How do we balance this Man Utd-team?

[Ollie Derbyshire]

I don’t think it’s rocket science, Bruno has to play closer to the midfield, if we have 3 in there you can start playing Pogba or VDB in there next to Fred. That’s a nice balance for me in midfield.

Whoever plays on the wings needs to track back and actually help out the full backs, they’re alll great talents going forwards but none of them are good enough defensively. Ole has to demand this form them.

Finally, use the squad, we have a very deep squad that if rotated properly can stay fresh and energised.

 

[wattsy7]

I understand what putting Fred in & taking one of the more attack minded players does for the balance of the team, but i feel a Fred & McTom midfield has a ceiling of which it has reached, it will probably get top four but it simply won’t win the big honours, so Ole needs to come up with something new if we are to take the next step, even if it is a massive risk.

I see two options:

1. Bruno Mctom Pogba as a 3, full backs would have huge responsibility in stopping counter attacks if this was used, much how pep has used fullbacks coming into central areas in the past. Bruno wouldn’t be allowed to press up high beside Ronaldo like he does currently, ideally both Pogba & Bruno wouldn’t run beyond the ball until we have complete control of a game or we have gone behind. It could even become a 442 with one of Bruno or Pogba going out wide with the other staying in cm and Sancho playing wide the other side. Wide players would have to be more wide midfielders than inside forwards, so no Greenwood out wide if we were to do that.

2. Switch to a back 5 with a midfield two of Mctominay & Pogba, with Bruno as part of a front 3. Could even go how England did in the 2018 world cup with Pogba and Bruno in the Alli & Lingard positions.

I don’t see any other viable options if we are to move away from McTominay & Fred as a two. Other than buy a new midfield of course.

 

[Tyrion]

Then your team will never have players like peak Messi or Ronaldo.

Peak Messi pressed. Peak Ronaldo didn't but he was good enough to get away with it. I'm not sure if he still is.

 

[Zen86]

Oddly, it’s the Bruno position that’s causing us to be so unbalanced. He’s too attack minded to be in the middle of the park and our CM/wingbacks aren’t good enough to compensate. Asks the question of whether he should play as a false 9 or wide forward.

 

[bonothom]

I really don't think its as complicated as people are making it.

It isn't. Just sack Solskjaer and replace him with someone actually qualified to do the job. Conte for example. The only people happy with United continuing to back Solskjaer are Liverpool, City and Chelsea fans.

 

[tjb]

I really dislike that it seems to be a trend that people think that we cant play our best players (Ronaldo, Pogba and Bruno).

I think we can. But probably not in a 4231 if you want to play to their strenghts.

I actually think a narrow 442 would work. I think our problem, even in terms of our midfield, is that it can be a bit too wide at times.I think we would also benefit from defined lines rather than the flexibility that roaming brings. For example, Bruno can be on the right, on the left, up front or dropping deep. Ole and his team don't have the team moving enough to employ a system that requires that level of fluidity to be effective. 442 ( or really a 4222) with Bruno as one of the 2 10's with sancho, and one of Greenwood or Rashford playing alongside Ronaldo. That way you have more staggered lines, without players having to move out of position in order to get back defensively.

More importantly, it think in terms of our build up, we are a bit too measured. City and Chelsea have the patterns and movement to afford to be measured, as they can always play their way out of the back. But we can't and we should simply accept it. We should focus on getting the ball into the opposition half, where we can either keep possession or press to get it back. We spend far too long in our own half, needlessly trying to keep possession and slowly building up. We allow the opposition to set up defensively. If you open the game up but playing it quickly, through long ball down the lines and goal kicks, the game will open up more for our attackers because the opposition would have to deal with the intensity of the direct ball. Our biggest issue is that our attackers do not receive the ball enough to create an impact. What it feels like atm, is that we are trying to play a brand of football that our coaching staff have no clue on how to properly implement. One big issue that also exists in this is that even when we try to increase the tempo of our play, its through the intensity of the passes rather than moving the ball up the pitch. In order for that to work, we would have to have a very high accuracy of difficult to control passes, and only a few teams have that. This means that on most occassions when we try to up the tempo, our play breaks down easily.

