How good are we?

Stack

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Its interesting nobody is mentioning them and I think its probably partly because they arent considered a "big" team but I think Leicester are a better "team" than us. I think right now 3rd is our most accurate ranking in the EPL on this seasons play etc.
 

cyril C

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We are currently 60 points after 30 games, so 2 points per game on average.

Forget about the 100 points season and the other one that you can get away with 7x points. In general, 2 points per game meant you are within Top 4, comfortable Top 4, but possibly 2nd or 3rd place, not good enough to lead the pack.

City is at 2.38, which is about the historical average of pack leader.
 

El Jefe

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On the same level as the likes of a fully fit Dortmund, Atletico, Inter Milan and Chelsea. If we were to play these teams in a best of 5 match series I'd rate our chances around 50/50. I suppose you could add Leicester in there as I don't think there's much between us and them at full strength.

The likes of Barca, Real and Juve, while not at their best are still much better than us. We're in the EL in back to back seasons so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
 

RedDevilzFox

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I am trying to remember the last time a team played shit football and dominated the league and CL? Simply doesn't happen and that's who we are.
 

Green_Red

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We've draw 9 games this season in the league. If we'd won 4 of those we'd be 6 points off City with a game in hand right now. That's how close we could have been with 8 games left to play. We need two big signings to improve the starting XI next season or we won't be challenging for top spot.
 

BaillyBaillyBailly

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We've draw 9 games this season in the league. If we'd won 4 of those we'd be 6 points off City with a game in hand right now. That's how close we could have been with 8 games left to play. We need two big signings to improve the starting XI next season or we won't be challenging for top spot.
Thing is that City will probably get more points next season than they did this. They started very poorly and then reverted to their 100pts a season form. Liverpool (unless Van Dijk comes back not the same player) will vastly improve next season. Chelsea will get more points next season than this.

We could make 2 decent signings (for example Bissouma and Sancho lets say for argument's sake) and improve by 10 points on this season and still be 2/3 and a way off city.
City have consistently bought well and aggressively for a few seasons now. Their depth is ridiculous. You could make an argument (not that I would necessarily agree with all of it) that the below is true:

Ederson > De Gea/Henderson
Cancelo > Shaw
Dias > Maguire
Stones > Lindelof
Walker > AWB
Rodri > Fred
Gundogan > Pogba
KdB > Bruno
Sterling > Rashford
Aguero > Cavani
Mahrez > Martial

Fernandinho > Matic
Foden > Greenwood
B. Silva > James
Laporte > Bailly
Zinchenko > Telles
Mendy > Williams
Torres > Diallo
 

RedDevilzFox

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We've draw 9 games this season in the league. If we'd won 4 of those we'd be 6 points off City with a game in hand right now. That's how close we could have been with 8 games left to play. We need two big signings to improve the starting XI next season or we won't be challenging for top spot.
Ifs and buts. If City had won 5 of those draws they'd be even further away. We are where we are.
 

jackal&hyde

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The following teams with a fully fit squad are "better" than us

City
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Juventus
Bayern
PSG

The following are probably at a similar level

Chelsea
Barcelona
Inter
Dortmund
This.

We are 2 or 3 first 11 players away to be amongst the best. You can argue for more players needed but all teams have weaker areas.
 

Bebestation

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For the first time in a long time I feel patient.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm personally okay with not asking about winning things within the next couple of years simply because I really like the way the team is slowly being built up. I know it's not the right thing to do, but I like what I see.

Under Moyes, LVG and Jose our squad seemed to get worse and worse bit by bit apart from a random big name signing once in a while.

Under Ole, there has been a wonderful reshaping of the squad with average players being loaned out or sold and it doesn't seem to stop. Last season you could feel that the club were reliant on players like Bailly or even Martial but fast forward another season and it's looking like these players may not be good enough for us either.

There is a high level of expectation, quality and versatility that is slowly being built up at United. The best way I can say this is about a player like VDB replacing Lingard. Il get laughed at for saying it because one is playing wonderful football right now, but VDB can be the better and more versatile version of Lingard even if Ole himself cant get the best out of him right now, another manager could. Another one is Wan Bissaka, we have a good defensively reliant fullback that helps us in some performances and will eventually be competing for his spot with an attacking fullback. This gives us a versatility in our squad to choose a defensive or attacking fullback depending on what we need at what time. The way Ole has managed to drop De Gea for Henderson is magnificent and we are/will be better defensively due to this.

Slowly players like Matic, Mata, Bailly, Jones will leave and maybe even players like Martial or Pogba maybe questioned about whether they are worth the wages they are on in the future.
 

Steve 007

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How good are we?

