Seen this argument come around from time to time so would be interesting to know the Caf's thoughts
How far off is this squad from a title challenge?
- Thread starter jamesjimmybyrondean
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
However long Klopp/Pep are still around.
Defensive reinforcements and a new manager. Let's be honest that's what the thread was going to turn to anyway. Might as well get it out of the way early
You do realize that we're ahead of City now, don't you?
If you stood on a very tall hill with very strong binoculars... you still couldn't see them. That's how far.
There's enough quality in the squad to make a challenge, especially in a season where there's been no standout so far, but I suspect Ole just isn't a good enough manager to knit it together to do that.
You're right but what I meant specifically was how many players away are we from having a title challenging team- A new manager
- A new GK (or possibly Henderson)
- A new CB to partner Maguire
- A DM specialist
It's not a dig at Ole but with a top level staff I would say pretty close because we have the talent. With a staff that isn't top level I don't know but it's possible, Leicester under Ranieri being an example.
I think we're still short a good forward too. Nothing one good transfer window couldn't fix.
I agree with this. We aren't far off a decent challenge in my opinion, if everything goes well. I think we should be expecting a challenge at the very least with this squad.
To win it? Another top class striker, a top class wide forward and a DM. I know everyone is hating our defence right now but it's not where I'd put my money. Our attack is a far greater concern to me.
Oh, and a new manager.
The squad isn't far off at all. In some games, it's easily good enough.
The problem is our defensive organisation. The backline has no structure and requires a defensive minded midfield to make it work.
If we could bring in a coach who specialises in that area, we'd be in with a shout this season imo. The attack is already as dangerous as anybody's.
The problem is our defensive organisation. The backline has no structure and requires a defensive minded midfield to make it work.
If we could bring in a coach who specialises in that area, we'd be in with a shout this season imo. The attack is already as dangerous as anybody's.
City (H), Sheffield (A), Leeds (H), Leicester (A), Wolves (H), Villa (H)
6 games until the end of the festive period. Take at least 15 points in this period and then we can talk.
6 games until the end of the festive period. Take at least 15 points in this period and then we can talk.
Should be making a challenge now, albeit it may be a bit of a falsehood, but it would then turn serious next season.
Under normal circumstances we'd be another 2-3 solid signings away from challenging, but this season is not normal. While I don't expect a title challenge, I still remain hopeful.
The moment City starts a new "rebuild" and Liverpool shake off their injuries, I fully expect us to be at least 10 points behind both. In other words, we can't chill even if we end up doing good this season. The reality is that we lack quality to win under regular circumstances.
The moment City starts a new "rebuild" and Liverpool shake off their injuries, I fully expect us to be at least 10 points behind both. In other words, we can't chill even if we end up doing good this season. The reality is that we lack quality to win under regular circumstances.
Should be able to push for the title already.
What were the favorites at the start of the season? Liverpool and Manchester City, the former has shown some cracks but remain favorites, the former is going through a rough season and it may be signaling the end of the Pep era.
Tottenham is a surprise but there are question marks. Chelsea has a completely revamped squad so it's hard to put them as favourites just yet.
In fact, this looks the ideal season for a title push. Every candidate has issues, minor or major.
If their form remains the same, Liverpool is on for about 83 points. That is achievable for a squad of our caliber, albeit not easy.
The real question is, can Ole guide this squad to be title contenders? Sadly, the answer to this is becoming more and more clear.
What were the favorites at the start of the season? Liverpool and Manchester City, the former has shown some cracks but remain favorites, the former is going through a rough season and it may be signaling the end of the Pep era.
Tottenham is a surprise but there are question marks. Chelsea has a completely revamped squad so it's hard to put them as favourites just yet.
In fact, this looks the ideal season for a title push. Every candidate has issues, minor or major.
If their form remains the same, Liverpool is on for about 83 points. That is achievable for a squad of our caliber, albeit not easy.
The real question is, can Ole guide this squad to be title contenders? Sadly, the answer to this is becoming more and more clear.
You're not winning much when you're three best paid players are amongst the most inconsistent players at the club.
How far apart are the North and South pole...?
Probably that far I'd say.
Now with a better manager and at least 3 more first team players we might have a chance.
Probably that far I'd say.
Now with a better manager and at least 3 more first team players we might have a chance.
