How Do Utd Beat The High Press?

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

What are you talking about?

Your point (unless I am wrong) is that you don't think you should go long or direct to beat a high press as you lose possession, your thinking that you rarely lose the ball on the edge of your own box.

My counter point is that, you're right you do rarely lose the ball on the edge of your own box, you actually lose it fairly close by, some twenty or so yards from the edge of your box. My point being, it doesn't matter, you're conceding the ball in a dangerous area constantly.

My wider point being that (with the right personnel) going long can work. Pumping long balls to Rashford is lunacy. But pumping balls over the top to Rashford, Martial and Ighalo is better. Case in point, Martial caused all kinds of panic to Zouma and Rudiger when they were turned and was lucky not to get a foul. If we set up to leave them up there, 2v2, or 3v3 Chelsea would have to react or they'd be in trouble.

 

[RashyForPM]

De Gea has to go, Maguire has to go and Lindelof has to go. The defenders are cumbersome, slow and even shit on the ball, despite their reputation as ‘ball-playing defenders’ (wtf is that anyway, they’re bloody footballers). As for De Gea, he’s just shit. I know all of this won’t happen in one window, but at least one has to be replaced now.

Fast defenders are so important, possibly more so than attackers. This is because we’ll get to play a high line and play the game in the opposition’s half. By making the ball and therefore the opposition move, they’ll be tired out and the high press will soon dissipate. If the defenders are technical, that helps too, as we can beat the actual press when needed. If we bought Varane (I know, a stretch) for example instead of Maguire back in August, we’ll be a far better team and have top 4 sewn up by now.

It’s not rocket science. Why Ole bought the Fridge, made him captain and gave him untouchable status, I’ll never know.

 

[Rawls]

I think the inability to deal with the high press is more of a structural issue and a coaching issue than a personnel issue. Pogba for instance has struggled recently against the high press but I'm not inclined to believe it is because a lack of ability. If Pereira for instance struggled to play out against the high press, we could say that it was due to a lack of ability; with Pogba however, he should not be as uncomfortable as he has been in terms of being pressed given his technical abilities. In terms of coaching, I think Solskjaer has to change Pogba's habits and encourage him to move the play faster as opposed to dwelling on the ball for too long. Coaching-wise, encouraging a player to move the ball quicker shouldn't be too much of a hard task given how OGS has already done a good job in terms of developing Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood (Although that may have more to do with him being an attacker, but Carrick was a DM so he should know how to advise midfielders).

But even if players do dwell less on the ball, there is a need for improvement in terms of the structure of the team in possession. OGS has never really shown much preference for a highly-structured team in possession, preferring more of a free-flow approach in all three phases. On the other hand, this contrasts with someone like LVG who was a stickler for structure in possession in the defensive third, middle third, and attacking third. Then you have someone like Guardiola who is more of a hybrid, in that his teams are highly structured in the defensive third and the middle third, but tend to be quite free-flow in the final third. A defined structure allows for multiple quick passing options, something which would be very effective in terms of working through the high press. For Arsenal's first goal against City on Saturday, it looked to me that every single Arsenal player had at least two passing options at all times when passing out from the back, allowing them to play through City's high press and to advance the ball forwards, leading to the goal. In comparison, there was an instance yesterday where Maguire was pressed by Jorginho and took an age on the ball, before eventually booting it to a Chelsea player. In this particular instance, there was a lack of proper passing options and spacing, leading to Maguire holding on to the ball unnecessarily in the wrong area of the pitch. Until we implement some form of structure in possession, I still think that the high press is going to cause us lots of problems.

 

[E-mal]

Its more coaching than personnel but one way to that is to counter press yourself. The problem with this though is that you're open to counter when you have the glacial brothers as centre backs.

 

[Greck]

Am surprised so many think long ball is the way to beat the press. This is 2020 people.

