Think Scholes and Rio brought the counter attacking up last night. That to do it properly you need a CF that when you hit him with the ball it sticks. So we either need a CF that can do that or we change how we play to suit the players we have.
High pressing
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Think it will really benefit Sanchez not being at the world cup and being able to go on tour. Problem with that is how many of his teammates will be there.
And if we signed Lukaku to be that guy then I'm worried. We need to play higher up the pitch and play Lukaku in. Through balls and crosses, he's no target man!
I know he get a lot of shit here but we are using him wrong.
I agree. Think Jose has misjudged Lukaku for the role. So then the style has to change to make the most of him or we are on a hiding to nothing. We have fallen into the trap that being big he will be able to hold defenders off with his back to goal and will be a colossus in the air. He is a battering ram who needs to be bullying his way through defenders on the run.
Everyone that has watched Lukaku for the last five years know that hold up play wasn't his strong suit. He likes to run into the ball and use his pace and power or he wants crosses from wide positions.
I can't believe Mourinho would have misjudged him.
We are so fecking predictable in whatever we are doing. Predictable sideway pass delayed 2 seconds, predictable pressing by Mata, while everybody stays behind CHECK. Fecking dreadful.
Then he has made a big mistake. If he will not play to his strengthens and is hellbent of trying to change Lukaku's style of play we are right in the sh*t.
You can't high press with Lukaku. Anyone notice shortly after kickoff when Herrera gave him a rocket for not even bothering to close down the defender?
He isn't mobile enough and doesn't have the inclination to do it.
He isn't mobile enough and doesn't have the inclination to do it.
We don't press high as it's not Jose's style. We should be though, that's when you get more goal scoring chances when you force defenders to make mistakes or win possession in dangerous area.
We don't press because it's not the game plan.
As for us being pressed and shitting ourselves over and over again regardless of the level of opposition is baffling. We must not training for holding onto the ball when being pressing, quick passing and moving.
I've seen bottom sides in the league hold onto the ball better than us while being pressed.
As for us being pressed and shitting ourselves over and over again regardless of the level of opposition is baffling. We must not training for holding onto the ball when being pressing, quick passing and moving.
I've seen bottom sides in the league hold onto the ball better than us while being pressed.
I think reason for it lack of pressing. How you train for that when our team don't know how to press?
Maybe completely wrong but I always thought on these lines.
It's like you can't train one on one defending if our team don't have good dribblers.
City do
They keep the ball for 85 minutes of that though.
This team just doesn't know how to press. You can do it like Tottenham did it to us or like Liverpool press putting players under direct pressure, closing them down giving the player no time on the ball or you can keep your distance and cut off the channels, making passing forward very difficult and forcing teams to hoof the ball forward.
We don't do either, or should I say try both. We start off by pressing the player and stop 2m short from the player to at the same time try and cut off the channel, but mostly we don't press at all we run back with the attacking players to stop just outside our own 16m and then setup to defend giving the player on the ball all the time and space in the world to choose his pass. As some have said by the time we do get to retrieve the ball we are just outside our own box and our 10 to 15 touch counter attack gets put into motion at a snail's pace. Still don't get why when we do try and attack the ball must first be passed around the back 5 before someone decides to try and take it forward.
We don't do either, or should I say try both. We start off by pressing the player and stop 2m short from the player to at the same time try and cut off the channel, but mostly we don't press at all we run back with the attacking players to stop just outside our own 16m and then setup to defend giving the player on the ball all the time and space in the world to choose his pass. As some have said by the time we do get to retrieve the ball we are just outside our own box and our 10 to 15 touch counter attack gets put into motion at a snail's pace. Still don't get why when we do try and attack the ball must first be passed around the back 5 before someone decides to try and take it forward.
True, most our players have the brawn with very little to no football brain or technical ability.
Never thought about it like that, good point.
I've always enjoyed pressing teams, especially when they win the ball back or force an error it really pays off, that can really rally your team when they see you working your balls off.
No team in the world is as good at holding onto the ball as Barcelona 2009-2012 so a high press done correctly will work 99% of the times. City vs Liverpool was a fine example, City probably have the highest possession % in the world but I think all 4 goals came from forced errors.
I think Spurs are a better example of how to do it in bursts. You don't need to be like Liverpool and press solid for 90mins, leaving you tired at the 80th min or second half of the season. Spurs never seem to tire because they're not constantly pressing. They also move the ball quickly to transition to attack. Gonna finally jump on the band wagon and hope we sign Poch to take over in the summer.
Exactly, that combination of strength and speed is.something we need to takr advantage off.
I know he's received a lot of shit, but I genuinely feel he's been misused and can score 40 goals if used correctly.
What was that last 10 minutes. We couldn't even press properly and they were easily playing around.
We look so bad vs a press when that's our midfield. Need a minimum of one centre mid this summer.
Should Sarri take over at Chelsea and with Emery newly installed at Arsenal, the top six will be a festival of pressing.
And Manchester United.
(Not a criticism per se, it'll just be interesting to see how things pan out.)
And Manchester United.
(Not a criticism per se, it'll just be interesting to see how things pan out.)
Was thinking the same after the Emery interview. The only thing that would stop people moaning is if we are top.
Personally, I wish we'd stop allowing teams play. Think it's a fundamental reason why we start games poorly.
Personally, I wish we'd stop allowing teams play. Think it's a fundamental reason why we start games poorly.
There's no doubt we will be left behind if we don't evolve the style of football. I'm praying that K Mckenna and Carrick can at least help us on that front - moving the ball quicker, playing on the front foot etc otherwise if we continue with this passive tumescent stuff we will find ourselves back in 6th again.
