How good are we?

[OverratedOpinion]

Dear Redcafe,

I want to hear opinions on how good we are. We definitely have problems but we do win a heck of a lot of games.

As a grading system, where would we finish in the other top 5 leagues in Europe based on our current squad and form this season?

 

[crossy1686]

Dear Redcafe,

I want to hear opinions on how good we are. We definitely have problems but we do win a heck of a lot of games.

As a grading system, where would we finish in the other top 5 leagues in Europe based on our current squad and form this season?

We're the second best team in England, which probably makes us about the 10th to 15th best team in Europe?

 

[Bilbo]

We have the foundations of a very good team. Cannot question our resilience, but we need attacking reinforcements.

 

[AshRK]

We are good to be a top 3 side in any other top 3 leagues but to win it could be a tricky thing. Maybe we would have been top in serie a this season. But we still need improvements to the squad irrespective of who we have as the manager.

 

[Ali Dia]

The next leap is the biggest one and we don’t make it without some inspired signings I’m afraid.

 

[Matriac]

Dear Redcafe,

I want to hear opinions on how good we are. We definitely have problems but we do win a heck of a lot of games.

As a grading system, where would we finish in the other top 5 leagues in Europe based on our current squad and form this season?

2nd in Bundesliga, 1st in Ligue 1 and Serie A. La Liga I'm a little uncertain of, potentially 1st since your usual suspects have been poor this year.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

We're the second best team in England, which probably makes us about the 10th to 15th best team in Europe?

I do believe that the league is the best gauge of where you are as a team but are we actually the second best team in England?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

2nd in Bundesliga, 1st in Ligue 1 and Serie A. La Liga I'm a little uncertain of, potentially 1st since your usual suspects have been poor this year.

La Liga is ironically the one I am most interested in. I just find us so hard to judge as I think we could beat any team in a one off game or over a 2 rounder. Yet we do seem to fluctuate so much in performance level if not results.

 

[SinNombre]

We're the second best team in England, which probably makes us about the 10th to 15th best team in Europe?

We are much better than that.

Almost every ranking system has us between 6 and 10 in Europe.

euro club index has us at 8, ahead of Chelsea and Juventus, but behind Atletico.

538 has us at 6.

I would put us in the 6-9 group behind City, Munich, PSG, Barca, RM with Liverpool, Chelsea, Atletico.

 

[SinNombre]

I do believe that the league is the best gauge of where you are as a team but are we actually the second best team in England?

We are at the same level as Liverpool and Chelsea, and all 3 clubs are in the bottom half of the top 10 in Europe.

 

[Offside]

Probably overall just about the best we’ve been since Fergie. We’re still several levels of the 2009-2013 team and far away from United teams previous to that. I still see the potential to go backwards without serious investment but I also see a title-challenging team with the right signings.

 

[RORY65]

I do believe that the league is the best gauge of where you are as a team but are we actually the second best team in England?

It's difficult to know what has happened to Liverpool this year and we're nowhere near the level they showed for the previous couple of years but we finished 3rd last season so with them dropping off so much it's not a huge leap for us to be 2nd, albeit there's obviously the chance that Liverpool will be back next season and Chelsea (who have already improved) will move up after a proper preseason with Tuchel. Overall I agree with the assessment that we're somewhere between 11 and 15 in Europe, in an average Champions League group we probably sneak through and then would be hoping to get a decent draw to go any further while we seem to have finally re-established ourselves as definitely one of the top 4 teams in England.

 

[BaillyBaillyBailly]

The following teams with a fully fit squad are "better" than us

City
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Juventus
Bayern
PSG

The following are probably at a similar level

Chelsea
Barcelona
Inter
Dortmund

 

[RUCK4444]

Your asking in the wrong place mate.

Whatever you do, just form your own opinion.

