Television His Dark Materials
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I can see it
Pretty much the same attitude to this series as I had to the books fwicr (or at least the abridged graphic novel version of the books I read!) - enjoyed the world building and character intrigue of the first two, but very quickly zoned out of the impenetrable lore of the third.
Just finished the third season. I thought it was fantastic.
Enjoyed the first two seasons. Can't believe the rubbish that was the third season.
What did you dislike about the third season?Enjoyed the first two seasons. Can't believe the rubbish that was the third season.
I couldn't Adam and Eve what I watched.
I understood this post as much as I understood Klopp's tactics against Brighton.
I finished it a couple of days ago, and while I think it's a notch below the first couple of seasons in terms of overall quality, it's still pretty enjoyable. Now, I don't know how much that is down to nostalgia and to the connection I feel I have with the source material - I've probably said this a few times in this thread but I loved the books as a teenager, and I always felt they'd be great on screen so I was so disappointed when they tried that first adaptation back in 2007 or something, the cast was not bad but the adaptation was all over the place. I was really glad with this BBC/HBO version, but I'd always wondered how the third book would translate to the screen - war with angels, the land of the dead, the mulefas... It seemed like it would be a really easy one to completely mess up, and to an extent I don't think they quite managed to get the magic right. There's some issues with some of the writing, like the storyline of Dr Malone and the mulefas is super important and fleshed out in the books, but just doesn't feel quite right in the show. Some of the casting was a little bit off, the guy playing Balthamos was particularly tragic. But there was some other stuff that worked quite well, and McAvoy having a bigger role in this season was great. The chemistry between Amir Wilson and Dafne Keen was also excellent, and the "key success factor" for this adaptation in my mind.
I also think that despite all its flaws (and there were quite a few), the 3rd season remained watchable throughout, and they really, really nailed the last episode. It worked super well and packed just the right emotional punches it needed.
Overall, I felt that the 3 seasons delivered, it's not a show I'll be raving about but probably one I'll watch fondly again in a few years.
Fair enough @Rooney in Paris . You obviously know a lot more about this then I do. For example I only just recently found out this was based off of books. I agree books usually give the necessary background which you just can't on screen, even successful adaptations.
Taking all this into account I found the third season watchable but ultimately preachy, which it was always going to be once the angels had manifested.
I think I missed too much and it's not really interested me enough to find out more. On to the next thing.
Taking all this into account I found the third season watchable but ultimately preachy, which it was always going to be once the angels had manifested.
There's this dark angel (Authority) but where's his power from? Who created him? Why is he so ridiculously easy to kill by two humans? Then death is just a trip to an underground lair. Which you can now escape thanks to the knife. To go where? To be at one with the universe? To un-exist? To 'heaven'? Is there heaven and hell?
Where is God in all of this? Or is that the point? They're is none? Just beings, some more powerful than others, who came about and will eventually stop existing once the universe ends?
Where is God in all of this? Or is that the point? They're is none? Just beings, some more powerful than others, who came about and will eventually stop existing once the universe ends?
I think I missed too much and it's not really interested me enough to find out more. On to the next thing.
Not having watched the third season yet, but based on books (IIRC):
Authority is the oldest 'angel'. It does not imply that he is an angel created by God, but a being that people call as angels, I think made of light or dark matter (not sure). He claims to be the God, and other angels believe him. He has not created the humans though, but the others think so. However, in the last few thousands years, he has been virtually imprisoned by his second on command, and is now weak cause of old age or something.
Nothing said about the real God (if any), or how the universe was created. The story is about rebelling against (and ultimately) killing the God, but the God it turns out to be just an ancient creature, not the creator of the universe or anything like that.
Nothing said about the real God (if any), or how the universe was created. The story is about rebelling against (and ultimately) killing the God, but the God it turns out to be just an ancient creature, not the creator of the universe or anything like that.
Yeah I understand all that, and while I "know a lot more about this" than you do cos I read the books, I do think that the show should be self-sufficient, and reading your post, I think there's definitely a case to be made for saying they skipped over too much in terms of back story/universe building (which wasn't a particularly big issue for me cos I knew the story, but is not great otherwise).
