How dominant USA would be in comparison to Brazil, France or Spain if their main sport is football?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by deafepl, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Jul 8, 2019

    patty123 New Member

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    Sorry, but I have being hearing that since the 70's when legends like Pele, Best, Cruyff etc went there, then it really ramped up after the 94 WC and here we are still asking the same question all these years later.

    I see the OP uses also the population angle, nah not for me, reason being Irish. Our Rugby team were ranked 2nd last year (USA 15th), yes second for a sport which is jointed fifth choice among those who like sports and I am pretty sure among our population of 6 million men women, oap's and children, that many don't like any sport at all never mind Rugby, same as Golf, we produced a masters champion, France and their massive population haven't.

    Women soccer in the Usa for some reason has always being more popular and played and watched then the men's game, watch the original 1984 Karate kid for proof.
  2. Jul 8, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    Look no further than the african continent for athletes genetically gifted in terms of strength, speed, agility. Not many of them, if any at all, are very good footballers.
  3. Jul 8, 2019

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

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    This has also helped lead to the unfortunate stereotype among many Americans that soccer is not a manly sport.
  4. Jul 8, 2019

    Abizzz Full Member

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    They do all drive cars and look how good they're doing in F1... I wouldn't take anything for granted. If they cared and invested they'd have same the chance as anyone else, but they don't (in sufficient numbers), so it's all pie in the sky.
  5. Jul 8, 2019

    Tom Cato Full Member

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    You're just mincing my words.

    What I wrote is that the number of football players in the USA is bigger than almost anywhere in the world. That is factual.

    What you're pracning on about is how many fans there are, and that is certainly up for debate.
  6. Jul 8, 2019

    Chipper Full Member

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    Poor facilities/coaching know-how though, innit?

    When African parents move to France and their kids are born there/grow up there with all that they win World Cups.
  7. Jul 8, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    I am talking about all the African players who were born or arrived early in Europe and grew up there. Many of them benefit from good to great genetics for football but still end up being average footballers.
    The AFCON is a good example of that, it is filled with players who hold at least 2 passports. Being a great athlete is a bonus to have but not the most important thing
  8. Jul 8, 2019

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

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    That’s leads to more of a “what if NASCAR and IndyCar didn’t exist” question.
  9. Jul 8, 2019

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    If Roman Empire didn't fall and Gladiators still existed, probably USA would also dominate that sport!
  10. Jul 8, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    No I'm not talking about the amount of fans, I'm talking about the amount of football players within a certain population. You literally said that football was bigger in the US because they have more people playing football which is wrong when that amount of people is proportionally inferior.

    You are mixing the raw amount of people playing a sport and the place of the sport within that country, as stated above only a small amount of these US football practitioners are adults. The game as a sport is small within athtletes as a group and it's far smaller than in the countries that you mentioned.
  11. Jul 8, 2019

    Flanders Devil New Member

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    Whilst I haven’t even heard of this book - these three factors would be my argument.

    The point relating to strong culture to me (again haven’t read the book, so apologies if it’s in there) also is to do with the fact that talent kids will therefore choose the ‘dominant’ sport over others. I would hazard a guess that a lot of multi talent kids will choose basketball/nfl/baseball etc over soccer if given the choice from a young age. Then you don’t get these kids who practice for hours and hours (theory from a Malcolm Gladwelll book that says you need 10,000!hours of practice to excel in something).

    This second point is probably what also sets China apart as not really an outlier - in Chinese culture the thing that is practised ad nausea is not even sport - it’s academia. So football is competing in a whole different culture there. Also the concept that China is wealthy and invests in sporting infrastructure is only true more recently.
  12. Jul 8, 2019

    do.ob Full Member

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    Nothing I have read about the US system makes me think it's actually good for the kids/talents:
    Having to pay tens of thousands of dollars a year just so your kid can play football and maybe get noticed is not an efficient way to bring up talent. Neither is the college system or leagues without relegations.