 

[tjb]

People are acting like we haven't done this before. We have dealt with teams under Ole that have pressed us high. The only difference at the moment is that we have found a new system that helps us beat the majority of teams in the league that do not, and due to the amount of games we have had to play in short order, we have chosen and been unable to impose tactics specifically to counter that threat. One major reason for this is, Bruno and Pogba have not played in many games against high pressing teams together. They have only just begun their partnership and have mastered how to beat the majority of teams. It will take a bit more time to understand their positions and strategy against higher quality opposition. Fans expect and have received instant rewards from the pair, but they need time to perfect their partnership.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Play it long down the channels ffs. There's no shame in changing things up. We don't have Xavi and Iniesta in midfield.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Don't be afraid of the long ball, I'm not saying punt it up, be accurate, but don't be afraid to go long.

There were a lot of examples vs Chelsea where we tried to pass it out along the ground when we would have been better placed to play it long.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The key to the long ball is to press high, win the midfield battle, and make sure the pressure doesn't come back to your half.

To do that, you need to have a very good first block and a good setup for winning the midfield battle with superiority or at least equality in numbers. That's another reason the 4-2-3-1 isn't that great, it's usually 2 vs 3 in midfield.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

The key to the long ball is to press high, win the midfield battle, and make sure the pressure doesn't come back to your half.

To do that, you need to have a very good first block and a good setup for winning the midfield battle with superiority or at least equality in numbers. That's another reason the 4-2-3-1 isn't that great, it's usually 2 vs 3 in midfield.

You also need a strong striker capable of winning those aerial duels and hold the ball.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Have more than three days between every single game.

 

[He'sRaldo]

You also need a strong striker capable of winning those aerial duels and hold the ball.

That is ideal but not always necessary.

If the opposition CB's win the header and head the ball away, as long as you win the midfield battle then you're fine. If they manage to get the ball under control, if you have a solid high block and high press, you're fine as well.

 

[BlahRules]

You need players to be available and able to do 1 touch passes, and able to switch the play to the other side with ease is the way to bypass the press. One example can be against Southampton when Martial and Shaw played one touched pass which enabled Shaw to cross it to Rashford. Unfortunately he was offside when he scored the goal.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

How United beat high press?
= By relying on the players to think and try on their own.

1. Trust in players
2. Coaches job is simply

• to only instruct and remind them to pass around at the back, but not how, just telling.
• to set-up zillions of rondos during trainings.
• to tell and remind Pogba and the other 3 CM/DMs to be discipline and help the defenders, but not how, just telling.
• to become cheerleaders when they're struggling.

3. Full Stop.

That's it. Really simple.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ok, last 3 games we’ve looked a little vulnerable against the system relying on individual brilliance to get us out of trouble. That’s a positive but moving forward against quality players we can’t rely on that all the time.
What tactics should we employ to counter that? What players should we go for?
I’m no transfer or player expert so don’t really know who’s out there that will give us the quality...oh I do know all about Sancho but that’s just one. I’ve felt we need 3 at least.

Pass the ball at a quicker tempo out of defence. Its that simple. We currently pass it out from the back way too slowly like we have all the time in the world

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Playing it long means that you are going to lose the ball even more. Have you guys checked the aerial duel percentages? There is a reason why dominant teams play from the back.

Long ball is never the answer. Quicker passing is. For example when we passed the ball quicker out the back vs Southampton we scored twice before half time and forced them on the back foot, neutering their high press

 

[Adnan]

I think it's a structural issue. Our structure goes to pot with Matic and we end up with only Pogba in midfield against a high press. It's about positional play and creating passing options aswell as having someone who could then also dribble out of a tight situation.

Below is a video of Marco Rose's RB Salzburg and their positional play which creates the structure to overcome such issues.


Below is a video of players beating the press via dribbling which apart from Pogba no one else at the club is capable of doing to the requisite level consistently.


The structure is the most important part and then the other facets will fall into place IMO. We have to create a numerical advantage in our favour to overcome it.

 

[Bastian]

@Adnan

Good post. A structural issue is a coaching issue of course. Though it has to be said, our backline does need added quality playing out from the back.

Btw, did you see Nagelsmann looking to move in a season or two, wants to go to England

 

[passing-wind]

I think it's a structural issue. Our structure goes to pot with Matic and we end up with only Pogba in midfield against a high press. It's about positional play and creating passing options aswell as having someone who could then also dribble out of a tight situation.

Below is a video of Marco Rose's RB Salzburg and their positional play which creates the structure to overcome such issues.