I would play:

DDG
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Pogba Fred
Sancho Bruno
Greenwood CR7

 

[Teja]

Been saying it since the season started but IMO 5-3-2 is the most balanced line up we can put out. We'll have one CBs stepping up and occupying DM like positioning (probably Lindelof), so that big gaping hole that is the defensive mid goes away. Pogba + Fred + CB will effectively be the midfield 3 and that frees up both Pogba and Fred to do their thing (Pogba will have 2x defensive players behind him, Fred will not be a DM, can go into challenges without worrying about not having cover in behind).

It will be more defensive than our current line up because we're effectively dropping one attacker for a defender. We can go back to a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 when we have a proper midfielder next year.

------------------------- DDG -------------------------------
--------- Varane -- Lindelof -- Maguire ---------
--- AwB ------------------------------------- Shaw ------
-------------------- Fred ----- Pogba --------------------
--------------------------- Bruno -----------------------------
--------- Ronaldo ------------------------ Rashford ---

Obviously the attack will be quite flexible and won't look exactly like what it is on paper. Bruno will continue to have total freedom and will effectively play a false 9 drifting to the RW. Pogba will hold that left attacking mid position where he's devastating. Ronaldo will drift right, Rashford will drift left to make something happen.

The only real problem is that AwB is not your typical wing back but overall a lot more balance IMO. Replace Ronaldo with Greenwood and everyone's in their preferred positions.

This is also why I think Conte will fit in nicely here.

 

[RUCK4444]

A diamond will easily solve the issue. Sadly our manager is just clueless on how to play that.

City play with Grealish, KDB, Rodri, Silva in midfield. Is that balanced enough?

It's our manager who isn't good enough to get the best out of the team. Let's not blame it on "balance of the squad"

Funny that because every one of our previous managers with the exception of Moyes (who didn’t try it) struggled with implementing a diamond formation with any consistency, including Sir Alex.

This isn’t fifa. It would also means dropping some of our best and most regular goal scoring players.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Peak Messi pressed. Peak Ronaldo didn't but he was good enough to get away with it. I'm not sure if he still is.

Really depends which peak version you referring to, as Barca under Pep surely press as unit, but not quite so in most other period, especially the more recent 7 or 8 years.

Both player are known to be laziest in terms of defensive work for larger part of their career. One just hardly bother to press, while the other just walks around slowly doing nothing whenever opponents have the ball.

 

[bond19821982]

Funny that because every one of our previous managers with the exception of Moyes (who didn’t try it) struggled with implementing a diamond formation with any consistency, including Sir Alex.

This isn’t fifa. It would also means dropping some of our best and most regular goal scoring players.

I know what's Fifa and what's not. So let's go easy on that.
Previously which managers had this problem ? Jose ? He is as bad as Ole or worse. I don't even know why the heck would you bring Moyes and LVG to this discussion. The team was totally different.

Also, please lets not bring the great man to this. He could play me and we will still win the epl.

 

[RUCK4444]

I know what's Fifa and what's not. So let's go easy on that.
Previously which managers had this problem ? Jose ? He is as bad as Ole or worse. I don't even know why the heck would you bring Moyes and LVG to this discussion. The team was totally different.

Also, please lets not bring the great man to this. He could play me and we will still win the epl.

Just pointing out that the diamond isn’t just something you can flick a switch with and get consistent results with in this League, we’ve struggled multiple times with it.

 

[Roane]

Part of the unvalance is created by the players we have. Pogba Ronaldo and Bruno should be in seperate teams. I think Bruno specifically unbalances the team, however is a fantastic individual. If you watch him for Portugal you can see he is not the same player as he has a defined role. For all his goals and assists he also gives the ball away a lot and is weak in the challenge.

I think Fred gets a lot of stick but speaking to lads who go to games and having seen him myself at the ground you realise how much he runs around and is trying to do the job of 2/3 players and how bad Mct is. In fact I see the same for varane. Varane tries to cover more ground because Maguire is slow.

AWB gets stick but gets very little cover from Greenwood.

The most lively player is Cavani who gets around, but again he needs to be at the business end and isn't because we don't get the ball up front as our MF lose it very quickly.

For me it does point to a lack of style/coaching, relying on individual players rather than a team.

 

[bond19821982]

Just pointing out that the diamond isn’t just something you can flick a switch with and get consistent results with in this League, we’ve struggled multiple times with it.

Who have tried it ? Care to detail it out for me ?
Ole is probably the only one who has such an array of talented players at his disposal. Jose had a Lukaku who is best as a lone CF but then Bruno wasn't there either.

Guaranteed, Zidane or Conte or any other talented manager will get more than what we are getting now.

