Headed goals

[Pogue Mahone]

He scored one against Atlanta.

Most of our crosses are lopped in with little pace, like Bruno's against Brighton that Ronaldo nearly scored. We never fire them in early with pace and those are the easiest to score as all you need to do is put direction on them. Slower crosses require more precision as well as some pace added to them.

The two crosses Ronaldo missed against Brighton were perfect. He’s so close he doesn’t need to add any pace, just direction.

What’s weird to me is how few goals we score from set-pieces. Which are usually whipped in with pace. I mean, the delivery could often be better but it’s so bizarre that nobody ever gets on the end of them.

 

[11101]

The two crosses Ronaldo missed against Brighton were perfect. He’s so close he doesn’t need to add any pace, just direction.

What’s weird to me is how few goals we score from set-pieces. Which are usually whipped in with pace. I mean, the delivery could often be better but it’s so bizarre that nobody ever gets on the end of them.

Bruno's cross didn't have much pace on it and a lot of spin. It needed accuracy which is why Ronaldo went for the very corner of the goal.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bruno's cross didn't have much pace on it and a lot of spin. It needed accuracy which is why Ronaldo went for the very corner of the goal.

It was a good cross and an easy chance to score, regardless.

Ronaldo’s timing has been off with his headers a lot this season. His Atalanta goal was fantastic but he’s nowhere near the aerial threat he once was. Obviously finding it harder and harder to time his leap as his legs start to go. Inevitable really. Still, though, we have more players than him who should be contributing with headed goals.

 

[Bobcat]

Not very well

Headed goals in the league only according to the premier league official website.

1. City 10
2. Pool 9
3. Chelsea 9




15. United 3

Then 5 teams with two for the season so far

According to whoscored Liverpool, Chelsea and City have 9 headed goals each, we have 2.

Liverpool 14 set piece goals, us 2.

Our games would be a lot easier if we were even half as competent at corners etc as other teams.

Thats simply abysmal.

Especially considering we have Ronaldo and Cavani, two of the best headers in todays game

 

[Terry Chango]

That’s the one! Was wracking my brains for the third headed goal.

So crazy that we’re half way thru February, have a team full of very tall players and the only headers have been scored by Elanga and Donny.

I had to watch a YouTube video for all our goals so far to remember that Donny one against Watford tbf. I think most of us had erased the game from our memory

It is crazy indeed mate.

 

[acnumber9]

Some of us went to to the effort of checking the stats out and posted them above Jesus

Might want to check them again then. Elanga has only scored one goal this season. The other header he scored was against Wolves last season.

 

[Terry Chango]

Might want to check them again then. Elanga has only scored one goal this season. The other header he scored was against Wolves last season.

Good man.

We’ve still scored more than one as Elanga has one and so does Donny.

Premier league website says we have scored 3 headed goals this season. If this is correct who has the third ?

 

[acnumber9]

Good man.

We’ve still scored more than one as Elanga has one and so does Donny.

Premier league website says we have scored 3 headed goals this season. If this is correct who has the third ?

No idea. Nothing stands out at all. Our crossing is awful though so it’s not a huge surprise. And for some reason we still aim every set piece at Harry Maguire.

 

[matsdf]

Good man.

We’ve still scored more than one as Elanga has one and so does Donny.

Premier league website says we have scored 3 headed goals this season. If this is correct who has the third ?

Nevermind (thought of Scotty in the FA cup).

 

[kthanksbye]

Another one from a corner tonight for Liverpool. Changing a game they were second best.

If you watched the game, do you remember the Perisic cross in the 2nd half that was slightly overhit for Dzeko?
I don't ever see us getting into those positions, neither do I see us playing crosses like that.

 

[Alfie092]

He scored one against Atlanta.

Most of our crosses are lopped in with little pace, like Bruno's against Brighton that Ronaldo nearly scored. We never fire them in early with pace and those are the easiest to score as all you need to do is put direction on them. Slower crosses require more precision as well as some pace added to them.

This. Shaw and Dalot tend to float the ball in without too much pace on the ball and when they do try to put pace on it, it's just overhit...

If you taking the pairing of Trent and Robertson for example, they can vary their crossing and fire them early with pace too, that way, even if you're not the best aerially, all you have to do like you said is direct the ball. Saying that, I did expect Ronaldo to be scoring a couple of the headed chances he has missed recently, regardless of the pace on the ball and he himself would know that.