 

[T00lsh3d]

We’re pretty solid, just missing a few top quality players. The sides ahead of us have multiple match winners in their starting 11. We have Bruno....plus Pogba/Rashford on their good days

 

[Dookingham United]

I don't think that we are good. I think that we have had a good season.
Next year I think will be the test that will tell us if we are good or have just been lucky. What happens if we don't win those scrapped games we won this year or Chelsea and Liverpool regain the form that we all know they will? We have been having good results but we are not playing good football, that cannot last.

 

[predator]

We are only as good as our last opponent.



And even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[BaillyBaillyBailly]

We’re pretty solid, just missing a few top quality players. The sides ahead of us have multiple match winners in their starting 11. We have Bruno....plus Pogba/Rashford on their good days

This is true. if you rate players as "world class" I think the following are true
United: Bruno, Pogba
Liverpool: Van Dijk, Alisson, Robertson, Fabinho, Salah, Mane
City: Ederson, Dias, KdB, Gundogan, Sterling
Spurs: Kane, Son
Real: Ramos, Casemiro, Kroos, Modric, Benzema
Barca: Messi, Griezmann
Juve: Ronaldo, Bonucci, Chielini
PSG: Neymar, Mbappe, Navas, Verratti, Di Maria

If we could sign 2 top players this summer then we could begin to challenge again because the rest of our squad is good.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

People take results like tonight for granted now

it’s the sort of game and occasion that under Mourinho or van Gaal we would have played for a 1-1 or 0-1 and ended up losing

Solskjaer has brought a different mentality and some fans are overlooking it

United are good. I like the direction we’re going for the first time in 8 years

 

[Ekeke]

Fighting it out for 3rd in La Liga with Real, close or maybe ahead of Inter at the top of Serie A. Ahead of Leipzig in 2nd in Bundasliga

So behind several of the big teams - Atletico, Barcelona and Bayern but ahead of everyone else.

PSG are much better in the champions league than in the league it seems. Dont see any reason we wouldnt be ahead of them in the league, but in a knockout champions league game they can beat us

 

[el3mel]

Solid top 3 team who can nick a good cup run. Nowhere close to challenge for any major trophy like the league or CL, miles away from that in fact.

 

[bosnian_red]

538 soccer's global rankings (with SPI) are:

1. City (93.7)
2. Barca (92.1)
3. Bayern (90.7)
4. Liverpool (88.9)
5. Real Madrid (88.5)
6. United (88.0)
7. Chelsea (87.4)
8. Leipzig (85.8)
9. Inter (84.7)
10. Atalanta (83.8)
11. Juve (83.1)
12. PSG (82.7)
13. Atletico (82.5)
14. Ajax (82.4)
15. Dortmund (82.4)

Wouldn't agree with all of that, it goes up and down based on xG on a week to week basis depending on the opponent played over a certain period of time with the most recent games always weighed higher and higher, but it really would punish teams for taking it a bit easy in other league games if they can, and it definitely favors possession based teams more than anything. But I would have us top 8 for sure. Breaking it up into tiers, probably something like:

Tier 1:

• Man City
• Bayern

Tier 2:

• PSG
• Liverpool (full strength)
• Real Madrid
• Barcelona

Tier 3:

• Man United
• Chelsea
• Atletico Madrid
• Inter
• Juventus

Clear gap between tier 1 and 2, not so big a gap between tier 2 and tier 3 but the teams in tier 2 having a much higher potential level than the teams in tier 3. Basically the only league where we could be champions would be Serie A, and would be 2nd at best in the other top 5 leagues IMO.

 

[bosnian_red]

This is true. if you rate players as "world class" I think the following are true
United: Bruno, Pogba
Liverpool: Van Dijk, Alisson, Robertson, Fabinho, Salah, Mane
City: Ederson, Dias, KdB, Gundogan, Sterling
Spurs: Kane, Son
Real: Ramos, Casemiro, Kroos, Modric, Benzema
Barca: Messi, Griezmann
Juve: Ronaldo, Bonucci, Chielini
PSG: Neymar, Mbappe, Navas, Verratti, Di Maria

If we could sign 2 top players this summer then we could begin to challenge again because the rest of our squad is good.

