I completely agreed with the motd discussion about the penalty . It's a penalty we don't want to be seen given but as per the law currently there is no way the ref can see the video and not give it . It's absolutely mad that he doesn't have to explain why he made that decision
How is that Hudson-Odoi handball not a penalty?
- Thread starter roonster09
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scandalous....as Gallagher said they’re being given every week. Suggesting it wasn’t clear and obvious ? And that a poll of ABU’s justifies anything. The 43% would be made up almost entirely of united fans as there’s no objectivity when it comes to us.
Exactly. I dont even think there are rules on this anymore. Pundits dont seem to know them, players appeal either way and refs just make it up as they go along so if there even are rules then no one cares about them anyway. Basically a penalty is whatever the ref thinks it is when he wakes up that morning.I suppose he’s just making it up on the hoof which is what the refs and VAR are doing in any case
I had high hopes for VAR and still think, used properly, it can improve the game, but as you say, using it to rule a player offside because of the position of his eyebrow after studying the video for 3, 4 or even 5 minutes, is ludicrous.
Like Gary Neville said, it would be a definite penalty if it happened at the beginning of the season. The change of rule mid-season is ridiculous and that's why I always say this is the most unfair PL in history.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/most-unfair-premier-league-in-history.459910/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/most-unfair-premier-league-in-history.459910/
Agreed. VAR should lead to a reinterpretation of the offside rule to include some kind of acceptable standard. A toe shouldn't be considered off but a leg or half a leg perhaps should.
If anything VAR has showed us how seemingly objective decisions are themselves driven by subjective individuals (i.e. VAR officials and referees).
So any such penalties given prior to the rule change should be wiped out? How can they justify changing the rules mid season? Should be reviewed out of season, so everyone is playing from an equal playing field and fully aware of what's happening.
And it would have been a free kick for them it that happened.
Ref fecked up, end of story. Mason's part in this is useless since the actual thing that happened is that it touched CHO's hand.
VAR is useless as long as refs are allowed to make up their own intepretation of the rules with no accountability.
My favourite part was when he paraphrased him "so you're saying it wasn't a clear and obvious error and shouldn't have gone to VAR" when he said absolutely nothing of the sort.
I feel for Dermot Gallagher there because as an ex-ref he has to be seen to be impartial even in the face of such utter tripe.
"Could you clearly see the ball hit Hudson Odoye's hand before Greenwood's?" should have been followed by "of course I could because I'm not blind or a biased tool" but he had to stay professional and demonstrate impartiality even in the face of such utter stupidity.
The whole "clear and obvious error" thing is a hoax.
Some argue in my thread that the change applies across all teams at the same time, so that it could be justified, but I strongly disagree with that.
Meh. I struggle to get too agitated because I don't want to see those penalties given. It's too cheap. That said, those penalties have been given all season so this obviously should have too. But I'd never really feel good winning games through such silly penalties.
“Or to put it bluntly: it’s a handball if the player touches the ball with their hand when the hand is above or beyond their shoulder level. Period.
So looking at the picture accompanying Vida reds posting its not as clear cut as suggested.
Handballs are subjective ( save when a goal has been scored ) this is the one law that mentions the word deliberate.
Look let’s be clear I would have been screaming for a penalty had the roles been reversed but on this one we got lucky just like you got lucky in the reverse fixture
So looking at the picture accompanying Vida reds posting its not as clear cut as suggested.
Handballs are subjective ( save when a goal has been scored ) this is the one law that mentions the word deliberate.
Look let’s be clear I would have been screaming for a penalty had the roles been reversed but on this one we got lucky just like you got lucky in the reverse fixture
And earlier in the season this was given as a penalty. https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12076660/evra-they-are-killing-the-game
Can’t understand why not given after ref reviews it. The only thing I can think is when watched at full speed it appears that Greenwoods arm movement suggests he is trying to nudge the ball away and perhaps ref interprets this as a reason why Odoi lifts his arm to block Greenwoods. Kind of instinctive move. However, for me, no matter how “soft” it was wrong decision.
I think its more a case of refs being totally confused by the changes to the laws; the governing body, FIFA, must review the laws and VAR before the game sinks in an abyss of bewilderment.