 

[Glorio]

It wasn't in the league, but McT got one from a Fred cross against Villa in the FAC. We should have scored more this season, but the delivery is usually really poor. None of our fullbacks have crossed well this season, and most of our corners are hitting the first man. It doesn't help things.

I disagree here regarding set pieces. Last season yes, we tended to hit the first man. This season we've had some good deliveries, but the positioning of those supposed to head the ball is mystifying. Most times all of them start in a cluster and make the same run!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

 

[The Corinthian]

Like London buses.

 

[Withnail]

Like London buses.

Came here to see you'd gotten there seconds before me

 

[Atheist]

When it rains, it pours. It’s literally true right now and also for our situation with headed goals.

 

[TheGodsInRed]

Two headed goals in a game... In fact, just two goals in a game. Unbelievable!!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Another classic Pogue jinx thread. Wait, no. What’s the opposite of jinx?

 

[Sandikan]

By pure averages Maguire had to score soon. He seems to get his head on about 90% of corners, and it's baffling so few are on target.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So that was a false dawn. Our drought of headers continues. It’s so annoying. Heading in an occasional corner is such a vital part of a good season but this seems to be completely beyond us. Even more so when our rivals score these sort of goals so frequently.

 

[golden_blunder]

Hanging out with Lindelof too much

 

[Skills]

So that was a false dawn. Our drought of headers continues. It’s so annoying. Heading in an occasional corner is such a vital part of a good season but this seems to be completely beyond us. Even more so when our rivals score these sort of goals so frequently.

We don't have a threat from our CBs. Varane has got 20 career goals in over 400 club games. Martinez is also a 1 in 20 goal scorer.

Lindelof is just as bad as them two, while Maguire has a threat in the box but can't seem to convert.

Personally I think it's pointless for us to whip a cross in from corners or free kicks. Should just take it short everytime

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We don't have a threat from our CBs. Varane has got 20 career goals in over 400 club games. Martinez is also a 1 in 20 goal scorer.

Lindelof is just as bad as them two, while Maguire has a threat in the box but can't seem to convert.

Personally I think it's pointless for us to whip a cross in from corners or free kicks. Should just take it short everytime

1 in 20 would more or less guarantee us two goals from each CB each season. Which would probably be an improvement on what we’ve produced these last few years!

 

[Dion]

Maguire converts exactly as many as you'd expect from someone who gets his chances ffs, how is this myth still being pedalled?

Compared to Van Dijk

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maguire converts exactly as many as you'd expect from someone who gets his chances ffs, how is this myth still being pedalled?

Compared to Van Dijk

What myth?

 

[Chief123]

So that was a false dawn. Our drought of headers continues. It’s so annoying. Heading in an occasional corner is such a vital part of a good season but this seems to be completely beyond us. Even more so when our rivals score these sort of goals so frequently.

For our best headers of the ball to score, we need additional threats from others to occupy their best defenders. At the moment we only really have Varane and Ronaldo who are any kind of threat aerially with a physical presence. It’s a lot easier to shut out.

Arsenal for instance who scored from a corner yesterday have Saliba, Gabriel, Partey, White, Xhaka and Jesus who can all offer some form of physical or aerial threat.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This article is interesting.

Corner-kicks
Over the last 18 seasons, corner-kicks have produced between 9.8 per cent and 14.2 per cent of all Premier League goals. During 2021/22, that figure stood at a healthy 13.6 per cent, the second-highest share in a decade. Overall, 146 goals were scored from corners this season, a rise of 12 from 2020/21 and the joint second-highest on record.

Specialist coaches making a difference
With marginal gains considered so valuable in modern sport, the merits of spending extra time working on set-piece routines makes complete sense. And right across the division, an influx of specialist set-piece coaches have been employed to help. Since the recording of this data began in 2004, the average number of goals scored from corners has been 127 per season. That level has been surpassed in each of the last five top-flight campaigns.

Arsenal have displayed an incredible improvement from corners. Last season, they scored only three times from corner-kicks, but that rose to an impressive 13 in 2021/22. New set-piece coach Nicolas Jover, formerly of Manchester City, has been credited with bringing about this advancement. Under his guidance, Arsenal came up with a variety of routines to capitalise on defensive weaknesses that their analysis had identified, and that hard work paid off.