A new manager and coaching staff away from a tittle challenge (and CB to replace slabhead)
If we only look at football talents of players, it's very close.
Problems are the other things surrounding or the bodies embodying those talents, that are just not enough. So far from ready to challenge.
Problems are the other things surrounding or the bodies embodying those talents, that are just not enough. So far from ready to challenge.
Until we use the players we have in a settled manner (injuries accepted), it’s impossible to know what the team is capable of. Ole chops and changes far too much in his formation and team selection, which prevents players from building a rhythm and an on pitch understanding between individuals.
These stats for the current season show the problem clearly.
Manchester United under Solskjaer 2020-21 season
(Premier League and Champions League Matches Only)
Total: P16 W9 D1 L6 F34 A27
4-2-3-1 system
P11 W6 D1 L4 F22 A20
4-4-2 diamond system
P3 W2 D0 L1 F8 A3
3-4-1-2 system
P2 W1 D0 L1 F4 A4
Different defensive combinations used this season:
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw - 6 times
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Telles - 5
De Gea; Fosu-Mensah, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Bailly, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Tuanzebe, Lindelof, Shaw, Telles - 1
Henderson; Wan-Bissaka, Tuanzebe, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Telles - 1
Different midfield combinations used this season:
McTominay, Fred, Fernandes - 5 times
Pogba, Matic, Fernandes - 2
Pogba, McTominay, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Fred, Pogba, Van de Beek - 1
McTominay, Fred, Pogba, Fernandes - 1
Van de Beek, Matic, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Fred, Fernandes - 1
Fred, Van de Beek, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Van de Beek, Fred, Fernandes - 1
McTominay, Pogba, Van de Beek - 1
Matic, McTominay, Fernandes - 1
Different attacking combinations used:
Greenwood, Rashford - 3 times
Mata, Martial, Rashford - 3
Greenwood, Martial, Rashford - 2
Mata, Rashford, James - 2
Rashford, Cavani, Martial - 2
James, Martial, Rashford - 1
Rashford, Martial - 1
Greenwood, Martial - 1
Greenwood, Cavani, Martial - 1
We can’t go on like this and expect to win things.
And if we appoint a DOF, how on earth does he scout players using Ole’s preferred style of play as a template?
These stats for the current season show the problem clearly.
Manchester United under Solskjaer 2020-21 season
(Premier League and Champions League Matches Only)
Total: P16 W9 D1 L6 F34 A27
4-2-3-1 system
P11 W6 D1 L4 F22 A20
4-4-2 diamond system
P3 W2 D0 L1 F8 A3
3-4-1-2 system
P2 W1 D0 L1 F4 A4
- Solskjaer has not started with the same XI in back to back games this season.
- The 4-1 win against Newcastle and 0-0 draw against Chelsea are the only Premier League games in which he has named an unchanged starting line-up
- United have gone behind in 10 of their 16 Premier League and Champions League matches this season
- United have conceded at least twice in seven of those 16 games
- Nine - a third - of the 27 goals shipped this season in those 16 games have come in the first 20 minutes of matches
- In the 3-2 defeat to Leipzig, the back five and goalkeeper David De Gea cost a combined £227.7 million
Different defensive combinations used this season:
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw - 6 times
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Telles - 5
De Gea; Fosu-Mensah, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Bailly, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Tuanzebe, Lindelof, Shaw, Telles - 1
Henderson; Wan-Bissaka, Tuanzebe, Maguire, Shaw - 1
De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Telles - 1
Different midfield combinations used this season:
McTominay, Fred, Fernandes - 5 times
Pogba, Matic, Fernandes - 2
Pogba, McTominay, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Fred, Pogba, Van de Beek - 1
McTominay, Fred, Pogba, Fernandes - 1
Van de Beek, Matic, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Fred, Fernandes - 1
Fred, Van de Beek, Fernandes - 1
Matic, Van de Beek, Fred, Fernandes - 1
McTominay, Pogba, Van de Beek - 1
Matic, McTominay, Fernandes - 1
Different attacking combinations used:
Greenwood, Rashford - 3 times
Mata, Martial, Rashford - 3
Greenwood, Martial, Rashford - 2
Mata, Rashford, James - 2
Rashford, Cavani, Martial - 2
James, Martial, Rashford - 1
Rashford, Martial - 1
Greenwood, Martial - 1
Greenwood, Cavani, Martial - 1
We can’t go on like this and expect to win things.
