How good were Xavi and Iniesta pre-Guardiola?

VorZakone

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Did they improve significantly under Guardiola or were they already that good before he became Barca's coach?
 

Bojan11

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Xavi was the best player in the Euros in 2008.

You always felt watching Iniesta play that he'd be world class.
 

VorZakone

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Xavi was the best player in the Euros in 2008.

You always felt watching Iniesta play that he'd be world class.
It's interesting to acknowledge that Iniesta was 24 when Guardiola became coach. By normal standards one should be a relatively established player at that age.
 

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I remember we were linked to him in 2008 and I absolutely wanted that to happen. He was always a top player who gained more prominence because of Barca's dominance.
 

Bojan11

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It's interesting to acknowledge that Iniesta was 24 when Guardiola became coach. By normal standards one should be a relatively established player at that age.
That's because Pep wasn't a fool like Rijkaard. Rijkaard played him all over the pitch including holding midfielder.

The best thing Pep did for Iniesta was give him the settled position he needed rather than moving every game. There were the odd times when someone was injured that Pep played him on the left. But he was mostly played in CM for Pep.
 

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Iniesta won us the 2006 CL final coming from the bench. He singlehandedly changed the game in our favor and provided the through-ball when Eto'o scored the equalizer (at 3:06).

 

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Xavi was nearly sold in 2008 to Milan, he would have never become the player he was without Guardiola.
 

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Iniesta won us the 2006 CL final coming from the bench. He singlehandedly changed the game in our favor and provided the through-ball when Eto'o scored the equalizer (at 3:06).

Agreed. People always bring up Henke for turning that final but Iniesta was fantastic when he came on.
 

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XAVI PRE-GUARDIOLA

Xavi had 12 assists in 2001/02 (aged 21-22) although I cannot find a comprehensive video of that season.

Xavi in 2003/04 (age 23-24). 5 goals and 13 assists.


Xavi had 11 assists in 2004/05, and had a great start to his 2005/06 season before he got a knee ligament injured that ruled him out of the rest of the season.


6 goals and 6 assists in 2006/07, and 9 goals and 9 assists in 2007/08. That's despite the fact that Rijkaard didn't know how to use him properly.

Then there was this legendary international tournament performance:


INDIVIDUAL AWARDS: Xavi was voted La Liga Breakthrough Player of the Year in 1999. Likewise, he was voted Spanish Player of the Year in 2005.
 

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They were always destined be top midfielders but the clockwork like system Guardiola and Barcelona employed at the time maximized all their strengths and minimized whatever shortcoming they might have had that would have been exposed in a less synchronized and structured midfield.
 

MrMarcello

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Xavi was nearly sold in 2008 to Milan, he would have never become the player he was without Guardiola.
I want to hear more on this. Did the player want away? Why didn't it happen?

I disagree on the latter part. Had he come to United and teamed with Carrick and Scholes in a midfield trio behind the attacking trio of Ronaldo, Rooney, and Tevez, he'd still have hit great heights. That midfield trio would have passed opponents off the park weekly.
 

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I want to hear more on this. Did the player want away? Why didn't it happen?

I disagree on the latter part. Had he come to United and teamed with Carrick and Scholes in a midfield trio behind the attacking trio of Ronaldo, Rooney, and Tevez, he'd still have hit great heights. That midfield trio would have passed opponents off the park weekly.
It was actually Bayern he nearly joined but Guardiola convinced him to stay. Haha that looks good on paper but he wouldn't suited our fast paced counter attacking team back then. He was perfect for the tiki-taka Barcelona system.

He had a great Euro 2008 but before that he was just a bit part player for Rijkaard, it was only when Guardiola took charge he really excelled and produced his best football.
 

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They were always destined for greatness given their technical level and perception of space and ability to make 9 right decisions of 10. Guardiola was like the catalyst that helped them reach a level that was close to their absolute best - a bit like Sacchi for a lot of the great players at Milan in the late '80s and early '90s, and akin to what he did for Messi: the Argentine was going to be be a landmark player with or without Guardiola, but he helped him become a reference point as a False 9 with Müller-esque stats on top of his dazzling ability as an attacker. Xavi and Iniesta's ability was always there, but Guardiola added an extra dimension to their career in terms of crystallizing their ability by crafting perfect and complementary roles for both of them - which translated to their Spanish national team career as well.

