How bad are our midfield options really?

[Born2Lose]

For me, United need to get back to winning the premier league and domestic cups before worrying about the CL.

I'd be looking to get rid of Pogba asap and buying some PL quality midfielders, I liked the talk earlier in the season about a possible bid for Tielemans but that seems to have fizzled out. I've not been particularly impressed with Declan Rice watching him for England, but he is still young.

Matic is finished and needs replacing, if it's Garner getting a shot I'm fine with that.

McT in an ideal world for me is a bench player who starts easier games.

Fred is a hard decision, I have a love/hate relationship with the guy. There's a noticeable lack of urgency in the midfield to me when he doesn't play, but his recklessness at times when he does has me tearing my hair out. Amazes me with a guy like Carrick at the club how he hasn't had a word with Fred about trying to add some composure to his game.

 

[laughtersassassin]

If you want Pogba then you play him in free role of advanced midfielder alongside no 6 and box to box. Or play him with Matuidi/Rabiot & Kante.

Ole seems to like all rounder midfielder in his double pivot.

Fred is far from all round.

Excels at a few things very limited at others.

All I know is For Me I'd take a midfield of say Rice and Pogba over a midfield of Rice and Fred any day.

Fred is too limited for the box to box role for me but unfortunately he isn't a DM either.

 

[hubbuh]

They are shite. I can’t wait for the ones who are desperate to get Pogba gone to embrace McFred for the season.

I reckon by week three they will be blaming Ole.

You know times are bad when you're inventing non existent arguments to argue against. No one that wants Pogba gone is dead happy with the McFred midfield you wally.

 

[Lentwood]

They're not "bad" players, they are above average at what they do. I think we need to be careful sometimes when comparing them with the likes of Tielemanns and Ndidi because both play for a team who generally have less possession than their opponents. The problem we have with McFred is that neither are world-class 'movers of the ball'. Fred in particular often takes extra touches or is just too slow when compared with a real world-class 'mover of the ball' like a Scholes, a Pirlo or a Busquets.

The result is too many sideways passes because they missed the brief opportunity to go forward or too many passes in general, for example, taking four passes to get from left wing to right wing when it could have taken two. Scholes was a master at that. Receive the ball from one flank, head up and ping straight to our other winger. That created one vs one opportunities and pulled our opponents out of their shape as they scrambled across. We just don't have that right now. They're not the easiest players to come across but with our pace and trickery in attack, a Pirlo/Scholes/Lampard/Gerrard/Carrick style passer would take us to the next level

 

[MadDogg]

All I know is For Me I'd take a midfield of say Rice and Pogba over a midfield of Rice and Fred any day.

I wouldn't want either. Nobody can play next to Pogba in a midfield two IMO (not consistently anyway), and Rice would be a poor partner for Fred. However I would take the right partner for Fred (a playmaker who is also solid defensively) ahead of any combination of Pogba in a midfield two.

The links to Camavinga are interesting. If it happens I'm not sure he'd be the right type of partner for Fred, but in the short term it should be an improvement over McFred and in the long term Camavinga would (in theory) be the Fred upgrade who would probably want the same type of partner next to him.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Fred is far from all round.

Excels at a few things very limited at others.

All I know is For Me I'd take a midfield of say Rice and Pogba over a midfield of Rice and Fred any day.

Fred is too limited for the box to box role for me but unfortunately he isn't a DM either.

Do you still not understand why I didn't post Rice but I posted Casemiro, Kimmich, and Camavinga pictures even after that I said ''all rounder''?

 

[laughtersassassin]

Do you still not understand why I didn't post Rice but I posted Casemiro, Kimmich, and Camavinga pictures even after that I said ''all rounder''?

I still disagree that he'd be good enough with them

 

[dal]

We need one midfielder at least.

IF VDB stays then I feel he’ll be coached to play in that midfield two, he’ll need to put some timber on.

 

[RUCK4444]

Most who want Pogba to be sold (I'm probably in that camp as I don't think he suits a midfield two) want him replaced with somebody else in the midfield, not to just settle with McTominay-Fred.

