How bad are our midfield options really?

[He'sRaldo]

As we all know, formations dictate the ease of the players' jobs.


For instance, playing a 3 at the back formation helps defenders look better, and also makes wingbacks look more secure defensively than they might be with 2 at the back. Playing a formation with 2 strikers makes the lives of both strikers easier than if they had to operate as the lone man. And more pertinent to the topic of this thread, playing a midfield with 3 players generally makes the midfielders jobs easier than playing with 2.


We all know that for the last 5+ years our managers' preferred formation has been a 4-2-3-1, with Ole's being especially top heavy when Bruno goes forward. We also know that our midfielders are all maligned in one way or the other. Fred, Scott, Pogba, Donny, and Matic all have flaws in a midfield 2 that are constantly highlighted, and Ole has eventually settled on the infamous "McFred" midfield to give the best balance.


Looking at the qualities of our midfielders, I'm a fan. They all bring different things to the table, but unfortunately none are all-rounders. I reckon all of them fit very well into specific roles in a midfield 3, but none fit seamlessly into a 2, and their flaws tend to be highlighted more.


My question is, given that our formation is very top heavy and midfield light, how much does that affect our perception of our midfielders especially when comparing with other top midfielders who typically play in a midfield 3 (and often with a false 9 to boot). Are our midfield options really as bad as popular opinion may seem? And crucially, can we challenge with the midfield we have, or is signing a new all-round midfielder imperative?

 

[Devil may care]

There's no system where either of McFred should be starters at Manchester United, they are squad players. Pogba only works consistently in a midfield 3 where the other 2 midfielders offer plenty of defensive work, and Matic is past it. Basically midfield is the weakest area of the squad.

 

[He'sRaldo]

There's no system where either of McFred should be starters at Manchester United, they are squad players. Pogba only works consistently in a midfield 3 where the other 2 midfielders offer plenty of defensive work, and Matic is past it. Basically midfield is the weakest area of the squad.

True based on what they've shown. But what they've shown for the most part has been in a system that's more difficult than usual.

The players who to you are of the required quality, how do you reckon they'd perform in our setup? I think it would be difficult for most midfielders.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

McFred aren’t first XI material at this point. Pogba and Bruno obviously are. So the solution isn’t another all around mid (unless Pogba leaves), it’s a top class DM. Something we don’t have in the side and haven’t since early Matic.

 

[Devil may care]

True based on what they've shown. But what they've shown for the most part has been in a system that's more difficult than usual.

The players who to you are of the required quality, how do you reckon they'd perform in our setup? I think it would be difficult for most midfielders.

I don't think the system effects McFred, they are both average box to box midfielders, they aren't positionally good enough defensively and if they are to play as the #8 in the double pivot they aren't creative enough, I think if we didn’t have Bruno and played a 3 man midfield with a top class #6 and Pogba, either could fill in the #8 workhorse role to a degree, but that's not an option as Bruno is arguably our main man.

 

[Abraxas]

I think our midfield could actually be good enough to win a title if we had superb players upfront and maybe another centre back that is top quality. If you have real quality and depth up front and ruthlessness it hides a multitude of sins. I think Liverpool actually showed this to a tee. They had a functioning midfield that was perfect for how they played, but it wasn't blessed with individuals that top teams would be queuing round the block to sign. It's fairly easy to imagine that in other circumstances those midfield players would not look so good. But they did have an outstanding front 3 and a cohesive unit.

It is probably a lack of quality and also the way we are functioning as an overall team that has us some way off a title, in short, there are quite a few areas we are not quite good enough in. It is certainly not all about the midfield.

However when the manager is looking at areas that are holding us back you probably do have to approach that in a somewhat balanced way. At least this is what most managers will do. It wouldn't make sense to completely neglect this area.

As for the setup, I don't particularly think we are asking too much of these guys. Bruno does help out but I don't think you constantly want your creative force expending energy in the wrong areas all the time. There should be no practical reason why 2 deeper players cannot create balance even if we have struggled to achieve that thus far. This is a tried and tested setup for many teams, and you always have to be careful not to confuse flaws in the setup with the flaws of the individuals.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Our midfielders are decent, but I think we lack a holding midfielder. A Carick, Jorginho type to dictate play.