For reference, Xavi was a star for Spain's 1999 U-20 World Cup winning team and one of the most impressive young players in La Liga in the late '90s - so he had a lot of potential to begin with. And after Barcelona signed Davids - which liberated Xavi, you could see him developing into one of the absolute best midfielders in club football as regards passing and controlling the game with the likes of mid 2000s Pirlo, and Scholes. And then of course, he had that incredible 2008 EURO ahead of Senna - reckon that was the period of time when he was truly elevated to a higher rung than Pirlo - though Aragonés still employed a system that was less predicated on possession relative to what was to come:
The Spain midfielder Xavi has been named the best player at Euro 2008 by Uefa's technical committee. The 28-year-old Barcelona midfielder, the heartbeat of his team's midfield during the tournament, was voted the Castrol player of the tournament by a nine-strong panel of Uefa's technical experts.
Link

Thus far, he had a consistently great record from a young age while being a cornerstone for Spain's EURO winning team and still having 5+ years of top level football in his tank. Based on that trajectory and his resume, it's very likely that he would have ended up as a one of the Top 15 central midfielders of all time because not many achieved the things he did by age 28. But the appointment of Guardiola (who understood Xavi and Barcelona's ethos given his past as the on-field midfield brain of Cruyff's Dream Team and status as Xavi's spiritual predecessor) and the system he devised - in terms of making magnifying Xavi's remit as the heartbeat of the greatest possession based team in football history, catapulted him from that hypothetical Top 15 strata to the All-Time elite (and a distinct midfield reference point with Rijkaard and Matthäus) given his status as the puppet-master behind the whole team, a lot of top shelf performance in major competitions and matches, the nature of Spain's dominance over the next half-decade, and the overall iconic nature of Pep's Barcelona (which matched the likes of '70s Ajax and Sacchi's Milan in terms of broader appeal and cultural influence).

Same goes for Iniesta - who possessed weaponry that Xavi didn't in terms of dribbling and breaking the shackles to spring forward in more attacking positions, and was highly rated by both Guardiola and Xavi as the next great midfielder in the conveyor belt. Had a late start for Barcelona and Spain compared with Xavi because of the presence of Deco, however, he was billed from the beginning as a major player for Barcelona with the likes of Fàbregas idolizing him. A star for Spain's U-20 World Cup Team and the U-19 team. Incredibly decisive when Xavi got injured in the 2005/06 season - he immediately became one of their most influential players as a starter with the likes Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o, and had a memorable performance in the final vs. Arsenal:
"Valdés was very good, Larsson was key... but that final was changed by Iniesta, when he came in in the second half. I could defend Van Bommel, but when Iniesta came in and started to turn around... after an hour I couldn't follow him. Iniesta killed me."
Link

Then the 2008 EURO. And then Guardiola based him team around the triumvirate of Xavi as the possession regulator, Iniesta as the needle player who could open up games with his dribbler and close control apart from being a complement to Xavi in possession, and Busquets as the intelligent and Guardiola-esque holder who aided these two and dropped into deeper positions. Iniesta would've been a great player even if Guardiola wasn't appointed, but again, the performances were magnified and Iniesta arrived at Laudrup level in terms of stature - with his displays in the 2010 World Cup and 2012 EURO adding another layer to the narrative.
 

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That's because Pep wasn't a fool like Rijkaard. Rijkaard played him all over the pitch including holding midfielder.

The best thing Pep did for Iniesta was give him the settled position he needed rather than moving every game. There were the odd times when someone was injured that Pep played him on the left. But he was mostly played in CM for Pep.
Rijkaard wasn't a fool, he had Iniesta as the 12th player with most minutes in the team when he was 21 y/o. The real problem with Iniesta is that he was great, but he had Deco and Xavi ahead of him (and people usually forget how good Deco was).

When Rijkaard turned into a fool was when he started playing a midfield of Deco, Xavi and Iniesta, trying them as holding midfielders and with a player with 0 defensive effort like Ronaldinho in the left wing. People thought we could stomp everyone with those guys and we didn't need Edmilson or Van Bommel, turns out we really needed players like that in our midfield.

As for Xavi, I'm probably being repetitive for anyone that can remember my opinion, but he was wasted for 5 years with coaches trying to make him Guardiola's replacement until Antic started using him closer to the enemy area and everyone had a first glance at what kind of player we were wasting as a holding midfielder. Then we tend to forget that he had a huge injury in 05/06 (the CL title season) and that it took him a while to get back in form. Having to deal with the whole 3 "creative" midfielders concept in his return didn't help either, as he started being wasted again playing deeper than he should, took Luis Aragones showing us again how to use Xavi properly to remember what kind of player we were holding back to fit our "star" criteria.
 