Let’s see A) if we bother replacing him and B) if they see anywhere near as good as Pogba

Clue on the latter (they won’t be.)

 

[RUCK4444]

You know times are bad when you're inventing non existent arguments to argue against. No one that wants Pogba gone is dead happy with the McFred midfield you wally.

I see a LOT of posters wanting him gone without mentioning a single replacement.

Fact is, we will be worse off once he leaves. You won’t find a player of his abilities offensively and we already need a DM regardless of whether Pogba stays or goes, so we will need two midfielders if he leaves.

Also fixing the DM issue properly would ironically bring out the best in Pogba. Wally.

 

[hubbuh]

I see a LOT of posters wanting him gone without mentioning a single replacement.

Fact is, we will be worse off once he leaves. You won’t find a player of his abilities offensively and we already need a DM regardless of whether Pogba stays or goes, so we will need two midfielders if he leaves.

Also fixing the DM issue properly would ironically bring out the best in Pogba. Wally.

What sort of point is that? you want people to know which players could feasibly replace Pogba? That's ridiculous. Obviously they want him replacing. You can think it best for Pogba to leave without knowing exactly what the future without him looks like.

You keep espousing your own opinion and stating it as fact and it's quite hilarious. Someone made a post recently showing that we had a better win percentage last season when we started without Pogba than we did with him. I put that down to Ole not trusting Pogba, Bruno, and one of Fred or McTominay to play in a midfield 3 much, which I would have liked to have seen a bit more. Still, being the most talented player we have doesn't automatically make him the most useful or effective to the system our manager uses. It's taken us to a place where he's shunted out on the wing just to get him on the pitch. With Sancho now here and Diallo a year older, there's no place for him out wide.

There's absolutely feck all guarantee of the bottom point happening, just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so. Pogba has shined brightest in a midfield 3. He isn't going to play in a midfield 3 under Ole, who is clearly building a team set up to play 4-2-3-1. Let him go somewhere that'll allow him to play in a midfield 3, I'm sure few people will be surprised if and when he thrives. It's not happening here though, so it's best we accept that and get someone in who excels in a midfield 2. I really like Pogba and wished his career with us had gone a different a way but it is what it is. It's time for both parties to move on, he's clearly ready and wanting to go.

 

[Escobar]

Compared to our midfields of the past, we are poor. We used to have world class midfielders, now we have Pogba who is good on his day. Thats it

 

[RUCK4444]

What sort of point is that? you want people to know which players could feasibly replace Pogba? That's ridiculous. Obviously they want him replacing. You can think it best for Pogba to leave without knowing exactly what the future without him looks like.

You keep espousing your own opinion and stating it as fact and it's quite hilarious. Someone made a post recently showing that we had a better win percentage last season when we started without Pogba than we did with him. I put that down to Ole not trusting Pogba, Bruno, and one of Fred or McTominay to play in a midfield 3 much, which I would have liked to have seen a bit more. Still, being the most talented player we have doesn't automatically make him the most useful or effective to the system our manager uses. It's taken us to a place where he's shunted out on the wing just to get him on the pitch. With Sancho now here and Diallo a year older, there's no place for him out wide.

There's absolutely feck all guarantee of the bottom point happening, just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so. Pogba has shined brightest in a midfield 3. He isn't going to play in a midfield 3 under Ole, who is clearly building a team set up to play 4-2-3-1. Let him go somewhere that'll allow him to play in a midfield 3, I'm sure few people will be surprised if and when he thrives. It's not happening here though, so it's best we accept that and get someone in who excels in a midfield 2. I really like Pogba and wished his career with us had gone a different a way but it is what it is. It's time for both parties to move on, he's clearly ready and wanting to go.

If your going to make a point, at least back your own opinion with an alternative to ‘the problem.’

I don’t claim my opinion to be fact, I say it like I see it. Which is better than ‘get rid of the poisonous clown, he and his agent want to be elsewhere anyway’ and then follow that up with nothing as a means of a way forward.

You get exactly the same posters here saying ‘Ole is nowhere near good enough, get rid’ when there is absolutely no mention of a replacement and the majority of the time there is no quick fix improvement waiting in the wings as a manager.