 

[M16Red]

Drop Pogba or Bruno, move Greenwood to the left and Sancho to the right.

Bring Rashford on late on the left, move Greenwood to the right. Bring off Sancho.

Only let one left or right back attack at time, the other side tucks in and makes a back three to stop counters, only one of the midfield two moves off a man, the other stands on the center man to stop counters or picks up a yellow.

Two touch or lose the ball.

 

[Giggsyking]

By sacking the manager.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Haha you know what I meant!

sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

[Cantonaaa!]

Patrick Berg

 

[Lentwood]

I watched the City and Chelsea games today and have noticed that both utilised a similar tactic, whereby the defenders/GK passed the ball to players who occupied a position you might call "central midfield", who then controlled the ball and passed it forward to another teammate. These "central midfield" players would then make space for themselves to receive another pass, in-doing so creating options for their teammates and ensuring possession was retained and attacks could be sustained.

It seemed to be quite effective.

 

[MasterCode]

It isn't. Just sack Solskjaer and replace him with someone actually qualified to do the job. Conte for example. The only people happy with United continuing to back Solskjaer are Liverpool, City and Chelsea fans.

No

 

[RUCK4444]

Who have tried it ? Care to detail it out for me ?
Ole is probably the only one who has such an array of talented players at his disposal. Jose had a Lukaku who is best as a lone CF but then Bruno wasn't there either.

Guaranteed, Zidane or Conte or any other talented manager will get more than what we are getting now.

I literally listed them for you and you told me not to mention them.

 

[NZT-One]

A diamond will easily solve the issue. Sadly our manager is just clueless on how to play that.

City play with Grealish, KDB, Rodri, Silva in midfield. Is that balanced enough?

It's our manager who isn't good enough to get the best out of the team. Let's not blame it on "balance of the squad"

I know what's Fifa and what's not. So let's go easy on that.
Previously which managers had this problem ? Jose ? He is as bad as Ole or worse. I don't even know why the heck would you bring Moyes and LVG to this discussion. The team was totally different.

Also, please lets not bring the great man to this. He could play me and we will still win the epl.

The reason teams have stopped playing the diamond is that it struggles to provide width. If you have no width, you are easier to defend against because the defense can stay compact. You could get away with it by having a great set of fullbacks. Case closed.

Agree though, it gets rid of the wingers who we don't really have anyway and it gives us the option to play a lot of our strongest players. I'd honestly give it a try but I wouldn't expect it to work for a longer time because teams will easily adjust. Like they are now countering through our middle they will then start killing us over the flanks.

I actually think a narrow 442 would work. I think our problem, even in terms of our midfield, is that it can be a bit too wide at times.I think we would also benefit from defined lines rather than the flexibility that roaming brings. For example, Bruno can be on the right, on the left, up front or dropping deep. Ole and his team don't have the team moving enough to employ a system that requires that level of fluidity to be effective. 442 ( or really a 4222) with Bruno as one of the 2 10's with sancho, and one of Greenwood or Rashford playing alongside Ronaldo. That way you have more staggered lines, without players having to move out of position in order to get back defensively.

More importantly, it think in terms of our build up, we are a bit too measured. City and Chelsea have the patterns and movement to afford to be measured, as they can always play their way out of the back. But we can't and we should simply accept it. We should focus on getting the ball into the opposition half, where we can either keep possession or press to get it back. We spend far too long in our own half, needlessly trying to keep possession and slowly building up. We allow the opposition to set up defensively. If you open the game up but playing it quickly, through long ball down the lines and goal kicks, the game will open up more for our attackers because the opposition would have to deal with the intensity of the direct ball. Our biggest issue is that our attackers do not receive the ball enough to create an impact. What it feels like atm, is that we are trying to play a brand of football that our coaching staff have no clue on how to properly implement. One big issue that also exists in this is that even when we try to increase the tempo of our play, its through the intensity of the passes rather than moving the ball up the pitch. In order for that to work, we would have to have a very high accuracy of difficult to control passes, and only a few teams have that. This means that on most occassions when we try to up the tempo, our play breaks down easily.

I would play:

DDG
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Pogba Fred
Sancho Bruno
Greenwood CR7

Your argumentation seems to be sound but maybe you can answer a few questions:
1. What do mean by "our midfield is too wide" - who exactly?
2. Which time frame are you talking about - most recent or last 1-2 years? Because I don't think at all that we are "too measured". I feel the only reason why our built-up seems slow is because we seemingly have one plan, give the ball to Bruno (or maybe Pogba) who then tries to play the strikers in with a long ball. We are "measured" because everybody and his dog knows our plan and tries to deny it. And even if we would play even faster, aren't we then at the same point like last year? Where other teams just went low block against us so there simply was no space to use?