Below is a video of players beating the press via dribbling which apart from Pogba no one else at the club is capable of doing to the requisite level consistently.


The structure is the most important part and then the other facets will fall into place IMO. We have to create a numerical advantage in our favour to overcome it.

This is it, it's all to do with how Solskjaer is able to coach the team. I have never seen a team play through a high press with individuals doing things on impulse. It's all to do with the teams organisation. I think LVG was the only manager I'd credit for giving us the capabilities of maintaining possession the problem is we couldn't do anything with it.

I don't see Ole solving this issue for us, he's never been a possession orientated manager.

 

[Adnan]

@Adnan

Good post. A structural issue is a coaching issue of course. Though it has to be said, our backline does need added quality playing out from the back.

Btw, did you see Nagelsmann looking to move in a season or two, wants to go to England

You know i'm a big fan of Nagelmann and Rose. I'd be absolutely delighted with either if i'm honest.

There does seem to be a structural issue and it was evident against Soton. Ole needs to address that because Southampton easily cut off passing lanes which is very concerning. A lone Pogba in midfield was extremely alarming.

 

[Bastian]

You know i'm a big fan of Nagelmann and Rose. I'd be absolutely delighted with either if i'm honest.

There does seem to be a structural issue and it was evident against Soton. Ole needs to address that because Southampton easily cut off passing lanes which is very concerning. A loan Pogba in midfield was extremely alarming.

I think this has been an issue for years. Like @Yagami was saying in the Ole thread, our next frontier is to stop playing like a small club against sides of equal or similar quality.

Ole has managed to play like a small club against similar sides and win games. He's now finally managed to carve open defensive sides. But we've not seen one example of playing like a big club against another big club, and that's where I think he will come up short (though, in fairness, this new XI emerging has yet to be tested in that regard).

I could bear another season of selling deadwood and making slight amendments to the squad if it meant we'd still be hungry looking for the best youth around the world and then installed a very progressive and capable manager next summer. I don't see the board sacking Ole - no matter what - this summer and I don't see us being overly ambitious in the market either.

 

[Adnan]

I think this has been an issue for years. Like @Yagami was saying in the Ole thread, our next frontier is to stop playing like a small club against sides of equal or similar quality.

Ole has managed to play like a small club against similar sides and win games. He's now finally managed to carve open defensive sides. But we've not seen one example of playing like a big club against another big club, and that's where I think he will come up short (though, in fairness, this new XI emerging has yet to be tested in that regard).

I could bear another season of selling deadwood and making slight amendments to the squad if it meant we'd still be hungry looking for the best youth around the world and then installed a very progressive and capable manager next summer. I don't see the board sacking Ole - no matter what - this summer and I don't see us being overly ambitious in the market either.

I completely agree.

I also think Ole is trying to transform us from being a team that prioritizes defensive stability to a team that sacrifices defensive stability. Whether he succeeds in doing so depends on what he does on the training ground because structurally we're coming up short against teams who press high hence having a numerical disadvantage in midfield. If he can fix that then the likes of Soton shouldn't be a big issue IMO. The first phase of the build up is broken and needs to be fixed.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I completely agree.

I also think Ole is trying to transform us from being a team that prioritizes defensive stability to a team that sacrifices defensive stability. Whether he succeeds in doing so depends on what he does on the training ground because structurally we're coming up short against teams who press high hence having a numerical disadvantage in midfield. If he can fix that then the likes of Soton shouldn't be a big issue IMO. The first phase of the build up is broken and needs to be fixed.

Hopefully he improves on it.

We need better ball retention to get back to the elite.

 

[Bastian]

I completely agree.

I also think Ole is trying to transform us from being a team that prioritizes defensive stability to a team that sacrifices defensive stability. Whether he succeeds in doing so depends on what he does on the training ground because structurally we're coming up short against teams who press high hence having a numerical disadvantage in midfield. If he can fix that then the likes of Soton shouldn't be a big issue IMO. The first phase of the build up is broken and needs to be fixed.

Absolutely. I just have serious reservations as to the level of his ideas, whether he really can become an outstanding coach, because that's really what it's going to take. I think he can prepare the ground for that type of manager in terms of squad design and developing the attacking fluidity in the final third.