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They were both quality players before Guardiola came, but asking if they became "world class" after sort of misses the point. Guardiola changed the landscape of football, he made players like Xavi and Iniesta essential cogs of the team rather than talented luxury players. The before and after aren't really comparable, because players like Xavi and Iniesta were viewed very differently pre and post Guardiola in terms of their necessity in a team.

However, if you want to split hairs, then check out Xavi taking the piss out of England in 2004:


Pretty clear the quality was always there.
 

Raees

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They were both quality players before Guardiola came, but asking if they became "world class" after sort of misses the point. Guardiola changed the landscape of football, he made players like Xavi and Iniesta essential cogs of the team rather than talented luxury players. The before and after aren't really comparable, because players like Xavi and Iniesta were viewed very differently pre and post Guardiola in terms of their necessity in a team.

However, if you want to split hairs, then check out Xavi taking the piss out of England in 2004:


Pretty clear the quality was always there.
Pretty much agree with this.

Xavi was always being linked with moves away. His passing was always ridiculously highly rated even in video games pre Pep which is a decent indication that he already had some rep as an incredible passer but I genuinely think without Pep he'd never have got close to GOAT status .. he would still be remembered as one of the worlds best but definitely below a Pirlo and not an era defining mid.

Iniesta a more other worldly talent but again imagine if Mourinho took over or someone that just didn't get how to use him or build a formation or style which brought the best out of him. I think his sheer talent would still mean he became one of the best attacking mids in the world but the confidence Pep gave him and the positional discipline, carving out a bespoke role for him - transformed him into a supporting role to a key cog.

That video from 2004 - the skills are there but the arrogance and swagger is absent. Pep gave these guys the swagger and style to go out there and dominate. He developed the framework which turned these guys into the spine of the side and not just supporting players. You'd never lookout for these guys on team sheet - they were invisible in that sense and post Pep these guys were controlling european cup finals and euro and World Cup finals.
 

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They were always destined be top midfielders but the clockwork like system Guardiola and Barcelona employed at the time maximized all their strengths and minimized whatever shortcoming they might have had that would have been exposed in a less synchronized and structured midfield.
/thread


...in all honesty, that's 100% true about Xavi(who was already the best midfielder of the modern era next to Pirlo by the time Guardiola came around). With Iniesta, i have a nagging doubt that he could've been even more on a team that asked more of him..m
 

berbatrick

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This is one of the 1st youtube videos I ever saw, Iniesta is just magic


Edit: his 1st season with Pep
 

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I'm not sure i would say they improved all that much, rather Guardiola recognised their talent/got lucky* and set Barcelona up in a system that suited them both perfectly. Xavi needed those technical players around him who could play the same game he did, and Iniesta flourished in a team that focused on short, sharp passing in attack.

*I think in reality a bit of both.
 

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Both were secondary to deco until deco's level dropped in his last season.

Xavi's career was saved by Rijkaard. He looked like a wasted talent until Rijkaard took him out of the guardiola role and pushed him higher up the pitch.

He was a world class midfielder when guardiola took over who instead became one of the greatest midfielders of all time.

Iniesta was a slow burner who looked destined to become world class. I don't think it was in the cards that he would join the echelons of Zidane et al though.

They were both going to be top players without guardiola. I don't think anyone would have anticipated that together they would form perhaps the best midfield of all time.
 

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The Caf's view from May 2008, just before the Euros:
10 best centre midfielders in the world

Xavi was already world class and IMO the best midfielder in the world from around midway through the 2007/08 season. For him it was more about avoiding injury (which curtailed him under Rijkaard) and getting deployed in the right role. Once those two boxes were ticked he gave us 2008/09 which might just be the best season from a central midfielder ever.

Iniesta's development curve was more linear, and while he was already a burgeoning force prior to Guardiola, he continued his growth still further. His waifish build and competition for spots (who's he going to oust - Xavi, Deco or Ronaldinho?) meant it was always going to take a little time for him to fully realise his talent.

Guardiola was obviously influential in building the team around Xavi and Iniesta, recognising that their partnership was already the best thing about Barcelona in 2007/08.
 

Trizy

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They both had the ability to be world class but what made them special was Barca's tiki taka style brought out the best in both of them.
 

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They were always destined be top midfielders but the clockwork like system Guardiola and Barcelona employed at the time maximized all their strengths and minimized whatever shortcoming they might have had that would have been exposed in a less synchronized and structured midfield.
Well put.
 