Liverpool and Man City were also outstanding, scoring 15 goals apiece.

Jurgen Klopp has praised assistant Peter Krawietz and his team of analysts for their planning, along with German neuroscientists Neuro11 for helping set-piece takers hone their decision-making.

Pep Guardiola’s set-piece coach Carlos Vicens also did a stellar job throughout 2021/22, as City scored the most set-piece goals (21) and conceded the fewest (one).

Most shots/goals from corners

Player	Shots from corners	Player	Goals from corners
Matip	28	Gabriel	5
Rudiger	24	Laporte	3
Laporte	23	Llorente	3
Van Dijk	23	Fabinho	3
Dawson	20	Bednarek	3
Duffy	19	Salah	3
Gabriel	18	Van Dijk	3

Most goals from corners 2021/22

Team	Corner goals
Liverpool	15
Man City	15
Arsenal	13
West Ham	10

Looks like Manchester United are definitely missing a trick here.

That Chelsea bloke we hired to help with set-pieces needs his cards marked. He seems to be doing a terrible job.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For our best headers of the ball to score, we need additional threats from others to occupy their best defenders. At the moment we only really have Varane and Ronaldo who are any kind of threat aerially with a physical presence. It’s a lot easier to shut out.

Arsenal for instance who scored from a corner yesterday have Saliba, Gabriel, Partey, White, Xhaka and Jesus who can all offer some form of physical or aerial threat.

We've been one of the taller teams of the league going back a few seasons (Maguire, Bailly, Pogba, Matic, Lukaku, McT etc) but we've been consistently shite at scoring from corners regardless. This is a long-standing issue, which didn't start this season.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Marcus regressed with his "head play" abilities.

I remember when he was younger he scored a few header goals(header against Arsenal in his second game in the senior team I think)

Now he doesn't even bothers to get into the box

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

It's definitely a problem and has been for years, including the Mourinho era where we were one of the tallest teams in the league.

Probably exaggerated even further in those couple of seasons under Ole when our first choice attack was Martial, Greenwood/James and Rashford - who I'm quite sure will have scored fewer than 10 headers for us combined. Was fun watching Cavani in 20/21 reminding everyone it's still possible to score these goals.

 

[kundalini]

That Chelsea bloke we hired to help with set-pieces needs his cards marked. He seems to be doing a terrible job.

We went from conceding 8, 9, 9 in the PL to conceding 4 from corners last season, though the xGA stats make it seem as though luck played a big part in the change.

Fletcher made some reference to the set-pieces coach helping us defend them, as well as trying to get us to score more.

With regard to headers, we need players to establish relationships so that for instance Fernandes knows that Dalot will be looking to cross to him as happened for the first of 4 big chances against Southampton, or Elanga at the far post from Antony (less likely as Elanga probably won't feature that often).

For corners, we need a lot more imagination. I'd be tempted to focus on exploiting opponents' offside trap as they come out, rather than going for a normal delivery.

 

[Dion]

What myth?

That Maguire gets on the end of loads of chances but doesn't convert them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That Maguire gets on the end of loads of chances but doesn't convert them.

Getting his head on the end of a corner is probably the most important factor in actually scoring from them, right?

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s not much variety when it comes to converting headed chances, once they win that header. They’re so close to the goal that finishing ability won’t have much influence on the % they convert.

Mind you, based on the eye test alone, Maguire does seem to have a habit of messing up headed chances from very close to the goal. If the stats say otherwise then fine. But that’s obviously not the main issue here.

 

[Kush]

We don't have any good headers of the ball in the squad apart from Ronaldo, and he is easy to mark if he is your sole threat. We seem to be losing out on 10 goals from corners, and probably 10 more from FKs due to lack of aerial ability in the squad. There is no solution to this problem apart from personnel change

 

[Dion]

Getting his head on the end of a corner is probably the most important factor in actually scoring from them, right?

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s not much variety when it comes to converting headed chances, once they win that header. They’re so close to the goal that finishing ability won’t have much influence on the % they convert.

Mind you, based on the eye test alone, Maguire does seem to have a habit of messing up headed chances from very close to the goal. If the stats say otherwise then fine. But that’s obviously not the main issue here.