I just don't see Jose giving any real control to the coaches.
He's played a certain way his whole career. I don't see how that will change now
He's played a certain way his whole career. I don't see how that will change now
Mourinho seems to be a stubborn contrarian. Whatever football is deemed modern and successful, he'll try to win the opposite way. I bet he despises pressing, passing and moving.
Yep, the criticism will only be amped up further next season if we continue to fall short.
We do hand a lot of the initiative to the opposition. Away from home and with the capacity to counter, I'm not too adverse to that setup, but at OT it is needless and just makes fans restless. We don't have to be pressing team to be successful, nor do I think that Mourinho's blueprint is necessarily dated, we just have to execute his approach to it's fullest - something we've only done on occasion in the last couple of seasons. Because an archetypal Mourinho performance is still a hugely effective and productive one.
I was thinking the same. We suck vs teams who press too.
We are awful at pressing and dealing with pressing. This has been an issue for us long before Mourinho took over though. We were also shit at it in the last couple of years of Fergie, under Moyes and Van Gaal too. And that will not change in the near future.
Like Emery said in his press conference, he likes to be the protagonist and Jose's philosophy is the complete opposite of that. We will be antagonist until he leaves.
Like Emery said in his press conference, he likes to be the protagonist and Jose's philosophy is the complete opposite of that. We will be antagonist until he leaves.
So a team like newcastle press better than us. What's the result? Do they end up 2nd?
By archetypical Mourinho approach you mean park the bus and counterattack? What happens when the opposition parks the bus and tries to counterattack?
When we have tried to play against a parked defence for the last two seasons we have been pretty much clueless. Since we are not used to, or trained to, or want to control the game or the ball we got no idea how to unlock the defence, besides long shots and hoofballs into the box...
They don't have the offensive quality to take advantage of it. Just because United stumbled to 2nd doesn't mean United were fantastic over the course of the season. The same Newcastle beat United.
Good post. Very fair assessment.
His gameplan is definitely evolving still. That's part of why I am trying to be a bit more patient with some of the awful football we have played...there are plenty of great highlights in and amongst them.
My question nobody seems to be able to or want to answer is, what were we doing against CSKA Moscow away? That was for me, our best performance outside the FA Cup semi against Spurs. It also included Lukaku and Martial together. We pressed well, defended well and were so bloody fluid that game. Quick transitions. It was a great game to watch for United. Ironically, I recall it didn't include the ineptitude of Valencia on the right side, stopping any attack, nor did it include Pogba in the middle dilly-dallying with the ball.
Yep, by 'archetypal' I was referring to his setup against direct rivals and also his approach in finals. Mourinho has won countless titles by not losing to those closest to you in the league. We've shown on occasion we can execute such an approach, notable ones being Chelsea at OT last year, Liverpool at Anfield.
Our issues against pack defences is another debate and is certainly something Mourinho has to look to address. Because our players have shown on countless occasions, that without clearer direction, they look largely bereft of ideas. Mourinho's reliance on attackers thinking for themselves isn't bearing fruit at United.
Mourinho's sides only press sporadically. This will not change.
Who knows, having a different approach to the other sides in the top 6, may pay dividends.
Who knows, having a different approach to the other sides in the top 6, may pay dividends.
I wonder this too.
You know what kind of a game you're going to get when it involves two high-pressing teams - frantic, energy-sapping and largely uncontrollable. Mourinho's well-worn tactic of killing a game could stand us in good stead, providing of course we get the attacking side of our game sorted and learn to beat the league's fodder.
I completely agree with you that in some matches(Big finals and derbies) having a pragmatic and cynical approach will most likely give the best results in the short term. And at this, Mourinho is better than most, if not all. But long term wouldn't it be better to allways try to outplay the opposition by playing fluid and attacking football, and challenging our own players to their limits, both in training and in matches? Thus creating a incentive for developement and improvement.
In my eyes, having an attacking approach and trying to score one more than the opponent will yield better result in the long term, both in results and developement of players. By this i don't mean all out Zdenek Zeman approach, but attack with some sense. And having a defensive approach and trying to concede one less goal than the opponent will yield short term result, but will in the long term cause stagnation both in results and player developement.
You think Lukaku is not the target man?
We have managed to beat all these pressing teams in the bigger games. Imagine if we actually get better footballers in our defence to transition out into more efficient attacks and counters.
Liverpool and Spurs are the main two teams that press high, yes it is a valid tactic that can produce good results but we finished higher than both clubs. As for playing against the press I was a bit miffed in the games where we looked a bit lost under it. We know exactly what to expect playing Spurs and Liverpool, how can we not be prepared for it?
You also need the right players to that high pressing game as it needs to be a collective effort, looking at the Spurs side, all their attacking players press. Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Lamela, I think the reason they keep Lamela around is because he is such an aggressive player when not in possession. Because his output from an offensive point of view is poor in regards to goals/assists.
You also need the right players to that high pressing game as it needs to be a collective effort, looking at the Spurs side, all their attacking players press. Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Lamela, I think the reason they keep Lamela around is because he is such an aggressive player when not in possession. Because his output from an offensive point of view is poor in regards to goals/assists.
The only time I remember us pressing was when Lingard pressed Spurs relentlessly and won us the ball back to score.
That said last season it seemed the team had a very high line but just couldn't finish their chances and lacked the ability to penetrate (still a problem but masked a bit by individual glimpses of talent).
That said last season it seemed the team had a very high line but just couldn't finish their chances and lacked the ability to penetrate (still a problem but masked a bit by individual glimpses of talent).
All of that would be fine if he didn't despise scoring as well.