I couldn’t care less if you agree with my opinion bud, at least I’m willing to back my opinion with what I believe will or won’t happen after we let the player go.
As I’ve said, when we let Pogba go and fail to adequately replace him (you still haven’t given any names) then I expect same posters to blame Ole when McFred are huffing and puffing their way through next season.

The stats you mention prove nothing, it was an injury hampered season for him. How many of his lost balls (people’s main gripe) lead to actual goals against and how many key passes and assists does he provide at the same time, because that’s exactly what we will miss in his absence and fail to replace. Quote me.

Not to mention the whole fanbase will put extreme pressure on Bruno to provide a huge amount of creativity game in game out.

 

[MadDogg]

Let’s see A) if we bother replacing him and B) if they see anywhere near as good as Pogba

Clue on the latter (they won’t be.)

They almost certainly won't be as good an individual player as Pogba. But being better in a midfield two is a completely different story. Pogba in his entire career has never been consistently good in a midfield two. He can do a few games here and there, but he simply doesn't suit the role. Especially with wingers who play as out-and-out attackers instead of dropping back to help the midfield (which is why it works a bit better for France).

 

[Scottynaldinho]

No matter who we sign for our midfield. Ole's style makes it impossible for the midfield to impact or control the game. He likes the defenders to keep most of our possession and bypass midfield altogether if they can, with midfielders making forward runs when they have the ball.

The point is playing in this system, whoever joins in the middle won't be as good as they can be.

 

[He'sRaldo]

No matter who we sign for our midfield. Ole's style makes it impossible for the midfield to impact or control the game. He likes the defenders to keep most of our possession and bypass midfield altogether if they can, with midfielders making forward runs when they have the ball.

The point is playing in this system, whoever joins in the middle won't be as good as they can be.

Agree. The issue isn't even that Ole sets up to bypass midfield, it's that his midfield setup naturally results in them being bypassed.

These days a good midfield should have at least 2 players that can nullify you defensively, and 2 players that can harm you offensively. However, with McFred we only have the former, and if Pogba plays in the middle we have neither.

If we are to continue with the 2 DM setup then we'll need 2 pretty beastly all rounders with high energy and stamina, as well as playmaking abilities. Or we could just bypass the midfield entirely, play direct/counterattacking football, and see if it takes us anywhere.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I still disagree that he'd be good enough with them

Players who suit double pivot system is basically better for the team than players who don't suit double pivot system.

 

[GueRed]

Compared to our midfields of the past, we are poor. We used to have world class midfielders, now we have Pogba who is good on his day. Thats it

I just want Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs back I miss having genuine world class midfielders. Current bunch are poor in comparison.

Pogba is a world class talent but too inconsistent a performer to be considered a world class footballer for me.

Ole's got his work cut out.

 

[Escobar]

I just want Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs back I miss having genuine world class midfielders. Current bunch are poor in comparison.

Pogba is a world class talent but too inconsistent a performer to be considered a world class footballer for me.

Ole's got his work cut out.

So far behind, so no wonder we don't really compete

 

[laughtersassassin]

I don't see how we can not buy a DM? Like let's think about it.

So our options for the pivot/two are as follows:
Fred (Not good enough to be starting every week if going for a title)
McTominay (Improving but again is he good enough to start every week if going for a title)
Matic (Way past it and really should never be starting ideally)

Then we have the outside options:
Pogba (Imo still our best player in the midfield 2 all things considered but he is better on the left of a 3 or where we play him now)

VDB (Really don't see him being able to play in a two with the above options if Pogba supposedly can't)


So essentially we are going into the season with 2 players to play the 2 CM spots, that's madness.

For this reason alone Pogba will have to start playing CM again.

The ideal thing to do is for the club is to go out and get a DM. That greatly betters our options as both Pogba and VDB should be better beside true DMs.

After such a good window do we really want to risk letting such a flaw in the side potentially derail our season?

 

[croadyman]

I don't see how we can not buy a DM? Like let's think about it.

