Higuain´s foul against Neuer

Dargonk

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Didn't think it was a foul at the time. If anything it should have been against the keeper. Though right decision would have been to just wave play on and award the throw in.
 

Stack

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I'm not an idiot at all. If you want to discuss football, rationally, we can do that. If you want to throw your toys out of the pram, I can do that too.
There's nothing idiotic at all about suggesting that Messi wasn't a real threat tonight, or even since the quarter finals. The occasion was just too much for him. Not a big deal, though. He's still a very good player, at club level.
Utter rubbish. Messi has had a poor season by his standards, the guy hasnt looked himself for the last 6 months or more. He looks and sounds jaded and burnt out. The occaision wasnt too much for him, its just that the timing has coincided with his being completely out of sorts. Form is temporary, class is permanent.
 

Welsh Wonder

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I seem to remember keepers are now expected to not charge with their knees up like that and just sort of jump in an upright position. It never made any sense to me, sounds completely unnatural, but I see the logic re: potential head injuries.

That said, I do like keepers pretty much owning their box and putting themselves about, if the forwards can't live with them that's their problem. No idea how it was an Higuaín foul though, clear throw in IMO.
They're generally taught to jump with a knee up to protect themselves in situations like corners and crosses, when they could easily be clattered by a player. That wasn't the case in this instance granted. I'd imagine Neuer did it because the upward thrust of the knee while jumping offers a similar boost to when outfield players use their arms to jump, gaining height.

For me in this instance it's just a throw. There's no foul on either side.

EDIT:
thank you mate

i thought it was an interesting game, and for what was at stake, that both teams took many risks,

i'd like to know the point of view of neutrals about it
It was one of the best 0-0 games I've seen, up until the goal obviously. Both sides created opportunities to win the game, and better finishing on another day could have seen Argentina win via Higuain. The match itself played as I expected really, Germany controlling the possession and Argentina staying tight until the opportunity to intercept and break came to fruition. I thought Germany afforded Messi too much space at times but they managed to close off his support and dealt with it that way. It would have been interesting if Di Maria had played, he's a massive threat even on a bad day. The better and more entertaining team won.

I thought it was a shame Argentina weren't more dynamic and exciting really (throughout the tournament), considering the potent forward line they have, but their central midfield lets them down in that respect I think.
 
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antohan

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Don't get why people get their knickers in a twist here. It's a legitimate talking point marcos is raising and it's not like he is being unreasonable about it all.
 

antohan

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They're generally taught to jump with a knee up to protect themselves in situations like corners and crosses, when they could easily be clattered by a player. That wasn't the case in this instance granted. I'd imagine Neuer did it because the upward thrust of the knee while jumping offers a similar boost to when outfield players use their arms to jump, gaining height.
Yeah, but I seem to remember a couple of years ago it was under the spotlight, much like the same natural boost you refer to with players and elbows. Not sure exactly when but I distinctly remember the argument being made by a ref that there should be no knees up or flailing arms.

It makes as much sense to me as running with your hands tied behind your back, mind.
 

Welsh Wonder

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Yeah, but I seem to remember a couple of years ago it was under the spotlight, much like the same natural boost you refer to with players and elbows. Not sure exactly when but I distinctly remember the argument being made by a ref that there should be no knees up or flailing arms.

It makes as much sense to me as running with your hands tied behind your back, mind.
I recall something like that too. I just assumed the refs were keeping an eye out to make sure the players had eyes for the ball in every challenge (with no hard 'thrusting' of the elbows as an outfield player), and would get penalised if not. No idea these days mind, it's an ordeal trying to keep up with the referee mental processes!

I feel at some point there has to be a ref meeting of some sort to establish what is and isn't allowed on the pitch and to establish consistency across the board. It's a bit of a clusterfeck with some refs punishing some things and others ignoring them. Skrtel style pulling in the box being a prime example.
 

Vato

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The keeper has every right to jump aggressively, to come out and catch the ball and take command of his own area. He got to the ball first and Higuian collided with him. No foul by either player.

If this is some sort of attempt to suggest it should have been a foul by the keeper...its very sad, tbh.
Germany were the better team on the night and throughout the whole tournament. Won it fair and square and very much deserved.
Don't agree with that, Don. I thought the Argies slightly edged it yesterday, for me at least

Germany was better throughout the tourney though, so they were the deserved winners.
 

drab.

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Neuer in a million years is that a Pk. There'd practically be one every time a corner was taken if so.