 

[Adnan]

Absolutely. I just have serious reservations as to the level of his ideas, whether he really can become an outstanding coach, because that's really what it's going to take. I think he can prepare the ground for that type of manager in terms of squad design and developing the attacking fluidity in the final third.

Agreed. I think he'll pave the way for the next man at the very least and then it'll be upto the hierachy to bring in the correct manager to suit what Solskjaer has been implementing in his time at the club. Nagelmann or Rose would be the correct idea and Allegri would be wrong IMO.

But having said that I hope Solskjaer delivers and we don't need to look elsewhere.

 

[RikRuud]

De Gea needs to improve massively with the ball at his feet and defenders need to find the space between the press to receive the pass.

 

[roseguy64]

Do what we did to Bournemouth. Quick passing from the back and try to get the ball to the front 4 as quickly as possible. Literally just 2 touches per player, be direct and bypass their press with quick short passes and let the front 4 do their thing.

This pretty much. The matches against Southampton and Chelsea haven't been the first matches where we've been pressed since January. We used to move the ball much better with these same players. Since Pogba got caught on the ball against Southampton though we've been way too hesitant and slow making it easy for the opposition.

 

[AshRK]

Be quick on the ball and stop ball hogging. There is no need to have lindelof maguire and matic all touch the ball for it to be moved forward. Be a bit more bold. Also, having a forward thinking fullbacks helps.

 

[roseguy64]

It's a weird one, because if you'd ask me before lockdown and even 3 or 4 weeks ago, I'd have told you that we were infinitely better at playing out from the back and that we were really dealing better with the press than from before - we easily handled City's press, for example.

But the last week or so has seen us regress in this aspect, which seems to tell me that it might be a fitness and tiredness issue rather than a technical one. The best we can do right now is to continue working hard in training and get it right - be it spacing, being proactive, identifying the passing lanes, etc etc.

Alternatively, it might also be that our personnel in crucial positions are not sufficiently press-resistant, and it's something that can only be fixed through the transfer market.

Good to know I'm not making things up. We've just suddenly lost all composure when playing from the back. Maybe it's because Shaw's not there so the CBs aren't comfortable.

 

[Bastian]

This pretty much. The matches against Southampton and Chelsea haven't been the first matches where we've been pressed since January. We used to move the ball much better with these same players. Since Pogba got caught on the ball against Southampton though we've been way too hesitant and slow making it easy for the opposition.

Southampton's press is something else. And to be fair, against Liverpool and City we've gone mega defensive. The last match against Chelsea doesn't really count, a mix of squad players and absolutely shattered key players in a disjointed system.

We'll see what we're like when the Europa League resumes.

 

[roseguy64]

Southampton's press is something else. And to be fair, against Liverpool and City we've gone mega defensive. The last match against Chelsea doesn't really count, a mix of squad players and absolutely shattered key players in a disjointed system.

We'll see what we're like when the Europa League resumes.

You're right that Southampton's press was more effective than other teams but whilst we were being put under pressure I still thought we were moving it better out of the back. Not as good as against other teams but nothing like how awful it looked against Chelsea. We just got stuck in midfield against Southampton.

It will probably look better in the Europa League as we'll have had time to work on things on the training pitch not just doing recovery work.

 

[hobbers]

You just need technically gifted players with quick brains. Not players like James or Lingard who can't hold onto the ball to save their life. Or players in midfield who turn at the speed of aircraft carriers like Matic.

 

[sammsky1]

It's a mix of several things that we have all trained for since we were 5-6 years old, if you played organized football. The list would be the following:

- Two touches football(Control-Pass-Move).
- Always try to create triangles, it essentially means that three players can't be on a straight line, their is a need for depth, for United it's particularly true for our CBs and fullbacks who for some unknown reason tend to put themselves on a line when they are on the ball.

Then there are things that are purely technical:

- The passer needs to put the ball in a place that is the easier to control and faster to release, too often our players just lump the ball toward a teammate with no care for his stronger foot or where the opposition is.
- Oriented first touches, this applies to Maguire and AWB in particular, the reason they need that many touches is because they don't orient their first touches in a way that allows the next touch to be a pass, the ball is too often to close to their feet, too close to the opponent or on their wrong foot.