Not sure how you can call Robertson world class and not Shaw given it's not very close between them over the past year. Or Ederson given all the mistakes he makes. Sterling and Son are both very good but IMO not better than Rashford if fit. Griezmann is long removed from being world class, though they have others like De Jong who could probably argue for being up there. Bonucci and Chiellini long removed from that class, Maguire is a much better CB these days. Di Maria and Navas are good but not world class at all.

 

[Jezpeza]

We are a very good team. In the top 10 in the world definetely at the moment.

We’ve Got 4 big holes in the side at cb, cdm, rw and striker before we can properly gauge it imo. 4 players from having a line up people post in 20 years and go ‘remember that side?’. Just think, If you added top players in the two defensive positions, a 30 goal striker and a bag of goals and assists from rw rather than the square pegs in round holes we play there we would be a considerable threat to city over 38 games and we would probably have the stronger squad to help progress in cups. James martial greenwood could be our second choice and rotation front 3.

this summer will show the owners ambition vs the fans

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't think that we are good. I think that we have had a good season.
Next year I think will be the test that will tell us if we are good or have just been lucky. What happens if we don't win those scrapped games we won this year or Chelsea and Liverpool regain the form that we all know they will? We have been having good results but we are not playing good football, that cannot last.

Didn't they say that last year? What form did Chelsea have that they will regain? We are having good results because we control most games we play, opponents don't create much against us and we create enough to win. Sure we aren't as fluid as some would like, but that doesn't mean we aren't effective (and no, it's not just overperformance or just being clinical). Liverpool sure, they have a higher potential than us based on what they showed previously with Van Dijk/Gomez, but at the same time, motivation played a big part, and once you win it once, it's not so easy to sustain success. Truth is that we've been the 2nd best team in the premier league since Bruno Fernandes signed. Last season since his signing we got more points than any other club, this season we are 2nd only behind City. We are a good team, but not as good as City. That's where we are at.

 

[BaillyBaillyBailly]

Not sure how you can call Robertson world class and not Shaw given it's not very close between them over the past year. Or Ederson given all the mistakes he makes. Sterling and Son are both very good but IMO not better than Rashford if fit. Griezmann is long removed from being world class, though they have others like De Jong who could probably argue for being up there. Bonucci and Chiellini long removed from that class, Maguire is a much better CB these days. Di Maria and Navas are good but not world class at all.

Agree with some of this, but:
Alisson makes more mistakes than Ederson for me. Ederson is probably the most consisten keeper in the league.
Sterling and Son for me are better players than Rashford.
I would argue that Navas is criminally underrated and he always performs on the big stage.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We are good. Running out of steam in a season where everyone is running out of steam, while as have had the toughest calendar in Europe probably.

One of the world top counter attacking sides, we clearly are less impressive in games where we have the ball. Not clear that ole will ever be able to change that. Defensively I believe we are good on balance but need a midfield that can play both directions.

As a few have said, I don't see how we progress from here. I can't see ole improving the team beyond here without more quality across the pitch, and the club have been so poor at delivering that

 

[bosnian_red]

Agree with some of this, but:
Alisson makes more mistakes than Ederson for me. Ederson is probably the most consisten keeper in the league.
Sterling and Son for me are better players than Rashford.
I would argue that Navas is criminally underrated and he always performs on the big stage.

Each to their own for Sterling and Son, stats wise Rashford had more goals last season and has more goals this season than Son, while Rashford is outscoring Sterling this season as well. Sterling is a very good player, but I don't think overall that there is much different between him and Rashford in terms of their individual level, that it's more a result of City's system any perceived difference but I'll accept that's just my opinion.

Ederson I really can't agree with though. He's an average at best goalkeeper who is comfortable with the ball at his feet. It's like when people claimed Victor Valdes was an amazing goalkeeper just because Pep's Barca had a good defensive record. Not for me. It's a result of the system, nothing to do with the individual quality. Allisson makes plenty of mistakes these days but I'd say there's a huge difference between him this season and him last season or the year before. Ederson has been largely consistent, average at "goalkeeping" things but excels at playing out from the back.