Fred is regular for Bazils world class squad so if he is good enough for them he is good enough for us.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Liverpool won the CL and Premier league with a midfield that’s nowhere near as good as ours, but as someone has already mentioned, when midfield lacks talent or as in our case balance then you need two of your forwards scoring 25-40 goals a season

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Fred is a upper-midtable player, McTomimay is a lower-midtable player. We could get away with starting one (preferably Fred) but starting both limits us massively. A midfield 3 of Bruno, McT & Fred has zero ball retention & is easily bypassed.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Liverpool won the CL and Premier league with a midfield that’s nowhere near as good as ours, but as someone has already mentioned, when midfield lacks talent or as in our case balance then you need two of your forwards scoring 25-40 goals a season

Fabinho, Henderson & Wijnaldum is a vastly superior midfield to McTominay, Fred & Bruno.

Our midfielders literally can’t make simple passes.

 

[Bastian]

Not bad, just not great. We're still playing squad players in our first XI.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Fabinho, Henderson & Wijnaldum is a vastly superior midfield to McTominay, Fred & Bruno.

Our midfielders literally can’t make simple passes.

Fabinho (who for 6 months people called a waste) , Henderson (who before Klopp arrived was a meme player) , Wijnaldun who if we’d signed would have been viewed as the glazers letting down the manager, same with Milner. Those are better than Bruno, Pogba, DVB, Fred, McTomminay ? I don’t think so, I think Klopp would get better results with our CM options at Liverpool than he did with the options he had when he won the CL and league with Liverpool

 

[krentz]

Liverpool won the CL and Premier league with a midfield that’s nowhere near as good as ours, but as someone has already mentioned, when midfield lacks talent or as in our case balance then you need two of your forwards scoring 25-40 goals a season

Are you telling me Henderson, Fabinho, and wijnaldum are inferior players to McT, Fred, and Matic ?

 

[tjb]

Fabinho (who for 6 months people called a waste) , Henderson (who before Klopp arrived was a meme player) , Wijnaldun who if we’d signed would have been viewed as the glazers letting down the manager, same with Milner. Those are better than Bruno, Pogba, DVB, Fred, McTomminay ? I don’t think so, I think Klopp would get better results with our CM options at Liverpool than he did with the options he had when he won the CL and league with Liverpool

The thing is, they can do things that our midfielders can't do technically. They aren't standout players ( bar Fabinho , who was forced into CB for that time). Wijnaldum has better touch, dribbling and passing ability than our midfielders bar Pogba. He is relatively press resistant. Fabinho is still one of the best holding midfielders in the world. He has strength and balance on the ball, which allows him to also be press resistant. Additionally, his off the ball movement in helping Liverpool's build up/ ball retention in the defensive third of the pitch, allows Liverpool to build up their attacks. Henderson's off the ball movement is also good and he is a much better passer than Fred/Mctominay and Matic.

If we sign a new midfielder that has some of these qualities, we would have a potentially title winning midfield, but for now, its our true hinderance for me.

 

[edcunited1878]

There are two things when you're assessing the central midfield of United.

1) United only have four orthodox central midfielders. On an individual basis, they are a pretty good group. But they have their major flaws such as...Fred and McTominay are not good enough with the ball and just not good enough overall. Name title winning central midfielders at United and they fall behind them. And before you point to Cleverley, remember who is partner was (Carrick) and their function/role within the team, which is extremely important. Matic was a top player once, but he's clearly past it. Matic in his prime or even just a version of him that has a little bit more legs is head and shoulders better than Fred and McTominay, yet you wouldn't classify Matic's prime as world class. Pogba is a top class player, but when you figure in the fact that the PL is a much more competitive league that he's traditionally been at and the more ground he is responsible for (i.e. defensive work and maintaining balance within the central area of the pitch), he's too vulnerable.

2) Functionality of the central midfield. City, Chelsea, Leicester, Liverpool. Those four clubs are the main Top 4/title challengers for the most part.

They either operate with three central midfielders (City and Liverpool) or 3 CBs with 2 CMs (Leicester and Chelsea). I'd say that City have a great balance between their 3 CMs in defense/attack/closing down and pressing. Liverpool CMs are all about pressing, ball retention, high workrate, and making sure their fullbacks can maintain high positions to supplement the attack. Leicester and Chelsea have good defensive foundations and functional CMs. It's harder to break them down through the middle due to a 3rd CB almost acting like a sweeper. But they are good in possession as well and use the width of the wingbacks well.

So United are the only top 5 club that uses two traditional CMs in the middle of the park without the benefit of 3 CBs. So what does that mean? They have to bring more to the team individually and as a functioning pair. It's a big ask.