I’d say we are about two great players away from a title, but that doesn’t mean we’ll get them.
Add Haaland and a great centre back and we’d be there but getting those players isn’t easy and I don’t think we’ll get Haaland, I just hope he won’t go to city or Chelsea.

liverpool added a class goalkeeper and centre back and won the league.
City finished second and then added a great centre back and are winning the league.
A lot of people slagging Rashford but he’s a a consistant (2 seasons now) 20 goal striker, I’d expect Greenwood to push on now too. Just to point out he as a teenager has 13 goals only bettered by Rashford and Rooney top at 15 and look at the Rooney stats now.

I think or hope we’ll be in the mix next year
 

Red_toad

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Dear Redcafe,

I want to hear opinions on how good we are. We definitely have problems but we do win a heck of a lot of games.

As a grading system, where would we finish in the other top 5 leagues in Europe based on our current squad and form this season?
We’re the second best team in the Premier league, which is the best league in the world in my opinion. Speculation as to where we’d finish in leagues we don’t actually play in seems a tad odd question to ask? We have an unspectacular & effective team.
 

Hammondo

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We are much better than that.

Almost every ranking system has us between 6 and 10 in Europe.

euro club index has us at 8, ahead of Chelsea and Juventus, but behind Atletico.

538 has us at 6.

I would put us in the 6-9 group behind City, Munich, PSG, Barca, RM with Liverpool, Chelsea, Atletico.
We are in Europa League for a good reason.
 

Hammondo

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The PL is the best league in the world. I'm not sure I understand the logic. That would mean we were worse than every second place team in the top 6 leagues at least.
Maybe overall but the top of the PL is nowhere near the best compared to other leagues.
 

Buster15

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Good but not good enough.
We are not dangerous or imposing enough.
I do believe that with 2 or maybe 3 top signings, we could get to be good enough.
 

Trex

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We have some very good players
Fernandes, Pogba, Rashford, Maguire, Shaw, Awb.
Past it players
Matic, De gea, Mata, Cavani.
Lesser quality
Fred, Mctominay, Lindelof, Telles, Vdb.
Promising players
Greenwood, Henderson, Diallo.
Not good enough
James, Jones.
The first group are the reason we don't need to look excellent to win games, the third group(the first three players) are the reason we don't often look excellent even if those players are useful, we should be moving on everyone in the second group and fifth group.
Martial isn't categorized as he has the ability to be in the first group but this season hasn't shown it. Three more signings into the first group and we're talking title contention.
 

RashyForPM

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We’re very good, sometimes excellent on our day, and thankfully the amount of days we have are increasing. For example, against Leipzig, Leeds, Southampton, Sociedad etc, we handed out hammerings with brilliant, exciting football, which we almost never did under any of the three managers after Fergie.

We do also look clueless at times when teams are well organised, but generally, we are grinding results out too, which I sometimes appreciate more than rompings because you need to win without playing well to achieve big things.

In terms of our best 11, I’d say that the names good enough to challenge for the PL and CL are Henderson, Maguire, Shaw, Pogba, Greenwood, Bruno and Rashford. Add a few names to that, preferably Kounde, Rice/Ndidi and Sancho, and there’s no reason why we can’t progress to at least Atletico, Barca and Real’s level (title challengers in our domestic league).
 

Hammondo

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Thing is that City will probably get more points next season than they did this. They started very poorly and then reverted to their 100pts a season form. Liverpool (unless Van Dijk comes back not the same player) will vastly improve next season. Chelsea will get more points next season than this.

We could make 2 decent signings (for example Bissouma and Sancho lets say for argument's sake) and improve by 10 points on this season and still be 2/3 and a way off city.
City have consistently bought well and aggressively for a few seasons now. Their depth is ridiculous. You could make an argument (not that I would necessarily agree with all of it) that the below is true:

Ederson > De Gea/Henderson
Cancelo > Shaw
Dias > Maguire
Stones > Lindelof
Walker > AWB
Rodri > Fred
Gundogan > Pogba
KdB > Bruno
Sterling > Rashford
Aguero > Cavani
Mahrez > Martial

Fernandinho > Matic
Foden > Greenwood
B. Silva > James
Laporte > Bailly
Zinchenko > Telles
Mendy > Williams
Torres > Diallo
I disagree with Shaw.
 

YouOnlyLiveTwice

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Best we have been since Fergie left.

What we need is a few class Players to take us the next level.
 

ReddBalls

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Thing is that City will probably get more points next season than they did this. They started very poorly and then reverted to their 100pts a season form. Liverpool (unless Van Dijk comes back not the same player) will vastly improve next season. Chelsea will get more points next season than this.
United also startet poorly (actually, it was horrible). Liverpool were not pulling up any trees before Van Dijk was injured either (Villa beat them 7-2). Even if Chelsea improves, they'll probably end up behind United for the second season in a row this season. Why would these three teams improve and get more points while United won't? I don't understand your logic at all.
 