 

[FatTails]

Our wage bill and value of our squad dwarfs all but a handful of clubs in the world, so we are naturally pretty good. I don’t think people appreciate how much of an advantage premier league clubs have, and then by extension, an even bigger advantage the biggest clubs in the premier league have. Granada sit 9th in La Liga and their record transfer is 7m.

The question is, considering our huge advantage, are we underperforming or performing to the level expected? I don’t know.

 

[RedTiger]

People take results like tonight for granted now

it’s the sort of game and occasion that under Mourinho or van Gaal we would have played for a 1-1 or 0-1 and ended up losing

Solskjaer has brought a different mentality and some fans are overlooking it

United are good. I like the direction we’re going for the first time in 8 years

This.

Under the previous managers we probably would have played for the 0-0 and then tried to win it at home. Regardless of our poor passing, ball control and finishing tonight, at least it was evident that we were trying to get the second goal.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Our wage bill and value of our squad dwarfs all but a handful of clubs in the world, so we are naturally pretty good. I don’t think people appreciate how much of an advantage premier league clubs have, and then by extension, an even bigger advantage the biggest clubs in the premier league have. Granada sit 9th in La Liga and their record transfer is 7m.

The question is, considering our huge advantage, are we underperforming or performing to the level expected? I don’t know.

We are second behind one of the two clubs in the league richer than ourselves.

I do think football is more complex tha. Just wage bill. If you flip flop manager go manager with poor planning you'll end up with bloated wage bills. Fairly nuts how much ole has reduced our wage bill while increasing the quality on the pitch

 

[Mibabalou]

We didnt even get out of a group with PSG, Lepizig and Istanbul Baskikihir.

 

[foolsgold]

We're decent and improving but there is still much to do. Certainly miles away from the elite level of City and Munich, but in the chasing pack.

 

[JakeC]

PSG, City, Bayern
Barca, Madrid, Liverpool,
Juventus, Inter, Man utd, chelsea

 

[noodlehair]

Every team in England outside of City, who can change half their players for every game, looks exhausted and rubbish at the moment. So its difficult to judge.

Consistency is our problem outside of that. The level difference of our players between the first team and immediate back up is very large in too many instances, and even a lot of our first choice players can fluctuate between being up there with the best in the world and looking like one of the celebrity players from soccer aid.

 

[KennyBurner]

We have the foundations of a very good team. Cannot question our resilience, but we need attacking reinforcements.

We need better midfielders than attackers. A quality DM that can dictate play for us would be better than any attacker. Think about how many games we can hold unto the ball. What will any attacker be able to do about that? Tired of Fred having an inconsistent touch and Matic just being tired. Pogba is also a winger than CM.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

We play bad almost every game but get results more often than not, so I don’t even know. We’re a weird team. I don’t enjoy the football we play though. We’re a bit of a chore to watch 3/4 of the time.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Anyone that watched the Champions League matches over the week then seeing our performance in the Europa League knows just how far we are. There's a lot of work to be done and our style is still not clear.

 

[ivaldo]

We're the second best team in England, which probably makes us about the 10th to 15th best team in Europe?

The PL is the best league in the world. I'm not sure I understand the logic. That would mean we were worse than every second place team in the top 6 leagues at least.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Not sure how you can call Robertson world class and not Shaw given it's not very close between them over the past year. Or Ederson given all the mistakes he makes. Sterling and Son are both very good but IMO not better than Rashford if fit. Griezmann is long removed from being world class, though they have others like De Jong who could probably argue for being up there. Bonucci and Chiellini long removed from that class, Maguire is a much better CB these days. Di Maria and Navas are good but not world class at all.

Consistency is the big factor. Robertson like many other names on OP's list had been fantastic for multiple seasons, this years Luke Shaw makes last seasons, and those years prior look like schoolboy performances. If Luke replicates this level for another year I'd call him a world class LB.

I agree with you on Rashford.