Higuain doesn't seem to even try and play the ball, hence the free kick, but the right call was a throw in.

Germany were on the end of the worst decisions on the night imho
 

ivaldo

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I just can't for the life of me see how people think that there was no foul committed by Neuer, it could easily be a red card. Was he in control of his body? Was the keeper running prior to jumping? Did he knee a player in the head? If that's acceptable then there would be bodies all over the pitch. Incredible how people genuinely defend this.
 

Siorac

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Should have been a throw-in, maybe a warning to Neuer to be a bit more careful and not lead with his knee.

Rizzoli's one big mistake was not sending Höwedes off for that shocking challenge in the first half. That was a clear red.
 

Anustart89

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I'm not sure I get the viewpoints of those saying that play should be waved on. Should a player be allowed to completely disregard the safety of the opponent, similarly to Garay earlier in the game, just because he gets the ball? Because that's how you get serious injuries.

Would Schumacher's tackle on Battiston have been okay if he had got the ball first and then followed through? Keepers are given a chance to protect themselves by leading with their knees when going for the ball, but surely there has to be some form of punishment for the keeper when he goes in to a situation as the aggressor. It's a bit like goalkeepers being allowed to punch players in the face all they want on corners regardless of whether they get the ball or not. Has anyone seen a penalty being awarded for that? When did that become allowed?

The indirect free kick is an interesting suggestion, but I can't see the justification in the rules for giving that in a situation like last night's. Maybe something could/should be done about that.
 
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rcoobc

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It's a foul.

If I launched myself to head the ball and nearly nock someone out with my knee, it's clearly dangerous play and a foul. That's basic knowledge.

It shouldn't make a difference if it's a keeper or a striker
 

montpelier

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Personally, if I was refereeing the WC Final and not wanting to be making a controversial decision (STONEWALL++ PENS ONLY) and under great pressure I'd see it as the proverbial ''coming together'' and quietly give the throw in because Neuer punches the ball out of play.

Those of you see Neuer leading with a very high knee and not caring what he hits with it, have got more bottle and better eyesight than me. And might be right too.

Could have gone either way.
 

Rado_N

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It's a blatant foul from Neuer, I'm actually surprised it's even being debated.

But then he is very popular, so I guess I shouldn't be.
 

Rep of Mancunia

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Spot on, a lot of whinging over nothing. You can tell the difference between posters that have or haven't played football.
What a load of tripe!

A lot of posters misunderstanding the point here,
The rules are inconsistent and this is just one example.
Personally I don't think it's a foul ( by Nuer) and defo not a foul by higuain - which answers the OP

But was the goalkeeper in control of his whole body at all times? No he wasn't

I love a good slide tackle, and if it's two footed with no contact made or intended it's a red card.

If a defender or striker uses their elbows in a jump and wins the ball, it's a foul, even if contact is 50/50 the one who wins the ball conceeds the foul
 

talkin2me

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No ref in the world would give a foul against the keeper. The keeper is judged differently than an outfield player. If this incident happened in the crowded penalty area after a corner, noone would bat an eyelid. I mean, how often do we see keepers throwing knees and fists at opponents while clearing a ball? You'd have to give at least 5 penalties every game. :lol:
If you don't like it you could write your congressman, or something, but that's just how football works.
 

Bazi

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It's a blatant foul from Neuer, I'm actually surprised it's even being debated.

But then he is very popular, so I guess I shouldn't be.
It has nothing to do with Neuer's popularity. Giving a penalty here would have contradicted the way goalkeepers are being treated in any other match all around the world. I've seen goalkeepers in the knockout-stage of the Uefa Champions League who punched attackers during set-pieces, missed the ball, and didn't get a penalty call against them.

The WC final stage is certainly not the right place to introduce a change to that behaviour. If you apply the same level of sensitivity you can even talk about a penalty on Kramer after that bodycheck by Garay in the 1st half.
 
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Kostur

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Not a foul, not a penalty, got the ball, fisted it away for a throw in. Refs bottled it like they do 90% with keepers when they're touched.
 

Inspire

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Higuain has 0 chance to get the ball - he just tryed to get an freekick or something else.

Some minutes earlier was the same situation on the other side, but Klose didn't go on, because he knew he would't get the ball.

Don't agree with that, Don. I thought the Argies slightly edged it yesterday, for me at least

Germany was better throughout the tourney though, so they were the deserved winners.
Argentina defended for 90% of the game with 9 players around their own box and just played on counter. They had 3 "good" chances or were in position for good chances - nothing else.
 