So our options for the pivot/two are as follows:
Fred (Not good enough to be starting every week if going for a title)
McTominay (Improving but again is he good enough to start every week if going for a title)
Matic (Way past it and really should never be starting ideally)

Then we have the outside options:
Pogba (Imo still our best player in the midfield 2 all things considered but he is better on the left of a 3 or where we play him now)

VDB (Really don't see him being able to play in a two with the above options if Pogba supposedly can't)


So essentially we are going into the season with 2 players to play the 2 CM spots, that's madness.

For this reason alone Pogba will have to start playing CM again.

The ideal thing to do is for the club is to go out and get a DM. That greatly betters our options as both Pogba and VDB should be better beside true DMs.

After such a good window do we really want to risk letting such a flaw in the side potentially derail our season?

Yeah absolutely spot on and scary when you think we could also do with a tempo controlling CM as well

 

[laughtersassassin]

Yeah absolutely spot on and scary when you think we could also do with a tempo controlling CM as well

Very bad squad planning really. No idea what Ole and the staff is thinking.

 

[Ajr]

3/10

 

[E-mal]

It's now a necessity to get a CDM that is press resistant ASAP, bothering on negligence if we dont.

 

[croadyman]

It's now a necessity to get a CDM that is press resistant ASAP, bothering on negligence if we dont.

If there aren't being meetings this week about how serious this problem is then something is badly wrong

 

[laughtersassassin]

If we can't buy a DM then we must try get one on loan.

The one positive is the Southampton games exposed this obvious flaw very early while if competent we can still fix it.

 

[croadyman]

If we can't buy a DM then we must try get one on loan.

The one positive is the Southampton games exposed this obvious flaw very early while if competent we can still fix it.

Yeah that would be better than nothing

 

[Marwood]

It's not about a DM guys. It's about midfielders who can pass.

Go get a guy who plays as DM. If he passes like Fred we have the same problem.

 

[Borys]

Doesn't matter who we buy if we play him as the 5th player in the defence with Fred as one man midfielder. We're clueless how to use midfielders.

 

[Andycoleno9]

It is huge overreaction/excuse. We have Pogba and Bruno. World class midfielders. Just play 433 with Fred as dmc. He is not world class but he is not bad either. Also Donny is good as mc. Liverpool won CL and PL witb Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum midfield ffs.

 

[Redlyn]

It's not about a DM guys. It's about midfielders who can pass.

Go get a guy who plays as DM. If he passes like Fred we have the same problem.

Basically we need a Carrick. But even if not top level passing like Carrick I guess a rice / nevez level will have to do.

 

[laughtersassassin]

It is huge overreaction/excuse. We have Pogba and Bruno. World class midfielders. Just play 433 with Fred as dmc. He is not world class but he is not bad either. Also Donny is good as mc. Liverpool won CL and PL witb Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum midfield ffs.

It's not an overreaction as what we do play and can play are different things.

We play Fred Matic or McTominay in the midfield 2 as it stands. That is beyond shite.

It doesn't matter that we would do other stuff when Ole isn't doing that. Simple.

 

[Sandikan]

Worst midfield in the history of the world.

Am I doing it right?

 

[jesperjaap]

If we can't buy a DM then we must try get one on loan.

The one positive is the Southampton games exposed this obvious flaw very early while if competent we can still fix it.

There are many we have a chance of signing permanently, a loan really isnt needed.

As others mentioned, the planning yet again looks to have been poor. Nearly every pundit and fan worth there salt said over the summer we needed a centre back, central midfielder, right winger and striker.....that was when Cavani was expected to leave, so we can kind of eliminate the striker need for this season. I still think we actually need two as I dont think at this moment we have a single first eleven week in week out midfielder, we have good squad options.

But a loan, really? Bissouma, Rice, Camavinga, Kamara, Caqueret, Tchounami, Neves, Gravenburch, Barella,....the list of potential signings really can go on and on. Not seen much of some, not mad on others, not all obviously available, but in terms of what we need, prices, what and how many are potentially avialable, a central midfielder should have been the easiest spot to fill and was more important even for me than a right winger....a right winger that was last seasons signing really and a summer where we are financially in a far better position than the vast majority of Europes big sides.