    In Germany for example the legal form of basically any amateur club is a non profit association, kids play and get trained for minimal fees and if they are gifted they will get noticed and have no trouble moving up the pyramid and join a pro team's academy, which go as far down as u12, at which point they probably have access to the highest level of coaching available.
  13. Jul 8, 2019

    Jib New Member

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    The best players in world started on the streets not with soccer moms !
  14. Jul 8, 2019

    Abizzz Full Member

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    Yeah but unlike other sports people can change between F1/Nascar/Indy within one career. The formula one drivers that do nearly always do really well in the other two (might be bias on my side because I guess I'd only notice those who do well). The Andretti's of this world all wanted to drive F1 at some point too (And won!). Without wanting to devalue Nascar or IndyCar (or rallying, DTM etc.) I do think there's a hierarchy in motor sports that doesn't exist in ball sports. The US has always hosted F1 races itself as well (at least as long as I can remember).
  15. Jul 8, 2019

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

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    Oh, I can definitely see F1 drivers doing well crossing over vs. the other way around. 95% of a NASCAR season involves only turning left.
  16. Jul 8, 2019

    ThinkTank@Cafe Full Member

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    I don't want to stir up a political controversy at the football forum...However, I feel obliged to offer a perspective from the Post-Soviet area. I grew up in a country, which was United States rival. And we had miserable lives. Even now, under mafia-like corrupt regime we live better than we used in Soviet Union.

    4 of 6 millions Kazakh died in 1930s during Stalin' genocide. My grandad was a last man survived in his family because his mother refused to kill their doe for meat to give him milk. Cannibalism was widespread. My parents generation lived a life pretty similar to life in Orwell books in terms of freedoms. Soviets exploded 500 hundred atomic bombs 180 away from a town where I was born. We have a disgusting museum in Medical Institute where you can see hundreds of embryos (unborn Kazakh kids) with three legs, eyes, etc. The Soviets allowed to breed cattle on pastures bordering the nuclear test site. Watch Chernobyl and you will get the idea. And that was Ukraine, where the Soviets cared about people a little bit.

    You take so many things for granted. Fair courts, law-abiding police, officials who are afraid to lose elections. And freedom of speech. America defeated the Soviets, and if you want to see how effective USA is look at differences between North and South Korea. They are spending billions of dollars for the world security. Do you know what is lend lease and Marshal plan? If not America, the West would become a Big Brother scene long ago.

    The video you brought up as an argument is the good example of freedom of speech and how self-reflecting and critical Americans are. i've seen a long ago. Problems discussed in the video do exist. But freedom to make videos like that, freedom to be a leftist, or Socialist, or a sophisticated deep thinking and little bit jealous European is supported by US Army and US Navy.

    I've done a Master degree in US and had a chance to know them as a people. I love America and grateful for freeing us from the f***ng Mordor called USSR.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  17. Jul 8, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    Are you mad? You are in Carolina, Nascar country, some people will hunt you for these words.
  18. Jul 8, 2019

    mitchmouse Full Member

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    I reckon they could win the World Cup in the next 8-12 years anyway
  19. Jul 8, 2019

    Tom Cato Full Member

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    Jesus man, this is such a pointless argument. Who cares about proportions? I've written several times now that the number of participants is bigger by number. Then why do you care so much that the percentile is lower?

    Listen: 2 million is bigger than 100 thousand. That means there are more football players in a country with 200 million ihabitants than there are in the country with 100 thousand and 1 inhabitants. Im done with this argument, so pointless.
  20. Jul 8, 2019

    Trip721 New Member

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    They would be as good as the US Women's National Team. The only pro sport for women in the US is soccer or basketball. Now if the only two major sports for men were soccer and basketball, i'd imagine they would be similar to the women's team.

    Which I think within 10 years won't be as dominate as more European club teams focus more on their women's program, which is only going to produce better players.
  21. Jul 8, 2019

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

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    To be fair, I openly tell people in S.C. that Nascar is a hobby and not a sport.
  22. Jul 8, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    They cannot even qualify for it
  23. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    :lol: Oh my god they can't even beat fecking Panama get real.

    The bizarre, unfounded brags about shit the U.S will/could do in football are absolutely bizarre, and it's been happening for decades.
  24. Jul 8, 2019

    Wal2Fra Full Member

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    I think you nailed it with your first paragraph.

    When you think about the number of non Americans who dominate in the MLB, the Scandinavians playing in the NHL, the DPOTY in the NBA is French & the MVP is Greek.