Lagger

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i was asking how was that Higuains foul

read the thread first, please
Don't the ref whistle when you underrun someone going for a header? The thinking is that you clearly don't want to go for the ball but make contact and take the heading player's chance to make a safe landing? I mean look at them making all kinds of flips when they're underrun. It's only a matter of time until someone breaks his neck like that. That's why I think he got the foul whistled for him.
 

Lagger

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As far as I know the keeper only gets the protection from refs in the 6 yard box. Sure, Neuer hits the ball but smashes Higuain with his knee, which in my opinion is dangerous play.
The special protection in the 6 yrd box means NBA type protection, touch him, just irritate him by being in his face and the ref will consider whistling. He's god inside his 6 yrd box. I was actually told, if he touches the ball with one finger and you flick it away, he'd get a foul against you. Not sure if the refs actually do that, but I never tried it... :P

As for the penalty box, I was also told to not engage against a GK unless I was sure I get the ball cleanly, because when in doubt, the ref will decide in favour of the GK. But then, in my time and in my low, low youth league, we never expected the keeper to actually leave his 6 yrd area, so it was not that relevant for me. :)
 

Cereal Killer

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The keeper has every right to jump aggressively, to come out and catch the ball and take command of his own area. He got to the ball first and Higuian collided with him. No foul by either player.
If this is some sort of attempt to suggest it should have been a foul by the keeper...its very sad, tbh.
Germany were the better team on the night and throughout the whole tournament. Won it fair and square and very much deserved.
He was good in the group stages became anonymous by the quarter final. He may as well have went home before the match with Switzerland because he didn't show up then or since.
Being honest, I'd say Argentina were a big let down. All that attacking talent, yet they got to the final by playing like Stoke and stifling the other teams.
I'm not an idiot at all. If you want to discuss football, rationally, we can do that. If you want to throw your toys out of the pram, I can do that too.
There's nothing idiotic at all about suggesting that Messi wasn't a real threat tonight, or even since the quarter finals. The occasion was just too much for him. Not a big deal, though. He's still a very good player, at club level.
Is this your way of initializing a rational discussion? :lol:
 
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do.ob

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The ref made so many mistakes last night, why create a thread about this particular one?

I think it should've been a throw in, but tbh I wouldn't have complained if he gave a foul against Neuer.
At least that was my opinion before I saw how Higuain looked straight at Neuer and must have seen that he'd be first to the ball.
It's also funny how he went down then got up to complain then went down again. Probably just a pathetic cnut looking to cheat his team to a penalty.
 
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nick2004

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Reckless play by Neuer. Runs to the edge of the penalty area with his knees high, with complete disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent (that's the formal definition for reckless play).

Penalty and yellow card for Neuer.
 

Cereal Killer

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I honestly can't see how it wasn't a foul by Neuer. How is this even being debated?

Thanks to Abizzz for posting this earlier.
Here are the FIFA rules:
Careless, reckless, using excessive force
“Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or
consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution.

• No further disciplinary sanction is needed if a foul is judged to be careless
“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the
danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.

• A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned
“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary
use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.

• A player who uses excessive force must be sent off
I can see any one of those three given. Since when is charging at an opponent with your knee head-high not careless or reckless? And would it have been impossible for Neuer to jump towards Higuain with his legs slightly tilted downwards? He probably would have gotten the decision anyway so I also wouldn't completely rule out the use of excessive force.

I thought that Higuain was lucky to still be on the pitch. Neuer could've fractured his neck or dislocated his jaw for all he cared.
 

do.ob

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That's just the way every single keeper around the world goes for the ball every single time, nothing excessive about it.
 

steve zizou

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Jesus, do people want it to be a non-contact sport. Neuer has to go for that ball, it's goalkeeping, it's part of defending. There was a similar incident in the first half with Romero and Klose, but Klose pulled out as he realised Romero was going to win it. Higuain had that option too. Good goalkeeping, nothing more. Don't know where the ref found a foul in it though.
Haha I remember that. He came out with a kung-fu kick no less. Would've taked Klose's head off if he had gone in to challenge. Neuer had not come for the ball, else Higuan would've been clean through...*only to shoot wide*
 

Bob Loblaw

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That's just the way every single keeper around the world goes for the ball every single time, nothing excessive about it.
It is, which is why I don't think there was anything malicious in it. Reckless on the other hand isn't even debatable - by the definition in the rules there Neuer is reckless.