Have to cover the ground around them, but also have to connect the middle of the pitch with the attack (usually wide or with Bruno's help). Press and close down around the pitch and win the ball back higher up the pitch. Only Pogba is able to hurt opponents anywhere from the middle of the park. But the higher he goes up the pitch, the more isolated his partner is and an opposing midfielder can run off Pogba in transition.

Ole struck a balance with Pogba as the left forward and McFred in central midfield in some big games. It worked for the most part.

For what the total ask is, United's midfield is clearly missing a player who has the technical ability of Matic but the agility/work rate of either Fred or McTominay. Carrick wasn't exactly fast or slow, but his reading of the game, positioning, and anticipation plus his passing ability would be a tremendous player in the current United side who would easily started ahead of McTominay and Fred.

 

[owlo]

If you play a 1 man midfield you get overrun. whoever you sign, if they are playing alongside 2 playmakers in Pogba and Bruno, they will get overrun. It’s that simple. Teams will simply target and overload the area, A prime redondo or Keane wouldn’t help.

 

[United in sin]

Liverpool won the CL and Premier league with a midfield that’s nowhere near as good as ours, but as someone has already mentioned, when midfield lacks talent or as in our case balance then you need two of your forwards scoring 25-40 goals a season

You think Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho are nowhere near as good as our spine in Fred and McTominay?

 

[hobbers]

None of our midfielders are good enough to be starting in any midfield configuration in a title winning side. And when I say midfielders I mean those who are capable of playing in the infamous double pivot.

VdB has had an atrocious season, even allowing for him being new to the club. Ole doesn't rate him. And, more importantly, he's not a midfielder. He's a number 10. If he's here next season he should be considered as one thing only - cover for Bruno. Same as Mata and Lingard.

Pogba will never be disciplined enough to play in a double pivot. When he's played there in big matches for us he's almost always gone missing and been useless. Plus he wants to leave.

Matic should have been moved on 2 seasons ago, he's finished.

McTominay is mediocre at everything but scoring the odd goal. Positionally suspect. Poor with the ball. Usually easily bullied and cowed by high pressing teams. Fred is similar, but would probably be the one who would keep his place at least initially if there was a new arrival. Fred would also be the one I would say could play most comfortably in a midfield 3 with Bruno and a more defensively minded midfielder. But that's only because of his impressive work rate and relationship with Bruno. In terms of ability he's almost as poor as McTominay.

 

[r0663664]

A Kante or similar player will do wonder to this team. Ole should get a midfielder who has a Roll Royce engine that do the simple stuff like winning the ball back and make himself available to receive a pass, release the ball and move again.

 

[SirReginald]

Our midfielders are decent, but I think we lack a holding midfielder. A Carick, Jorginho type to dictate play.

Fred is regular for Bazils world class squad so if he is good enough for them he is good enough for us.

Im sorry, when was the last time Brazil had a world class midfield? It certainly isn’t now.

Comparatively speaking. Compare the center midfield to Europe’s elite and it’s probably not even top 10. For those suggesting it’s fine to win the title, maybe, but it would have to be a hard carry from your front line.

Apart from Pogba you don’t have a player that can take a game by the scruff of its neck and win a game. If it’s going tits up, it’ll likely stay tits up. It’s not even Bruno’s quality, although I don’t consider him a center midfielder.

You need a nasty chunt in your midfield to give it a little grit. A veratti. Someone you know will get stuck in and also windup the opposition. But also have the ability to dictate the flow. Sign that type of player and you would be considered one of the favorites.

Right now you have a decent front 4 but still no real depth to change a game. An average midfield (with little depth) and a fairly solid back 4. Like the Europa final, if even your manager has little faith in the bench to make a difference then you won’t have a squad that can finish top over 38 games. It’s that simple.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Are you telling me Henderson, Fabinho, and wijnaldum are inferior players to McT, Fred, and Matic ?

You think Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho are nowhere near as good as our spine in Fred and McTominay?

Maybe you’re too young too remember Henderson’s reputation before Klopp arrived, he is not better or worse than Fred or McTominay.

Don’t forget we have Bruno, Pogba, DVB,
When they won the league and CL Liverpool had Milner.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

A Kante or similar player will do wonder to this team. Ole should get a midfielder who has a Roll Royce engine that do the simple stuff like winning the ball back and make himself available to receive a pass, release the ball and move again.