    Yet when it comes to football, not 1 American is looked at in any real regard, with the exception to Pulisic (who still needs to go and prove himself now he has a big move)

    Even with turning football into their first choice sport, building the infastructure & throwing other resources at the game, it would take atleast 20 years for them to reap any rewards. But 20 years from now, the European and south American footballing giants have another 20 years of history of their own added.
  25. Jul 8, 2019

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Cycling and Rowing are two of the most basic sports you can get technically.. doesn't come close to the technique and skills you need for sports like boxing, tennis, football etc etc. They're based on raw athleticism and endurance. Tough sports but not from a dexterity point of view. That is probably why the Brits find it easier to excel at it.. not to mention they're super middle class.

    US are definitely pound for pound more likelier to produce more exciting sportsmen IMO. The Brits aren't exactly renowned globally for producing thrilling sports stars.. even in a sport like football which is our bread and butter, we have the odd technician but generally speaking they're rarely the complete package i.e. skilful, athletic, winner and era/sports defining.
  26. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    Good thing that the UK has produced better boxers recently than the US then, Tyson Fury shits all over anything the US boasts in the most prestigious division. Technically one of the best boxers I've ever seen .. then you go down the divisions and see the likes of Joe Saunders, Warrington etc. Shit, even Amir Khan is a technically fantastic boxer. Andy Murray pre-injuries was a superb tennis player as well, we've had plenty of excellent athletes .. going down the F1 route Hamilton is currently the best driver. Maybe we don't produce 'sports stars' but we do produce excellent athletes across the field, hence managing to finish 2nd at the Olympics despite being dwarfed in terms of population by the US/China. And England's current generation of footballers/down the youth levels are pretty good, so 2/3 of the sports you mentioned requiring technique I'd argue we're doing pretty well at.

    The US would have the same issues as the UK in football in struggling to produce technicians, 100%.
  27. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    This post reads like a parody. Your view of history and the US is so misguided and idealistic that I wouldn't even know where to begin, and this definitely isn't the thread for it.

    As a side note, I don't hate the US, far from it. Respect it as a nation massively and believe it has a lot of good things going for it, mixed with a hell of a lot of bad .. basically pretty much every country ever.

    What I don't like though is people putting them on a pedestal, which is what you're doing. Doesn't sit right with me whatsoever and if I'm honest makes me feel more than a little uneasy.
  28. Jul 8, 2019

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    America is big brother - NSA, Snowden!
  29. Jul 8, 2019

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    Sounds what we've heard in the 70s.
    It's seen as a sport for women there and more importantly it's extremely expensive. As long as US Soccer keeps the low income demographic out nothing will change.

    There is no culture where kids play Soccer on the street. They play Basketball.
  30. Jul 8, 2019

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    Lots of quality Europeans and Africans in the NBA. USA is losing their dominance in Basketball at least.
  31. Jul 8, 2019

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    They didn't dominate, but they very strong in the 50s - 70s.
  32. Jul 8, 2019

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Tyson Fury is class as was Lennox but you’re comparing it to a nation which produces Muhammad Ali, and if we’re going into lower weights we’re talking Sugay Ray Robinson and Leonard.. complete packages in every sense of the word. They had a flair which was untouchable and all round brilliance which was untouchable. You’ve got Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather and the best you’re going to throw at me is Amir Khan who is technically flashy but not the complete package as defensively he’s shite.

    Murray is UK best tennis player in 75 years and even then he had to pretty much carve his own route to glory outside the British set up and trained in Spain etc and even then as much as I rate him as a skilful player he’s still not as successful as a McEnroe, Connors, Agassi, Sampras and women’s game you have a lot more US winners.

    F1 is not really a good yard stick because again there’s limits to discussions of technical dexterity in a sport which involves cars but even then when has the US ever taken F1 seriously so that isn’t a sport we can use to cross compare properly.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  33. Jul 8, 2019

    ThinkTank@Cafe Full Member

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    It is not a parody. It’s history of my people and my family. You make dismissive and ridiculing comments about my post without putting any arguments. I wasn't putting America on pedestal, I just expressed my gratitude and appreciation to American people who stood a big fight against evil. I can back my arguments with numbers, stats and historical evidences.