Great post!

I used to coach an U15 team a few years back. I'd make 4 boys play two touch passing rondo outside a 5 or 10 metre each side square box with the rule that you couldn't pass back to the person who passed the ball to you (create triangles).

The point I'd make to the passer is that he should pass the ball to the favoured foot of the receiver and it should be easy to control (along the floor!). Equally, I stressed to receivers to anticipate the most favourable angle and be positioned where it was easiest for the passer send his pass. As they received the ball, they also had to think about whom they would pass the ball to next. The principle being they were equally to blame if a pass failed, so when the rondo broke down, both passer and receiver had to do the 10 push up penalty. The exercise was complete once a team had completed 100 consecutive passes.

I'd then do a 2 or 3m square box rondo for one touch passing (this time you could also pass back to the person who'd passed to you). Same principles and penalty.

We trained 3 times a week, and within a month, they had created amazing muscle memory, concentration intensity and instincts. When we played vs other teams, it was virtually cheating ... my boys would just waltz through the pitch, passing at dizzying speeds and win games 7-0! Really showed me how you can get very good at this stuff through repetition and commitment from those involved.

Am sure PL level players should be able to do this with their eyes closed, certainly those who cost £50+M! So I get very confused why guys like Maguire, Pogba or Matic sometimes 'dawdle' on the ball, or why receiving players haven't gotten themselves into a positive receiving space. Or why AWB or Lukaku have such poor first touch!

 

[Davie Moyes]

Great post!

I used to coach an U15 team a few years back. I'd make 4 boys play two touch passing rondo outside a 5 metre each side square box and you couldn't pass back to the person who passed the ball to you.

I stressed to receivers to think ahead and ensure they were positioned exactly where it was easiest for the passer to make the pass. They should anticipate the most favourable angle for the passer. As they received the ball, they also had to think about what they would do with the ball next. The point I'd make to the passer is that he should pass a ball that was to the right foot of the receiver and very easy to control and that he was at fault if the pass failed. The principle being they were equally to blame if a pass failed. So when the rondo broke down, both passer and receiver had to do the 10 push up penalty. The exercise was complete once a team had completed 100 non stop passes.

I'd then do a 2m square box rondo for one touch passing (this time you could also pass back to the person who'd passed to you). Same principles and penalty.

We trained 3 times a week, and within a month, they had created amazing muscle memory, concentration intensity and instincts. When we played vs other teams, its was virtually cheating.... my boys would just waltz through the pitch as a dizzying speed and win games 7-0! Really taught me how you can get very good at this stuff through repetition and commitment from those involved.

Am sure PL level players should be able to do this with their eyes closed, certainly those who cost £50+M! So I get very confused why guys like Maguire, Pogba or Matic sometimes 'dawdle' on the ball, or why receiving players haven't gotten themselves into a positive receiving space. Or why AWB or Lukaku had such poor first touch!

Great post. I love reading these kinds of posts that provide some insight and demonstrates that a particular poster understands football and also what they see when watching it. I must admit I rarely spot the basic stuff JP and you are talking about, probably beyond my footballing intelligence as I've never really played 11 a side football only 5 a side.

 

[cyril C]

High press normally associated with top teams. What did we do against top teams? Suck up the pressure, and long pass to either side, forget about midfield building up. That was how we beat the top teams. When we try to do the opposite and build up from our box, count all the errors by DDG, Maguire, Lindelof, Pogba that cost us multiple goals this season so far.

 

[JPB]

Pretty simple. You don't pass to what Mourinho calls "the first station pass".

An effective press is like a trap that releases when one presser pushes the player with the ball into a direction or avenue giving them a close or easy pass to a player who is being tee'd up for further pressing.

If you constantly just pass the ball five to ten yards to the nearest player because a) you're terrified of losing the ball b) not confident on the ball or c) haven't thought about a pass before you receive the ball (football intelligence) then you walk into the trap.

Vertical / breaking lines passes / forward and straight work. Going long works. Width in your own half does not work, you're just giving the opposition another defender (the touchline).