There are many reasons we have failed to offload players to help finance a summer spend possibly.....two that are ignored often though....someone high up onj the club be it manager/owners/coaches wants to keep players we really dont need....and also the fact there hasnt been a clamour to sign a lot of our players....isnt so much about wages as made out, its also the fact a lot of them actually arent very good

 

[sewey89]

We clearly need reinforcements, but if anybody is watching the West Ham vs Leicester game, ndidi has just been shrugged off the ball and bullied by Antonio. Of course, that’s a one off and he’s still a great player. But if he’s at United and does that, that clip would be remembered for eternity as to why ndidi is weak and not good enough.

long story short.. sections of our fan base will never be happy and will always see new shiny toys as better than what we have

 

[laughtersassassin]

There are many we have a chance of signing permanently, a loan really isnt needed.

As others mentioned, the planning yet again looks to have been poor. Nearly every pundit and fan worth there salt said over the summer we needed a centre back, central midfielder, right winger and striker.....that was when Cavani was expected to leave, so we can kind of eliminate the striker need for this season. I still think we actually need two as I dont think at this moment we have a single first eleven week in week out midfielder, we have good squad options.

But a loan, really? Bissouma, Rice, Camavinga, Kamara, Caqueret, Tchounami, Neves, Gravenburch, Barella,....the list of potential signings really can go on and on. Not seen much of some, not mad on others, not all obviously available, but in terms of what we need, prices, what and how many are potentially avialable, a central midfielder should have been the easiest spot to fill and was more important even for me than a right winger....a right winger that was last seasons signing really and a summer where we are financially in a far better position than the vast majority of Europes big sides.

There are many reasons we have failed to offload players to help finance a summer spend possibly.....two that are ignored often though....someone high up onj the club be it manager/owners/coaches wants to keep players we really dont need....and also the fact there hasnt been a clamour to sign a lot of our players....isnt so much about wages as made out, its also the fact a lot of them actually arent very good

Loan is worst case for me is all I meant. Can't get no one in

 

[laughtersassassin]

We clearly need reinforcements, but if anybody is watching the West Ham vs Leicester game, ndidi has just been shrugged off the ball and bullied by Antonio. Of course, that’s a one off and he’s still a great player. But if he’s at United and does that, that clip would be remembered for eternity as to why ndidi is weak and not good enough.

long story short.. sections of our fan base will never be happy and will always see new shiny toys as better than what we have

Bit of a strawmans argument. Do we have a good enough Midfield pair that we can play.

Simple answer is no.

 

[Marwood]

Basically we need a Carrick. But even if not top level passing like Carrick I guess a rice / nevez level will have to do.

Well I think the danger is we get a Rice and everybody is happy because a DM is the golden ticket.

Except he's not all that great a passer either. The problem persists.

To me the structure of the midfield is fine. Two all rounders in there to let the others do their thing. That's fine.

It's just their passing ability. Get an upgraded version of Fred and I think it'd make a massive difference.

 

[sewey89]

Bit of a strawmans argument. Do we have a good enough Midfield pair that we can play.

Simple answer is no.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I probably posted my point in the wrong thread.

It just annoys me when we see X is better than Fred. Y is better than McT… etc

If either of those two played for another premier league team, they’d be widely praised on here and there’d be calls to sign them.

Whoever we sign has to be the correct signing and not signing a midfielder for the sake of it

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Well I think the danger is we get a Rice and everybody is happy because a DM is the golden ticket.

Except he's not all that great a passer either. The problem persists.

To me the structure of the midfield is fine. Two all rounders in there to let the others do their thing. That's fine.

It's just their passing ability. Get an upgraded version of Fred and I think it'd make a massive difference.

Rice and Neves are upgrades. Rice has the leadership qualities and physique, Neves has a better pass. Pair either of them with the ever improving McTominay as No 8 and we are a better team. Neves would be cheaper and Donny will cover most of the fee. I cannot see Ole pairing Fred or McTominay with him so why keep him? We do not need cover for Pogba once Rashford returns.