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/thread


...in all honesty, that's 100% true about Xavi(who was already the best midfielder of the modern era next to Pirlo by the time Guardiola came around). With Iniesta, i have a nagging doubt that he could've been even more on a team that asked more of him..m
Funny that you say that as I felt Iniesta would be less affected in a different system. My reasoning is that he out of this world ability to dribble and beat players in small spaces would be useful in every system or setting. Xavi's game was more about short passes that control the tempo and maintain the rhythm which to me relies more on the movement of others around him and amount of support provided and no team supported their midfielders more than a Pep team. Unless of course I misunderstood your point completely and you actually mean Iniesta would have been even better?
 

Raees

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The Caf's view from May 2008, just before the Euros:
10 best centre midfielders in the world

Xavi was already world class and IMO the best midfielder in the world from around midway through the 2007/08 season. For him it was more about avoiding injury (which curtailed him under Rijkaard) and getting deployed in the right role. Once those two boxes were ticked he gave us 2008/09 which might just be the best season from a central midfielder ever.

Iniesta's development curve was more linear, and while he was already a burgeoning force prior to Guardiola, he continued his growth still further. His waifish build and competition for spots (who's he going to oust - Xavi, Deco or Ronaldinho?) meant it was always going to take a little time for him to fully realise his talent.

Guardiola was obviously influential in building the team around Xavi and Iniesta, recognising that their partnership was already the best thing about Barcelona in 2007/08.
That top ten if anything proves how important Pep was. Yes Xavi was rated highly - I mean he's a starting CM for Barca.. in of itself a great achievement but look at those names rated higher. Once Pep took over Xavi shat on those guys and then preceded to join the gods.. challenging Rijkaard Matthaus and co.

Without Pep and that tiki taka Philosophy I don't see how guys like Xavi and Iniesta become immortal. They don't really catch the eye statistically or post all time great numbers .. the emphasis on possession and the way these two were experts at destroying teams via that medium which was Peps vision, is what elevated them.

The way Pep wants football to be played has a huge impact on your central midfielders or players that play with that finesse and guile and like to keep the ball/have vision. He builds teams around these guys and makes it easier for them to operate.. because of his extreme indulgent approach to the game - it's manna to footballers like Xavi and Iniesta who would otherwise have to play in imperfect systems which doesn't quite exploit their talent to its fullest.

KDB under Pep would be a completely different animal to say if he's in our side. He would have less space to work with, less runners to find and no one really on his wavelength. You have to be a truly special player to be able to excel even if the system is against you. Some player should have that.. some don't.
 

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Fine margins at the top. Xavi for me is the best midfielder I've ever seen, without Guardiola he might just have been one of the best midfielders ever. Still great, but not that great.
 

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That top ten if anything proves how important Pep was. Yes Xavi was rated highly - I mean he's a starting CM for Barca.. in of itself a great achievement but look at those names rated higher. Once Pep took over Xavi shat on those guys and then preceded to join the gods.. challenging Rijkaard Matthaus and co.

Without Pep and that tiki taka Philosophy I don't see how guys like Xavi and Iniesta become immortal. They don't really catch the eye statistically or post all time great numbers .. the emphasis on possession and the way these two were experts at destroying teams via that medium which was Peps vision, is what elevated them.

The way Pep wants football to be played has a huge impact on your central midfielders or players that play with that finesse and guile and like to keep the ball/have vision. He builds teams around these guys and makes it easier for them to operate.. because of his extreme indulgent approach to the game - it's manna to footballers like Xavi and Iniesta who would otherwise have to play in imperfect systems which doesn't quite exploit their talent to its fullest.

KDB under Pep would be a completely different animal to say if he's in our side. He would have less space to work with, less runners to find and no one really on his wavelength. You have to be a truly special player to be able to excel even if the system is against you. Some player should have that.. some don't.
Top post. Weirdly it is happening now again when our fans criticize our players in comparison to City. It's like everybody forgets just how the likes of Walker, Delph, Fernandinho, Sterling, Otamendi, Stones were rated only few months ago. Pep does need a very specific profile of players and they usually are of very high quality but likewise, no manager supports his players in terms of providing and honing a system that makes it easier to play a fast tempo passing game for his players. Once he has or buys players who have the potential to follow his coaching, they benefit greatly from what he does. It's a bit like Mourinho with warrior type defenders. He provides them with a midfield shield and full backs that help them a lot.
 

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KDB under Pep would be a completely different animal to say if he's in our side. He would have less space to work with, less runners to find and no one really on his wavelength.
Which can be seen when playing for Belgium, imo. He's one of their best players of course, but not as impressive or productive as his City self.
 