I think you are right with one specific aspect: our way of playing, even if it might be simplistic, rough-edged, rudimental and impatient, would certainly benefit from being paired with a high pressing system. This could make the current approach work but I think, we are so far away from anything I'd call an organized team press, that we can just skip that chapter for later.

In conclusion: yes, deploying a pressing system would bring out more from the current system (and personnel as well probably) but integrating such thing is difficult and potentially too big of a job for the current coaches. In absence of such a system, we have to learn to get more comfortable with being measured. We have to develop more ways to hurt a team because only then teams will not be as greatly equipped with a gameplan against us as they are right now. We were good at countering 2 years ago. Last year as well. Now the natural evolution needs to be getting more comfortable in possession so we can hurt the teams who decide to just surrender the ball to us.

 

[The Brown Bull]

It’s actually pretty easy to balance our side. Stop trying to squeeze Pogba into the side. Done!

Pretty much agree. He has great ability but we don’t see it often enough for whatever reason.

 

[NZT-One]

Agree with almost every word, but probably not the conclusion and the bit about Pogba struggeling under pressure. I think he struggle under pressure when he dont get to play to his strenght. I mean, he was so good in that second half against Italy in the NL-final just recently.

The Juve-thing was lazy of me. Did not mean it like that. Was more about what area of the pitch I would want him. So no, I would not want him as a DLP. Rather an attacking «eight» (dont know the best word for it in english). More similar to Lampard in his prime.

I also agree that McT would not really be ideal as a DM, and if that did not work, I would probably prefer to see Man Utd with three CBs.

1. I know what you mean. Re-reading my text, I probably didn't pick the right words. Crumbling under pressure is a bit heavy, you are right. Maybe a better wording is "Pogba doesn't flourish when the expectation is on him". At United everybody is looking at him to make the team tick or to create stuff. It is reduced if Bruno on the pitch as well but Pogba then is the main man in terms of rhythm (based on his position and qualities). I always felt, this is too heavy on his shoulders. At France the spotlight is on Mbappe and Griezmann, they have such an abundance of great players and they have Theo Hernandez at LB who is one of the best LB in the game in my eyes. I always feel, when Pogba flourishes, he is awesome and almost unplayable. But when he isn't flourishing, his output shrinks to an alarming amount. Scholes is a great example of something, I'd hoped to see in Pogba: Scholes rarely had an awesome game. But he never had a bad one. Between the best Scholes-performance and the average Scholes-performance, there isn't so much room, with Pogba that is night and day.

But at the end of the day I am with you. Try Pogba next to McFred in a real midfield three. Matic in my eyes is done. He was a good servant for the club but right now, there is no point in playing him. He won't be pickable for all the matches we would need him, he is only good for cameos, that is what his role should be reduced to.

2. I am actually a bit puzzled why we haven't seen a 3-at-the-back system for so long. Didn't Ole use it in his care-taker stint? To good effect also? I would even think about adding McTominay as RCB , maybe that is a position we really could get the best out of him. Would do definitely.

 

[bond19821982]

I literally listed them for you and you told me not to mention them.

You named SAF (who always played 2 strikers in a 442 ), Moyes (who was never a right appointment) and Jose (who never attempted to play a diamond )

Now tell me how exactly is wrong when I say our manager is incompetent or managers has been incompetent? You are just agreeing to my point. All of the managers including Ole , either lacked the tactical knowledge or lacked the balls to try something different to fit the players we have.

 

[bond19821982]

The reason teams have stopped playing the diamond is that it struggles to provide width. If you have no width, you are easier to defend against because the defense can stay compact. You could get away with it by having a great set of fullbacks. Case closed.

Agree though, it gets rid of the wingers who we don't really have anyway and it gives us the option to play a lot of our strongest players. I'd honestly give it a try but I wouldn't expect it to work for a longer time because teams will easily adjust. Like they are now countering through our middle they will then start killing us over the flanks.

Yes, the width should come from full backs but his 50m right back signing can't do anything with the ball so we are pretty much back to square one. Now he cant bench him not can he try him in a diamond .