I wish goalkeepers weren't allowed to get away with so much, if they can commit challenges like that with no punishment they shouldn't be getting free kicks any time they're touched.
 

Dino-Canarias

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I honestly can't see how it wasn't a foul by Neuer. How is this even being debated?

Thanks to Abizzz for posting this earlier.


I can see any one of those three given. Since when is charging at an opponent with your knee head-high not careless or reckless? And would it have been impossible for Neuer to jump towards Higuain with his legs slightly tilted downwards? He probably would have gotten the decision anyway so I also wouldn't completely rule out the use of excessive force.

I thought that Higuain was lucky to still be on the pitch. Neuer could've fractured his neck or dislocated his jaw for all he cared.
I totally second your point of view, honestly, I couldn't believe my eyes, when I saw the new thread this morning.....but I guess, some (German) fans feel like something would be taken away from their victory, if they would concede the obvious.

No need to worry, you deserved that thing anyway.
 

EnricoPalazzo

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It's not that Higuain had the Ball and Neuer went reckless into him.
No one had the Ball and both went towards the Ball. I would say if Neuer is about to get the Ball first, it is up to Higuain to hold back.

The other question is, did he punch the ball outside the box? If not that might have been red.
 

fcbforever

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Higuain saw Neuer coming for miles, he went for the challenge hoping something would happen (distracting Neuer, being given a penalty). There was something similar with Klose and Romero (although Romero even had his leg stretched) but Klose was intelligent enough to know his place.

Just look at Higuains reaction after the match, he wanted a pen so badly.
 

Cereal Killer

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I totally second your point of view, honestly, I couldn't believe my eyes, when I saw the new thread this morning.....but I guess, some (German) fans feel like something would be taken away from their victory, if they would concede the obvious.
Not sure if it's that. Still, horrific challenge I thought.
 

Bazi

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Not sure if it's that. Still, horrific challenge I thought.
The important question remains whether we want a general change in the way we treat the follow-through of goalkeepers inside the penalty area. What we saw from Neuer does not differ from what Romero did against Klose with his kung-fu kick only that Klose was smart enough to pull back. We can even discuss a possible penalty kick against Argentina when Garay won that challenge by knocking out Kramer.

In general the follow-through of goalkeepers is treated differently than the one from fieldplayers as long as they hit the ball. That's the general and widely applied line of refereeing all around the globe.

We can certainly discuss, if the application of the rules needs to be changed, but doing so in a WC final would be a horrible decision.

I personally prefer the more physical interpretation, we're a contact sports after all.
 

Cereal Killer

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The important question remains whether we want a general change in the way we treat the follow-through of goalkeepers inside the penalty area. What we saw from Neuer does not differ from what Romero did against Klose with his kung-fu kick only that Klose was smart enough to pull back. We can even discuss a possible penalty kick against Argentina when Garay won that challenge by knocking out Kramer.

In general the follow-through of goalkeepers is treated differently than the one from fieldplayers as long as they hit the ball. That's the general and widely applied line of refereeing all around the globe.

We can certainly discuss, if the application of the rules needs to be changed, but doing so in a WC final would be a horrible decision.

I personally prefer the more physical interpretation, we're a contact sports after all.
I'm not in this thread for the Romero/Klose and Garay/Kramer incidents, although I do believe that they should be subject to more interpretation.

I know that referees are more lenient when it comes to goalkeepers, but I'm not sure whether or not there's a specific section for them in Fifa's guidelines. I only know the official foul guidelines, which I mentioned in my above post.

I don't think that any of that mattered last night anyway. All I saw was Neuer going in carelessly, recklessly, and using excessive force, albeit to retrieve the ball (which he did). But it shouldn't matter. It was too dangerous. I feared the worst for Higuain.

I don't mind a physical interpretation, as long as there isn't a serious threat for the health of a player (which there clearly was in this incident). Football is a contact sport, but there should be a clearer regulation of it. (manners in which it is initiated, to what extent it is done...)
 

KingNick

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The way some Argies are acting after the match proves already why Germany is the much more deserving winner. No sportsmanship at all. Remember small final 2006.
 

Balu

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The way some Argies are acting after the match proves already why Germany is the much more deserving winner. No sportsmanship at all. Remember small final 2006.
There would be at least an equal number of bitter German idiots if we had lost the final.