'next week' ahh okay then, thanks for confirming.
 
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