Thing is , our transfers also has been a bit of meh. 170m on Maguire, AWB and Donny. He should be fired just for approving that.

 

[RUCK4444]

You named SAF (who always played 2 strikers in a 442 ), Moyes (who was never a right appointment) and Jose (who never attempted to play a diamond )

Now tell me how exactly is wrong when I say our manager is incompetent or managers has been incompetent? You are just agreeing to my point. All of the managers including Ole , either lacked the tactical knowledge or lacked the balls to try something different to fit the players we have.

Sir Alex dabbled with the diamond around 2012, reverted back. LVG ran with it for a while. I said Moyes didn’t try it.

I pointed out that it’s simply not that easy to switch to a diamond like you claim it is, especially mid season, it’s needs work and it means dropping some of our most prolific players.

I’m not getting into an Ole debate with you regarding his ability.

 

[SplitzMagic]

To be honest I think we should try AWB at CDM for 1 game. He offers nothing going forwards but alot in defence.

That then allows us to have Dalot as a wi g back knowing we have a player in AWB to cover if needed.

 

[EtH]

Rashford/Sancho/Cavani// Leaving out 3 top class players who can create some width and space

Well unfortunately I don’t think our midfield options are good enough to run four attackers out against most sides considering Bruno pretty much plays as a second striker.

 

[chb23]

Tell Bruno he's not a striker

 

[Jibbs]

------------------------- DDG -------------------------------
----------------Varane ------- Maguire -----------------
--- AwB ------------------------------------- Shaw ------
---------------------------McT-------------------------------
-------------------- Fred ----- Pogba --------------------
--------------------------- Bruno -----------------------------
--------- Cavani------------------------ Ronaldo

 

[sp_107]

------------------------- DDG -------------------------------
----------------Varane ------- Maguire -----------------
--- AwB ------------------------------------- Shaw ------
---------------------------McT-------------------------------
-------------------- Fred ----- Pogba --------------------
--------------------------- Bruno -----------------------------
--------- Cavani------------------------ Ronaldo

This might work but what ever the combination we pick we might have to leave 3/4 top class players on Bench. Seems like Ole will have headache keeping many players happy this year

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Bruno simply has to adapt his game as an 8. Get a holding midfielder and play Bruno and Fred in a midfield 3.

 

[NZT-One]

Yes, the width should come from full backs but his 50m right back signing can't do anything with the ball so we are pretty much back to square one. Now he cant bench him not can he try him in a diamond .

Thing is , our transfers also has been a bit of meh. 170m on Maguire, AWB and Donny. He should be fired just for approving that.

I am with you, I didn't really get all the praise for his transfers as well, mainly because they don't really seem to suit the way we want to play and that, even at the point of buying, they were pretty expensive. Just to make it clear, I think Oles transfers were good, but not excellent. But this isn't the thread to go into that.

I'd try the diamond maybe with Dalot. In a game where the pressure isn't that much on. Just to find out, if the players maybe feel comfortable.

To be honest I think we should try AWB at CDM for 1 game. He offers nothing going forwards but alot in defence.

That then allows us to have Dalot as a wi g back knowing we have a player in AWB to cover if needed.

I am pretty sure that AWB is way to uncomfortable on the ball to be playing in the middle of the park. He struggles controlling the ball when playing on the wing where opponents can only come from 3 directions, I suppose he'd get a nosebleed if put in the middle.

 

[bonothom]

Anyone in any doubt that Solskjaer should go or are we still Ole at the wheel. Pathetic.

 

[andersj]

More balanced than usual yes. Conceded two freak goals but much more balanced than we look when Pogba plays deep.

Another balanced 45 min without Pogba. Just a few freak goals, I guess.

 

[KingCavani]

Shaw is the most overrated player in Europe

 

[Castia]

Any decent manager would love technical players like Pogba, Sancho, Donny etc but this manage likes lads who run around a bit.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Another balanced 45 min without Pogba. Just a few freak goals, I guess.

I mean it’s clearly on Ole Isn’t it. I like Pogba but not a chance he would have helped this rout much! Then again McTominay is shocking so maybe he would have!

 

[Red_toad]

Get Matic and Pogba on second half, Bruno and McTommy off. Then Eric for Harry. Can’t be any worse. Shame we can’t sub off more. Balancing longer term, new coach and an upgrade on what we have are the only way.

 

[SER19]

There's nothing wrong with the team or balance. Squad is among best in league but we're witnessing how important coaching is at top level.