And if we appoint a DOF, how on earth does he scout players using Ole’s preferred style of play as a template?
This time next year Rodney we'll be millionaires!
1st Tier MUST HAVE
1. Goalkeeper (maybe Henderson is the answer, not seen enough of him; we're getting nowhere with De Gea for sure)
2. Centre Mid with strong defensive skills
2nd Tier NICE TO HAVE
3. Right Back (AWB can be easily upgraded IMO, another player who has one world-class ability and average to poor at everything else)
4. Right Winger
1. Goalkeeper (maybe Henderson is the answer, not seen enough of him; we're getting nowhere with De Gea for sure)
2. Centre Mid with strong defensive skills
2nd Tier NICE TO HAVE
3. Right Back (AWB can be easily upgraded IMO, another player who has one world-class ability and average to poor at everything else)
4. Right Winger
A lot. Football isn't about putting names on paper and drawing dots and arrows. This club needs a shattering of all illusions and i'm not talking solely about the manager.
So you have analyzed the team so far this season and worked out we need a new keeper as our number one priority?!
Wow.
In answer to your question a long way.
- we need to remove and replace players who are either not good enough, not part of boss' plans or sadly past their sell by date. ( mata, matic, jones, rojo, lingard, TFM, Ighalo, romero)
- we need to remove disruptive influences/sulkers ( pogba, possibly Martial)
- we need to invest in the following positions to challenge for the first team RB, CB, CM, and Jack Grealish.
-we need to create style of play, and have strong managerial leadership we simply do not have this at the moment and this is why we are so inconsistent. Maybe a DOF is the answer.
A long way to go, that said we have some excellent young players in 23's and 18's, and we can beat anyone on our day.
- we need to remove and replace players who are either not good enough, not part of boss' plans or sadly past their sell by date. ( mata, matic, jones, rojo, lingard, TFM, Ighalo, romero)
- we need to remove disruptive influences/sulkers ( pogba, possibly Martial)
- we need to invest in the following positions to challenge for the first team RB, CB, CM, and Jack Grealish.
-we need to create style of play, and have strong managerial leadership we simply do not have this at the moment and this is why we are so inconsistent. Maybe a DOF is the answer.
A long way to go, that said we have some excellent young players in 23's and 18's, and we can beat anyone on our day.
It will be a huge achievement if we finish in the top 2. I think we can.
Thiago and Partey instead of Matic and Mctomminy. We would be title contenders.
What is so fustrating, these two were available in the summer.
What is so fustrating, these two were available in the summer.
It's very close but still very far
Close
The club has some top quality players in the side. Bruno, VDB, Henderson, DDG, Greenwood, Rashford.....you name it, we have it. It's evident that the side is poorly managed from top to bottom (CEO level, management and coaching level etc). However this is quite in the open now and surely there's a limit to how much the Glazers will tolerate that. After all, money matters to them and having this sad group throwing a billion out of the window and getting 3 consecutive managers wrong is border ridiculous. So something is set to change at the point. I won't be surprised if we swiftly move to a DOF to appease the furious Ole groupies who are set to see their hero kicked out of the club
Far
As said we have some top quality players. However some players lack the characteristics to do well. DDG is a small box keeper, Maguire is painfully slow, McT/Fred are clearly not good enough, Pogba wants out and Martial is not consistent enough. There are tough decisions to be made and that will require time
Close
The club has some top quality players in the side. Bruno, VDB, Henderson, DDG, Greenwood, Rashford.....you name it, we have it. It's evident that the side is poorly managed from top to bottom (CEO level, management and coaching level etc). However this is quite in the open now and surely there's a limit to how much the Glazers will tolerate that. After all, money matters to them and having this sad group throwing a billion out of the window and getting 3 consecutive managers wrong is border ridiculous. So something is set to change at the point. I won't be surprised if we swiftly move to a DOF to appease the furious Ole groupies who are set to see their hero kicked out of the club
Far
As said we have some top quality players. However some players lack the characteristics to do well. DDG is a small box keeper, Maguire is painfully slow, McT/Fred are clearly not good enough, Pogba wants out and Martial is not consistent enough. There are tough decisions to be made and that will require time
Yeah I believe so, #1 priority for me. I believe our strikers will improve, we will be scoring more goals from chances we create (and we create enough). But I have little faith in De Gea turning it around - you can disagree on that, but you can't argue he's been consistently poor.