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Xavi was good but had a lot of detractors. Many journos in the Catalan press wanted him out in 2008. Guardiola made him untouchable reputation-wise
 

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Xavi was good but had a lot of detractors. Many journos in the Catalan press wanted him out in 2008. Guardiola made him untouchable reputation-wise
Exactly! Same as a lot of that type of player actually. Pirlo and Scholes had many detractors as well because of their lack of assist and goals stats and the fact they did not have an eye catching skill like pace, power or dribbling ability.
 

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Both Xavi and Iniesta were great footballers before Guardiola took over Barca. But he made them all-time greats. The step from being in the top 20 of your time to all-time greatness is huge.
 

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Might be better to think how Pep might be remembered had Xavi not been at Barca.

I'm not saying Pep wouldn't have won stuff but never in my life have I seen a player that facilitates any philosophy than Xavi & tiki-taka. Having Messi coming through is always useful as well.
 

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Funny that you say that as I felt Iniesta would be less affected in a different system. My reasoning is that he out of this world ability to dribble and beat players in small spaces would be useful in every system or setting. Xavi's game was more about short passes that control the tempo and maintain the rhythm which to me relies more on the movement of others around him and amount of support provided and no team supported their midfielders more than a Pep team. Unless of course I misunderstood your point completely and you actually mean Iniesta would have been even better?
This. I think Iniesta could have turned into a similar player to Zidane(similar level too) on a team that asked that of him

As for Xavi, well he was like Pirlo. A game-changer. If you had him on your team, your team would be good, unless the manager is a clueless moron

But iniesta, i think he could've been even more than Xavi/Pirlo
 

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They were both quality players before Guardiola came, but asking if they became "world class" after sort of misses the point. Guardiola changed the landscape of football, he made players like Xavi and Iniesta essential cogs of the team rather than talented luxury players. The before and after aren't really comparable, because players like Xavi and Iniesta were viewed very differently pre and post Guardiola in terms of their necessity in a team.

However, if you want to split hairs, then check out Xavi taking the piss out of England in 2004:


Pretty clear the quality was always there.
Yeah this old article sums up that whole phenomenon

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04...-the-fall-and-rise-of-the-passing-midfielder/
.
That was in 2004. And now – in 2010, the current European Champions at club level are led by one Pep Guardiola, who has instilled his very playing style into Barcelona. This season he has regularly played with three Guardiola-esque players in the centre of his midfield – Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta and Sergio Busquets. Xavi and Iniesta also combined to make Spain the European Champions at international level. Just six years after Guardiola’s mentality was considered dead, it is now the way to play football.

It is remarkable that so much can change in such a short space of time. The biggest factor in the re-emergence of Guardiola-esque players was probably the shift away from 4-4-2 systems in the mid 2000s, towards 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 systems, both of which broadly feature three central midfielders. This meant that there was an extra midfield place available, and the destroyer-creator model was altered to include a ‘passer’ inbetween. Hence Liverpool’s brilliant near-title winning trio of Mascherano (destroyer) Alonso (passer) Gerrard (creator), for example.

But perhaps there has been a further shift – the mid 2000s obsession with deploying a player in the ‘Makelele role’ largely led to the decline of the creator as a traditional number 10 (as he was marked out of the game) – and that in turn caused the lessening importance of the Makelele role itself (since he then had no-one to mark). Therefore, the ‘creator’ now plays a deeper, more methodical passing game – hence Cesc Fabregas or Andres Iniesta playing as players at the head of a midfield three – whilst the ‘holding’ midfielder has also moved away from being a tackler, to becoming a passer himself – with Busquets and Michael Carrick amongst the beneficiaries. And suddenly, the midfield battle is not about being ‘physical’ or ‘ball-winning’ – it is all about passing, as epitomised by the current Barcelona sides.
 

RooneyLegend

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If you told people that Xavi was going to be player of the tournament in 08 they'd have been shocked, good player, nothing special. Iniesta was very talented but seemed to be played here, there and everywhere. After Pep though they were something else. The fact is, his system just makes players better, all their players seemed to go up a level.
 

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If you told people that Xavi was going to be player of the tournament in 08 they'd have been shocked, good player, nothing special. Iniesta was very talented but seemed to be played here, there and everywhere. After Pep though they were something else. The fact is, his system just makes players better, all their players seemed to go up a level.
Euro 2008 was before Pep managed Barca.
 

Trump

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Cant speak highly enough about Iniesta but am I the only one who thinks Xavi isnt really all that? Boring to watch and played it far too safe for my liking. Bit like Cleverley :nervous:

Maybe I have a blind spot with deep lying playmakers as I dont really rate Alonso either. Give me Carrick any day.

Can anyone help me appreciate Xavi?