Verratti

 

[RkkMan]

Liverpool won the CL and Premier league with a midfield that’s nowhere near as good as ours, but as someone has already mentioned, when midfield lacks talent or as in our case balance then you need two of your forwards scoring 25-40 goals a season

The signing of Fabinho added a different level balance to the team. Henderson and Wijnaldum weren't all that but Fabinho was a class player at Monaco and translated it still at Liverpool. There's a reason why a lot of Utd fans were furious when we chose Matic instead
You can twist things as much as you like but the quality of Pogba/Bruno won't be enough to win us big trophies without a top class DM behind them

 

[Tallis]

They are not as bad as people make them out to be. Fred is a pretty legitimate DM who’s workrate and defensive numbers would put him in a very high percentile of DMs but has tendency to make mistakes. Fred also starts a bunch of our counterattacks with through balls. McT is more solid than Fred and is a great option to have although he didn’t have Fred’s defensive output. Both can have very important roles in a title winning team but we need to add some quality.

I don’t subscribe to this theory that we only need a quality DM and then we can play Pogba and Bruno as a MF in a 433.

I do think we need to add a quality MF - don’t really think it matters if it’s a 6 or 8 as long as he is very good, and we can try to identify the partner either from one of our current team or from outside next season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

As we all know, formations dictate the ease of the players' jobs.


For instance, playing a 3 at the back formation helps defenders look better, and also makes wingbacks look more secure defensively than they might be with 2 at the back. Playing a formation with 2 strikers makes the lives of both strikers easier than if they had to operate as the lone man. And more pertinent to the topic of this thread, playing a midfield with 3 players generally makes the midfielders jobs easier than playing with 2.


We all know that for the last 5+ years our managers' preferred formation has been a 4-2-3-1, with Ole's being especially top heavy when Bruno goes forward. We also know that our midfielders are all maligned in one way or the other. Fred, Scott, Pogba, Donny, and Matic all have flaws in a midfield 2 that are constantly highlighted, and Ole has eventually settled on the infamous "McFred" midfield to give the best balance.


Looking at the qualities of our midfielders, I'm a fan. They all bring different things to the table, but unfortunately none are all-rounders. I reckon all of them fit very well into specific roles in a midfield 3, but none fit seamlessly into a 2, and their flaws tend to be highlighted more.


My question is, given that our formation is very top heavy and midfield light, how much does that affect our perception of our midfielders especially when comparing with other top midfielders who typically play in a midfield 3 (and often with a false 9 to boot). Are our midfield options really as bad as popular opinion may seem? And crucially, can we challenge with the midfield we have, or is signing a new all-round midfielder imperative?

We finished second with the midfield we have. Our problems have been center defence and right winger. The two positions that ensured we had zero chance of winning the league 2 years running.

I marvel people keep insisting we should waste resources on a department that doesn't need it.

 

[gajender]

We finished second with the midfield we have. Our problems have been center defence and right winger. The two positions that ensured we had zero chance of winning the league 2 years running.

I marvel people keep insisting we should waste resources on a department that doesn't need it.

I really hope for you to be correct but I have serious reservations about it to be honest our midfield is as much of a problem area for us as our defense and attack if not more atleast in our attack and defence we have players who can play at world class level occasionally but same can't be said about our midfield .

Unless Solskjaer is braver and pair Pogba with one of the Midfield options we won't be doing much next season either.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I really hope for you to be correct but I have serious reservations about it to be honest our midfield is as much of a problem area for us as our defense and attack if not more atleast in our attack and defence we have players who can play at world class level occasionally but same can't be said about our midfield .

Unless Solskjaer is braver and pair Pogba with one of the Midfield options we won't be doing much next season either.

Ole has been forced to play 2 battlers in center midfield because of our problem center defence. I constantly shake my head in disbelief when people prefer to imagine it's because "the midfielders 'are not good enough to protect it" or "ole isn't brave" instead. As City and pool showed: You can have prime Fernandinho and prime Fabinho and they STILL won't be able to protect a problem center defensive pair.


It's funny how people just prefer to pretend Fred and mcTominay "are shit". And pretend our defence (which was a terminal issue all year) and our attack (which malfunctioned most of the season) is what "carried them" to second place. Rather than the work of our midfield. Especially 2 battlers constantly forced to carry a problem defence whilst being expected to affect things further upfield. Which isn't their natural strength.

 

[KD6-3.7]

In my opinion Fred and McTominay are the worst starting midfielders for any top 6 club. We simply cannot go into next season with them two being starters.

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

Im sorry, when was the last time Brazil had a world class midfield? It certainly isn’t now.