It's a reasonable squad, probably better than the ones we've generally had over the last seven years, but there are still some gaping holes (notably at CB, central midfield and RW).
Overall, I would say that the players are quite a bit more talented than the staff who are coaching them.
Overall, I would say that the players are quite a bit more talented than the staff who are coaching them.
Roughly 81 miles.
It depends on how strong the competition is really. If Liverpool/City keep getting close to 100 points its simply no chance.
80-85 though i think we could manage.
----------------Henderson--------------
-----AWB--Maguire--???---???-----
---------------Fred----???----------------
----------------Bruno---------------------
Greenwood--???----Rashford---
We got the spine of a good team, but lack the finishing touches of a great one. We need a good CB to partner Maguire, a quality LB, a quality DM. Martial is good enough if he plays like he did last season, but you never know when his form is going to fall of a cliff again.
Inn: Haaland or Sancho, if its the latter then Greenwood plays CF. Casemiro in a swap deal for Pogba, invent a age reversal potion and give it to Vidic and Evra
Out: Jones, Rojo, Baily, Lindgard, Pogba, Matic, Ighalo. Trim some fat from the wage bill and promote some youngsters
80-85 though i think we could manage.
----------------Henderson--------------
-----AWB--Maguire--???---???-----
---------------Fred----???----------------
----------------Bruno---------------------
Greenwood--???----Rashford---
We got the spine of a good team, but lack the finishing touches of a great one. We need a good CB to partner Maguire, a quality LB, a quality DM. Martial is good enough if he plays like he did last season, but you never know when his form is going to fall of a cliff again.
Inn: Haaland or Sancho, if its the latter then Greenwood plays CF. Casemiro in a swap deal for Pogba, invent a age reversal potion and give it to Vidic and Evra
Out: Jones, Rojo, Baily, Lindgard, Pogba, Matic, Ighalo. Trim some fat from the wage bill and promote some youngsters
If you froze the age of this squad, I'd bet they'd never win the premier league - you need a little mental resilience to win, which this squad severely lacks, I could say the same for Wenger's Arsenal.
You could see Tuesday that they gave up at 2-0 then let a sloppy 3rd in, wasn't until it went 3-1 did they perk up a little, deep down they probably knew they wouldn't get anything, so decided to put on a little show.
Bruno sticks out like a sore thumb within this squad, whereas he should he seen as one of many, we need to start buying more like Bruno, players who have character.
You could see Tuesday that they gave up at 2-0 then let a sloppy 3rd in, wasn't until it went 3-1 did they perk up a little, deep down they probably knew they wouldn't get anything, so decided to put on a little show.
Bruno sticks out like a sore thumb within this squad, whereas he should he seen as one of many, we need to start buying more like Bruno, players who have character.
A few more top quality players, new manager and a complete redo of the boards long term goals and plan to take us to that next level. Knowing us we’ll just keep on sliding along as we have being doing these last 7 years and when the current plan fails, move onto the next and the cycle repeats itself. So all in all I don’t find ourselves properly challenging for the title. Finishing 3rd is about the best it’s gonna get IMO.
Well, according to the Glazers, we're ready for one now.
We're a good 2-3 seasons off though, we need a stable and reliable defence, better tactics, better coaching, players with better mentality and fight and be more consistency.
We're a good 2-3 seasons off though, we need a stable and reliable defence, better tactics, better coaching, players with better mentality and fight and be more consistency.
Bruno Fred Thiago midfield would have been mint
A striker, top wide players on both flanks, an elite fullback or maybe even on both flanks and probably another top midfielder (defensive mid at the very least + another versatile player at the level of a DvB at the least or Bruno). We're miles away and this team has to first accept that they'r shit and not a fake top squad of players. Take responsibility for rebuilding the winning ethos at the club and actually travel the road with boots on the ground. That is even further away.
An injury to Bruno Fernandes.
Additions
1 Competent Manager
1 RW
1 CB to partner Maguire
1 CDM
1 Paul Pogba replacement
Subtractions
Ole
Pogba
1 Competent Manager
1 RW
1 CB to partner Maguire
1 CDM
1 Paul Pogba replacement
Subtractions
Ole
Pogba