To answer some of your points (and this is from memory):
- The Authority is just one other angel, but he was the most powerful one, and he's "God"; but he became super weak over time, and has been sheltered away from the world by Metatron in that crystal cube that Will and Lyra found him in; in the book if I recall, they see him through the cube, take pity (they don't know it's the Authority), and want to help him so they open it up with the knife and he dissolves because he's millenia old and and weak; the show rushed that part somewhat I think
- When you die, you indeed go to the land of the dead, which was a miserable place no one could escape from; thanks to Lyra and Will, now when people come, if they tell the harpies their life stories, they will be able to leave, and dissolve into the world, be at one with the universe and their daemons again
- There is no heaven and hell
- When you die, you indeed go to the land of the dead, which was a miserable place no one could escape from; thanks to Lyra and Will, now when people come, if they tell the harpies their life stories, they will be able to leave, and dissolve into the world, be at one with the universe and their daemons again
- There is no heaven and hell
Finished it yesterday. Didn't like the ending at all. 3rd season just had too much exposition. We are going to war! And it's like 3 people talking in the big room. Just very meh. talked about angels being a big deal and bigging up everything and nothing really happens.
The 3rd season just became a slodge of impenetrable mythos that I ultimately just didn’t care about at all…. Granted it was a decent stab at a book adaptation, but a slodge of impenetrable mythos is a lot easier to digest in a book.
Yeah I agree there, and actually I reread the books a couple of years ago and had one of those realisations that it’s a YA book and going back as an adult you realise there’s many flaws.
That being said it will always hold a special place for me as the way Lyra and Wills personal story ends with each other was probably my first “tragic” ending between characters of my age that I could relate to, it’s always stuck with me how cruel it felt when I was at a certain age.
Yeah the actual low key personal ending for them was good.
This. I remember reading those pages as a teenager and realising what was coming, and refusing to believe it and feeling really distraught by it for a while afterwards
I'm pretty sure the emotional impact for anyone not having read the books, and the connection with the main characters, would probably not be so strong, which is ultimately a bit of a failing from the adaptation, but I have to say I was happy with how they finalised things - and the casting of Lyra and Will was really, really good.
It's what makes the final book work too. The final book is pretty high concept I'd say and is dealing with all manner of philosophical ideas and is running on several often fairly odd narrative strands some of which are exposition heavy and lots of significant events happen "off camera". It needed another edit at least, something I read Pullman conceding, and was always going to struggle to be adapted to screen in a way that didn't highlight these flaws, but it's Will and Lyra and their hearbreaking ending that holds it all together and makes it work. I think the TV show, as you say, adapted it about as well as is possible in that medium but it couldn't mask the book's challenges.
Most books don’t work adapted straight. In fact most media of any kind that’s good obviously works best in the medium it’s explicitly written for (see the exact same convo in The Last of Us thread!)
And tbf I haven’t actually read the Pullman books - only the short graphic novels based on them. But even then I found the message quite muddled… I mean the build up in the first 2 instalments is all about proving the magisterium is wrong to base their society around religion (hence why the film adaptation was notoriously wrecked by Hollywood refusing to go with such an overtly anti-religious message) and about Azreal proving that dust invalidated faith because physics or something… but then when you do get down to the actual proper mythology stuff, it turns out there is a God, and actual angels, and a heaven and a purgatory and an Adam and Eve (sort of!?) etc… Only they’re all just a bit shitter or somewhat different than we think. So I was kinda left thinking…’okay, but what was the real issue here again? It didn’t really prove them wrong. And how did it affect any of the other worlds that weren’t aware of it?’
Im sure there are answers to this, but they didn’t come across well in either of the versions I’ve seen. It was just a Narnia-esque battle for some nebulously good cause that our main characters were onside with, and then it ended.
But hey, there was a lot of decent stuff before that. And books are much better at explaining away that kind of stuff. And as far as the TV adaptation went, the Logan girl was very good. Even if she’s also slightly terrifying.
And tbf I haven’t actually read the Pullman books - only the short graphic novels based on them. But even then I found the message quite muddled… I mean the build up in the first 2 instalments is all about proving the magisterium is wrong to base their society around religion (hence why the film adaptation was notoriously wrecked by Hollywood refusing to go with such an overtly anti-religious message) and about Azreal proving that dust invalidated faith because physics or something… but then when you do get down to the actual proper mythology stuff, it turns out there is a God, and actual angels, and a heaven and a purgatory and an Adam and Eve (sort of!?) etc… Only they’re all just a bit shitter or somewhat different than we think. So I was kinda left thinking…’okay, but what was the real issue here again? It didn’t really prove them wrong. And how did it affect any of the other worlds that weren’t aware of it?’
Im sure there are answers to this, but they didn’t come across well in either of the versions I’ve seen. It was just a Narnia-esque battle for some nebulously good cause that our main characters were onside with, and then it ended.
But hey, there was a lot of decent stuff before that. And books are much better at explaining away that kind of stuff. And as far as the TV adaptation went, the Logan girl was very good. Even if she’s also slightly terrifying.