Comparatively speaking. Compare the center midfield to Europe’s elite and it’s probably not even top 10. For those suggesting it’s fine to win the title, maybe, but it would have to be a hard carry from your front line.

I'd say a midfield of Casemiro / Fabinho / Fred / Paqueta is arguably world class. They do play a double pivot and Tite has been defensively solid since he took over; definitely top 10.

 

[Trequarista10]

If we had a Carrick/Alonso type alongside Fred or McTominay we'd be well set, and each would likely compliment the other and bring the best out of them.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Donny is a bit of a black box to me, not sure how good he really is and what his best position might be.

We probably wait to see if Pogba extends his contract and if we can plan our midfield options around him or if we need to build something new. If he stays I think we need one worldclass CDM and play him behind Pogba and Bruno.
McTominay should play a bit further up the pitch where also Pogbas best position is.
Maybe in some games a pivot with Bruno, McTominay, Donny and Fred might work, but I like to see Sancho and Rashford on the wings and a number 9 so that would not be my preferred formation.

 

[Steve 007]

Bruno is tired but has arguably being the best attacking midfielder/10 in the league. It’s close between him and De Bryune, yes Grealish has great ability too. Bruno however has the stats to prove he was virtually on his own. Pogba can be rubbish or absolutely brilliant but I think the Euro has shown if he thinks he can win he’ll raise his game. McT has scored a few this season and actually showed he’s an energetic and decent back up midfielder. In the champions league a few years back he showed there’s potential there and he’s slowly building. We haven’t seen anywhere near VDB’s best, I’m not sure if we will but there is definitely a good player in there. Matic unfortunately hasn’t got the legs anymore and Mata is bit part at best. Fred buzzes around, annoys the opposition and breaks up play with a lot of energy but I honestly can’t think of a Brazilian with a worse shot ever.

 

[devilish]

I think that this team is screaming for a top DM. Think of how much good a prime Roy Keane would do to this team. He would help defence greatly and he'd allow Pogba/VDB to play their own game. I think a top quality DM is more important then Varane's signing.

 

[Escobar]

We see it again this summer - a strong midfield is the differentiator between winning or losing games. And our current midfield is just not strong enough. Just look back and see where we come from in terms of midfielders and where we are now...

 

[Ish]

Our midfielders just don’t compliment each other, which is a problem and means we often lack balance in midfield. McFred bring much of the same traits and Pogba & Bruno are best deployed in the same position, as Pogba is well capable of playing in a midfield 2, but not over the course of a full season as he lacks the discipline IMO. At best, one of McFred can make a starting spot their own, but ideally both should be squad players.

 

[bsCallout]

I don't agree with others saying X isn't a starter. I think either McT or Fred could start week in week out in a title winning team.

Our problem is we don't have that CM that we say 'they have to be on the team sheet'. VdB, Fred, McT even Pogba are all players you think could be really important for us, if they are next to someone better. I'm talking myself out of wanting Camavinga based on this.

When Keane played, we could pretty much put anyone half decent next to him, then it was the same with Carrick.

 

[bsCallout]

We see it again this summer - a strong midfield is the differentiator between winning or losing games. And our current midfield is just not strong enough. Just look back and see where we come from in terms of midfielders and where we are now...

You could pretty much say that about any position. A strong defence is the differentiation, a strong front line is the differentiation. Some would say a strong GK is the differentiator.

 

[meamth]

Fred is a upper-midtable player, McTomimay is a lower-midtable player. We could get away with starting one (preferably Fred) but starting both limits us massively. A midfield 3 of Bruno, McT & Fred has zero ball retention & is easily bypassed.

Fred is upper midtable player?? I've read enough.

Not many player in the world can run as much as him, his work rate, and tenacity. If you fail to realize the type of midfielder he is, I'm very disappointed.

Box to box midfielder is the popular type now in football, Fred is that player.

 

[meamth]

Do everyone actually believe Mctominay can't get any better? Really.

 

[padzilla]

There isn't another club with aspirations of winning the league or challenging for the CL that would start either McTominay or Fred on a regular basis, never mind both of them.
To be fair they are both honest lads who can put a shift in and bring something in terms of energy.
However, we really need someone who can collect the ball from the defenders and distribute it higher up the pitch without constantly giving it away or having to make so many blockbusting tackles because they have read the play late or completely incorrectly.
If you look at the most successful teams they always have a wealth of midfield options, whereas we do not.