Yes, which is the data displayed in my original post. Even someone like Ramos has scored 15 goals from corners since 14-15, if he had the same conversion success as Maguire he'd have scored...13. Ronaldo, possibly the best header of the ball in history has scored 17 from corners, from an xG of just over 16. The actual real predictor of scoring from corners is corner volume, which is why City and Liverpool score 15+ a season.

Maguire has an xG from corners of 6.39 and has scored 7 goals, so basically he's doing about what you'd expect from a very limited data set. The eye test is flawed because he's a unit with a massive head, so when he does miss you notice it more and peoples perceptions of how often you score from corners is heavily warped. The reality is basically nobody scores many from corners, the absolute best score on average 2 a season. They're generally awful chances against set defences even with "clean headers".

We seem to be losing out on 10 goals from corners, and probably 10 more from FKs due to lack of aerial ability in the squad. There is no solution to this problem apart from personnel change

See above, it's not a personnel issue, it's a "we don't get as many corners as City or Liverpool issue". We got 197 corners last season, City and Liverpool got either side of 300. We got the same number of goals from corners as Spurs did from almost the same number of corners (and shots created from corners).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes, which is the data displayed in my original post. Even someone like Ramos has scored 15 goals from corners since 14-15, if he had the same conversion success as Maguire he'd have scored...13. Ronaldo, possibly the best header of the ball in history has scored 17 from corners, from an xG of just over 16. The actual real predictor of scoring from corners is corner volume, which is why City and Liverpool score 15+ a season.

Maguire has an xG from corners of 6.39 and has scored 7 goals, so basically he's doing about what you'd expect from a very limited data set. The eye test is flawed because he's a unit with a massive head, so when he does miss you notice it more and peoples perceptions of how often you score from corners is heavily warped. The reality is basically nobody scores many from corners, the absolute best score on average 2 a season. They're generally awful chances against set defences even with "clean headers".


See above, it's not a personnel issue, it's a "we don't get as many corners as City or Liverpool issue". We got 197 corners last season, City and Liverpool got either side of 300. We got the same number of goals from corners as Spurs did from almost the same number of corners (and shots created from corners).

Good point about volume of corners but Arsenal only got 208 corners last season (which is very close to our 197) and only scored two goals less than City/Liverpool.

 

[Dion]

Good point about volume of corners but Arsenal only got 208 corners last season (which is very close to our 197) and only scored two goals less than City/Liverpool.

Arsenal vastly over-performed their xG from corners last season. The actual chances they created from corners was about where you'd expect given the number of corners they had. You can see from the graphs that outside of the noise in xG you get from teams that don't create much at all only really Burnley create far more chances from their corners than they "should" do and they've only done that last season, so it could well be an anomaly.

Realistically from our corner volume if we were at the Premier League average we'd have another 2/3 of goals from corners a season, anything more than that and you're looking at pure luck on how well you finish them.

 

[Dion]

I would like to do a height comparison but I can't get the https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/atlasdemo/ website to show me last seasons heights. If anyone knows how please DM me!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Arsenal vastly over-performed their xG from corners last season. The actual chances they created from corners was about where you'd expect given the number of corners they had. You can see from the graphs that outside of the noise in xG you get from teams that don't create much at all only really Burnley create far more chances from their corners than they "should" do and they've only done that last season, so it could well be an anomaly.

Realistically from our corner volume if we were at the Premier League average we'd have another 2/3 of goals from corners a season, anything more than that and you're looking at pure luck on how well you finish them.

Ah. Ok. That's all very interesting. Thanks.

Side note. Our corner volume has been fairly abysmal so far this season. Only 3 clubs have won fewer corners than us (22) and the 5 clubs with the most corners so far have over double our total.

 

[Dion]

Side note. Our corner volume has been fairly abysmal so far this season. Only 3 clubs have won fewer corners than us (22) and the 5 clubs with the most corners so far have over double our total.

Yeah it's a strange one. The only game we've done okay in in that regard is vs Brighton on the opening day. I supposed the last 4 results have all been us playing a bit more within ourselves, but even vs Brentford where we had all of the ball we didn't get many.

I would suspect it's us not moving the ball around quickly enough in the advanced areas of the pitch, but it's probably something outside of the reach of the data we have at hand to determine.