An example pattern is; GK to CB, CB to CB (my most hated pass), (pressure comes), CB rushes to LB (LB was marked and didn't want the ball) LB turns back towards goal and gives back to CB, CB is pressed and goes back to other CB or GK, who goes back to CB who then passes to RB and the RB does the same thing, turns backwards under pressure or hoofs up the line or loses the ball out of play conceding possession closer to our goal.

My idea (as a forum dweller not a football coach) is, NO EFFING SHORT BALLS UNLESS YOU GO BETWEEN THE OPPO CMs. That's it. Unless you're able to break the lines a la Roy Keane into the AM feet, don't bother. Go long. High press usually means either high back line (get in behind with pace) or gap between midfield and defence (second balls won in their last third, knock downs etc).

I would ban "width" in your own half when in possession as I personally think it is a waste of time, you don't stretch the play, you just move your possession closer to the edge of the playing area.

Then again, I am not a football coach.

Tldr: Just hoof it up field and lose the ball anyway.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

This has been my point on maguire. If he isn't fast enough, and isn't good enough on the ball, then why on earth did we pay a record fee for him? And the fact most people think we need a new CB is damning.

Having said that, we look best at playing out from the back when the CBs split and allow Matic to have the ball from there ie when the CBs aren't actually involved in playing out from the back

Pogba has allowed Matic to drop even deeper and effectively operate as a 3rd Centre back.When Pogbas in the team,Matic doesn’t have the pressure to be our deep lying playmaker...He doesn’t have the pressure of passing the ball forward,he naturally tends to drop deeper and we almost end up with a back 3....That effectively gives more freedom for our full backs to bomb forward,which in turn allows Rashford and Greenwood to cut inside and play as inside forwards...

When teams drop deep we have finally found an effective system to break them down.But when teams press us high up the pitch,we lack the quality to wriggle our way through the press.De Gea isn’t very comfortable passing forward when being pressed,Maguire and Lindelof lack the quality and the composure to move the ball forward.

I agree with you,I”m actually quite dissapointed with Maguire.For that amount of money you should be purchasing a world class CB,but he’s nowhere near being that level.He lacks the pace to play high up the line....His movement isn’t agile and nimble in tight spaces,his movement is slow and laboured....He doesnt Look comfortable defending 1 v 1.....All in all,nowhere near worth the investment...

 

[Trex]

I think you have to understand Ole's philosophy,our shape while trying to build an attack is usually a back three consisting of our center backs and Matic to the left in front of them would be Pogba central and the full backs on either side ahead of them is Fernandes in an advance central position with the wingers either side and Martial upfront forming a 3331 very different from city who usually play 2323,Ole system is about using the wings to progress the ball,this system moves Matic into defense to create extra protection and fernandes into attack to add an extra attacker,Pogba role is to stay central knowing he would always be tightly marked due to his range of passing and ability to drive forward,the flaw in our system is in the nature of our fullbacks and wingers,neither of our wingers are great ball progress,they lack that natural ability to drop deeper into midfield or down the wings to receive or progress play either using passing combos or driving runs(this is why landing Sancho or someone similar is very important) the relationship btw Shaw and Rashford is decent,Rashford can produce moments like the one that resulted in our second goal vs palace and Shaw is composed and a good passer it's the right side that really struggles,Wan bissaka passing can be erratic and Greenwood isn't going to dribble the ball up pitch,this puts extra pressure on everyone,it's almost like a self imposed trap at the moment, we obviously won't be be upgraded AWB so getting a right winger that takes charge in this scenario is very important
The MMM front three can only work at its best when the opponent are sitting deep,this is why I feel it's not sustainable every good front three has atleast one very good ball progressors,some two MSN had Messi playing that role Liverpool have Mane playing that role,its important we get one

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Tldr: Just hoof it up field and lose the ball anyway.

Nah, just lose it closer to your goal but "play the right way".

Garbage.

 

[SinNombre]

Below is a video of Marco Rose's RB Salzburg and their positional play which creates the structure to overcome such issues.

Adnan, do you have a video of Salzburg's structural play against a pressing team. Easier to maintain it against weaker opposition who is not pressing.