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jackal&hyde

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Its interesting nobody is mentioning them and I think its probably partly because they arent considered a "big" team but I think Leicester are a better "team" than us. I think right now 3rd is our most accurate ranking in the EPL on this seasons play etc.
We are ahead of them in the league and advanced further in Europe; how can they be better then us? It's fairly close as it stands, but if one team is better then it's us for sure.
 

Amarsdd

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United also startet poorly (actually, it was horrible) Liverpool were not pulling up any trees before Van Dijk was injured Even if Chelsea improves, they'll probably end up behind United for the second season in a row this season. Why would these three teams get more points while United won't? I don't understand your logic at all.
cause excuses like no preseason, injuries, mad schedule are good enough excuses for other teams but it's not allowed when it comes to United.
 

pacifictheme

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Weird one at the moment really. We might end the season second with a trophy but it also feels like city are a long way ahead still.
 

dal

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I think we are top 10 in the world now easily and we must never leave it ever again.

Ole has done a great job.

I believe the back room staff are key here. Phelan knows everyone he’s a great back room asset.
 

Lentwood

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I would say we have been consistently in the 'very good' category now since Bruno signed. There are multiple reasons for that improvement, beyond just Bruno joining the club, but I would say that was the catalyst for an improvement in form that we have maintained ever since.

Points per Game in 2019/20 BEFORE Bruno - PL = 24 PTS = 34 PPG = 1.42
Points per Game in 2019/20 AFTER Bruno - PL = 14 PTS = 32 PPG = 2.29

We have also reached four semi-finals in that time, so yes we need to kick-on and win a trophy but the fact we are going deep in multiple competitions and still performing well in the league is a very underestimated trait that a top team must have.

This season, we all know about the farce that was the shortened pre-season the teams who played in Europe had to deal with. The bare statistics show that teams who played in Europe post-lockdown suffered at the start of the season. Who wouldn't? Most of these teams had literally been on the beach two weeks before their first league game. I played my first pre-season game after lockdown yesterday and I thought I had kept fit (I've been running about 25/30Km per week and walking another 25/30Km)...I was very wrong! There's nothing that can prepare you for the intensity of games except games!

So, if we look at our first 5 games of this season, we struggled massively (as did City and many other top teams across Europe) and we picked up 7pts from 5 games against a mixed bag of opponents.

Points per Game First 5 Games - PL = 5 PTS = 7 PPG = 1.4
Points per Game Next 25 Games - PL 25 PTS = 53 PPG = 2.12

So, you can see that in general, since Bruno signed, bar an excusable anomaly at the start of this season, we average 2.18 PPG

IF we could average 2.18 PPG for an entire season (and we really haven't been far off doing that now) we would end up with 83pts. That would be a title-challenge, no doubt about it. I would argue (and I'm not sure many would disagree) that we haven't actually had a title-challenge post-SAF. The season we came 2nd under Jose stands out but we never once seriously threatened to win the league.

When you add into the mix that the general atmosphere around the club seems much better, the transfer policy seems much improved, we have genuinely high-quality young players breaking into the first team squad at the rate of about two per season and the fact that the bare, unanalysed league positions themselves have been much better....I don't see how anybody could have any gripes whatsoever with Ole currently.

The BIG question now is will the Board continue to back Ole? We have seen in the past that the Board appear not to invest once Champions League football appears secure, but I'm not sure it's as cut-and-dry as that. I firmly believe that the current set-up under Ed Woodward DO have ambitions to win titles an trophies, not at all costs but within our means, which are still substantial.

I am more positive than ever. I like this team. I like the structure that now appears to be in-place. I think if we could add a real top-quality CF we'd go very close next year and there's not another team in the league I would swap positions with right now, even City considering HOW they have achieved their success. No thanks, we know it's plastic, they know it's plastic, the world knows it's plastic.
 

Bobcat

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Our defense is very good. Lack a bit of depth at CB since the backups are made of glass, but other than that we are solid. Henderson should be #1 imo

Midfield is alright, but could be a lot better. McFred are solid vs the better sides, but provide little in terms of creativity and build up play. Pogba is top class on his day, but unfortunately only brings his best about 1/4 he plays and the other 3/4 hes either mediocre or downright diabolical. VdB is a bit of a mystery, hopefully he can have a Fred-like trajectory. Matic is terrible these days and a liability whenever he plays.