    I respect you as an opponent although it's really difficult to do.

    You know, in 1930s Stalin used to call people who undermined and questioned Western values and military power "useful idiots". They've not gone extinct. Putin uses them now in the same way.

    At @Classical Mechanic, a Big Brother is totally controlled media and means of communication. China put a Great China Firewall and denied their nationals access to worldwide net. China put 1.5 million of Kazakhs and Uighurs in concentration camps. They are building "smart houses", which monitor their inhabitants 24/7. They are creating cities where cameras identify and follow citizens every second. Plus a social rating. They attach a score to each Chinese analyzing their daily lives. On the basis of that score, Communist Party then decides wether a Chinese man or woman is worthy of getting public services and other goods. A so called "Big Eye" is now being tested in Xingjian and soon will be spread all over China. This is what Big Brother is. Snowden is another useful idiot.

    If you guys lived on the other side of the fence you'd appreciate what you have, not ridicule it.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  34. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    Uh, Khan clearly wasn't the best I could throw at you. I just used him as an afterthought. Mayweather is retired .. I gave you multiple current British champions at numerous weights, including the lineal champion who made Wilder look like a child in their fight.

    The point is there's been plenty of technical British athletes, about what you'd expect or more considering our population. Comparing us to a country of over 300 million people is pretty absurd, of course we're not on the same level playing field .. and even then when it comes to sports we start taking seriously and invest money in, we can match anybody. As our current boxing generation is showing.
  35. Jul 8, 2019

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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  36. Jul 8, 2019

    Stacks Full Member

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    I feel people are using the USA Woman's success as a barometer but aren't they virtually the only Women who actually play football? What I mean is that I saw a tweet that suggested 70% of all women's footballers are in the USA so perhaps other nations don't take it seriously so there is no competition. The USA could never dominate football as it is huge in other countries and virtually no side dominates. The competition is too high. They could probably become as good as England.
  37. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    The history of your people and your family has nothing to do with the fact that the USA as a nation is not the way you're portraying it. Stop conflating the two in order to get an emotional rise, it's ridiculous. Your posts read like a parody.

    And the reason I'm not putting up arguments is because this is not the thread to discuss the US and it's role in history, it's you that's trying to force this weird agenda on to the thread. It's a thread about US football, not 'how much propaganda can we regurgitate' so feck knows why you're talking about Stalin, the marshall plan, whatever.

    You love the US and think it's the big hero of history, deciding to ignore large chunks of it. It's a very simplistic view but you're entitled to it, but I have no idea why a 'the US isn't as efficient as you're making out' had to turn in to 'THE US SAVED US FROM THE COMMUNISTS BE MORE THANKFUL FOR YOUR WESTERN VALUES YOU OWE EVERYTHING TO THE US' .. it's downright fecking bizarre.

    Seriously, just to re-iterate: I have no interest in discussing U.S influence/political history here. This is a thread about football/us sport.
  38. Jul 8, 2019

    SquishyMcSquish New Member

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    Yeah, it's a stupid comparison. Women's football in general has been treated with disdain in most countries and as more of a hobby/amateur gig rather than anything professional.

    The U.S (to their credit) embraced the women's game and treated it professionally, and are reaping the benefits of that, which is obviously fantastic. But the situation would be entirely different if the U.S wanted to try and dominate men's football, an arena which is already taken incredibly seriously by a number of nations.
  39. Jul 8, 2019

    Valencia's Left Foot New Member

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    Giants? NFL Wide receivers, running backs, defensive backs are not giants for the most part, much smaller and slimmer in stature, ridiculously fast and quick, great body control and eye-hand/foot coordination. Many would be great at soccer if they started early and invested as much time into it as they did in American football. Not saying that the US would dominate the world, but at a minimum they would be much better than they are right now. You still have to mold kids and train them properly, which the US has still not figured out how to do, but I would prefer to work with and mold the kids with the best athletic attributes and eye-hand/foot coordination as opposed to the second tier of athletes US soccer is currently getting. US needs more Pulisic's, that kid is amazing.
  40. Jul 8, 2019

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's Scout

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    I'm talking specifically about the giants who play NFL, not everyone who plays in the NFL. I'm well aware that there are normal sized dudes playing.