Attack is great on paper, but is really struggling these days. If MMM had kept up the form they showed post lockdown last season, i bet we would be flying and may have but up a genuine title challenge. Bruno and Rashford are both absolutely gassed, and the latter is also struggling with loads of small niggles. Greenwood is having a bad case of second season syndrome, but hes still just a teenager so that is to be expected. Martial has been horrendous this season and honestly should just be sold if anyone wants him. One thing is his lack of end product, but his lack of commitment is just unacceptable. Cavani, despite a purple patch at the start of the season, has turned out to be a pretty uninspired, stop gap signing.

The one player keeping us afloat right now is Bruno

We are decent, but are a ST, RW and CM away from being really great
 

ivaldo

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Maybe overall but the top of the PL is nowhere near the best compared to other leagues.
PL is top of the FIFA coefficient ratings and we have more teams left in European competitions than any other (5/7). Spain is the other other country with more than 2. It's been like that for the last few years. I'm confused why you think the PL is nowhere near the other top leagues and would be interested to know who the 14+ teams are that are better than us.
 

Andersons Dietician

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Think Scholes summed it up last night we have good players and game winners but we aren’t a good team.

I’d agree with that as something just isn’t right with the team. I‘m someone skeptical of the idea of a vast improvement this season. Before the season my target would have been to be 3rd and closer to Liverpool and City. We are currently in 2nd but neither Liverpool or Cit’s seem like the teams of last season and even then it’s a massive gap to city. So it’s hard to gauge how far we’ve come.

I don’t think we’ve reached the level or anywhere near the level we were at post lock down. Probably better to write this season off as a pass and judge next season.
 

Hammondo

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PL is top of the FIFA coefficient ratings and we have more teams left in European competitions than any other (5/7). Spain is the other other country with more than 2. It's been like that for the last few years. I'm confused why you think the PL is nowhere near the other top leagues and would be interested to know who the 14+ teams are that are better than us.
Because our best team city is not as good as several other teams, we are far behind city
 

Bilbo

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IMO there is still not enough 'slack' given in terms of the schedule we, and most other clubs competing in European competitions, have had to face this season. We still haven't had a single midweek or weekend break at all this season outside of International breaks. Quality of football has taken a hit because there simply isn't enough time to spend on the training field. It is match/recover/prepare/match over and over again.

Few top European clubs can claim to have improved this season. United are one of those that have improved. We are not playing the quality of attacking football that we were post restart, but our resilience has been outstanding and we are a very hard team to beat and are now good enough to impose our style on the majority of matches and dictate the game to the point where we can play how WE want to play.

Two attacking additions this summer and we will be a team that challenge for everything.
 

Glorio

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We are in Europa League for a good reason.
Not really a league though, it's a tournament and not always a true indication of a team's level - a bad game or two can have you kicked out with no chance of recovery. The 2 legged ties do make it a better judge than one off tie tournaments though
 

Chabon

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We’re probably gonna finish the season on about 75 points, which is level with the worst of our returns during SAF’s PL years.

In other words we’ve managed to drag ourselves back up to Fergie’s floor, but his ceiling still feels a long way away.
 

Water Melon

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Hopefully, good enough to finish second in the Prem and win Europa. Still miles behind the noisy neighbours.
 

Doracle

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Because our best team city is not as good as several other teams, we are far behind city
Bayern are the only team I think anyone sane would currently judge as better than City. Please can we have a list of the “several other teams” who are better than them?
 

mitchmouse

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Its interesting nobody is mentioning them and I think its probably partly because they arent considered a "big" team but I think Leicester are a better "team" than us. I think right now 3rd is our most accurate ranking in the EPL on this seasons play etc.
Leicester make up for what some people would see as "average" players by having a tactically astute manager and good coaching. Rogers is able to change things if Plan A isn't working, either with the players on the bench or - and this is where we fail the most - different set up/tactics. However much we can be grateful that he failed, he came very close to landing the title in his time with Liverpool and, to my mind, he has improved since then. Plus, it helps to have a Vardy who all by himself can usually score enough league goals to put Leicester right up there. Even after they sell players such as Mahrez or Kante they recruit cleverly
 

ivaldo

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Because our best team city is not as good as several other teams, we are far behind city
And what teams are they? I'd also still like to know the 14+ teams that are better than us.
 

Green_Red

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Ifs and buts. If City had won 5 of those draws they'd be even further away. We are where we are.
If your mother had a cock she'd be your father. We can only focus on our own team. The goal this year was to improve the points tally on last season, which we should improve, but not by enough. Those draws are the problem. This thread is about United, not City.
 

wolvored

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We went out at the group stage of the European Cup/Champions League. We are 2nd in the domestic league, but way off top. Its hard to compare result for result, or judging against playing in another league. What metric do we use as well? This season or the last 3 seasons or what? Does this include trophies won? We are not as good as the top teams thats all you can say.