I’m not discussing the balance of all decisions made, I’m discussing this one. I suggest you see the footage again in slow motion (like the referee did) if you think that the fotos in Sky’s Gallagher-interview shows where the hand was when he first touched the ball. Or just look at one of the numerous freeze frames of it in this thread. It’s above and beyond the shoulder, so the current (stupid) laws are adamantly clear about it. It’s not really worth discussing it a lot in a forum if you haven’t seen it properly.
The confusion is actually caused by the change of (interpretation of) laws mid-season. At the beginning of the season, many complained the game sank in an abyss of bewilderment because of the ridiculous handballs. Now, they somehow twist the laws mid-season to avoid criticism, but create more unfairness and debate.
Confusion is saying is “caused by change of laws mid season”. Can you be specific?
I’m not defending VAR. It is a complete shambles and, feel free to shoot me down, this is a frenzy created by media to sell papers.
BBC are also complicit. Match of the Day... Shearer “ By the letter of the law its a penalty but I dont like to see those given”
Showing mm offside decisions then Lineker saying” Is his big toe offside”.
Fans , from my view, hate it. Force a referendem on how it is used and what is reviewed.
Footy is now one big bitch about VAR. Very sad
Stonewall penalty and ref bottled it. But to be fair, we had ample time to win that game. If Bruno or McT provide a good pass in those counterattacks, we should have scored. So I just don’t agree that we lost 2 points due to the ref. We have to make the best of the chances we get. And I would think our players and Ole would agree with that, but they still needed to make a ruckus about the non-penalty because other teams are speaking out and trying to influence refs.
I say no penalty and a three match ban for Greenwood for breathing.
Well since you said that I think it’s only fair that since you got away with this one the FA should set a new rule that Chelsea shall never get another penalty again this season for an opposition handball. I mean we are all for what goes around comes around?
At the beginning of the season there were plenty of ridiculous handballs being penalized and they caused a lot of criticisms from the press and the fans. Hence, as the season progresses, refs start to become more and more reluctant to blow the whistle when they see a handball. We are not the only victim and we now see many handballs, which would've definitely been given at the start of the season, are neglected.
As long as we get just 50% of the others decisions that have gone against us and we don’t get the handball ones I suspect we would be quids in
I don’t really understand the talk of rule changes in this particular instance. That’s a handball in any era, under any of the handball rule changes. His hand is so high and he’s knocked the ball away from Greenwood’s path. It’s a stonewall pen.
Exactly this. I’ve found the whole narrative around this bizarre. He’s looking straight at a slow moving ball and punches it. It’s a stonewall penalty in 1990, let alone in 2021.
As I’ve said elsewhere, it’s not really any different to Pogba’s one versus Liverpool a few years ago - if anything Pogba’s is more questionable as he was clearly trying to head it and got himself in a complete mess - but no one was saying the Pogba one was anything but a clear penalty.
I genuinely think the ref misses CHO's hand hitting the ball and think it's Greenwoods arm knocking it on. He can't possibly see the hand hitting the ball and think that's OK.
Same with Tuchel, he took 1 quick look and saw it was Greenwood, completely ignoring the touch from CHO first.
This is why we need clarity from the referees though, we are all watching the same pictures and somehow they come up with different answers - at least let us hear their reasonings behind a decision.
I doubt the ref purposely didn't award it, he just probably made a mistake in the heat of the moment.
Same with Tuchel, he took 1 quick look and saw it was Greenwood, completely ignoring the touch from CHO first.
This is why we need clarity from the referees though, we are all watching the same pictures and somehow they come up with different answers - at least let us hear their reasonings behind a decision.
I doubt the ref purposely didn't award it, he just probably made a mistake in the heat of the moment.
he just erred on the side of caution, knowing the whole population of the uk would be led by the nose of Keys, Klopp, Sky coverage etc etc and be outraged had he given it.
simple as.
The laws haven't changed. The interpretation of the laws changed after a lot of pressure following the Lindelof v Palace incident, I think an Everton incident (v liverpool?) and another one. After 3 of those they decided to be more pragmatic in their interpretation. Which to be fair, is better than having more stupid arse hand ball decisions throughout the year for the same of it.
That's not to say CHO incident isn't hand ball though, I'm just clarifying how the outlook to handball changed.
Well I agree that there seems to be an “en vogue” thing with VAR. For example keepers moving off the line before penalty taken or players encroaching in box.
In WC Russia it was holding on corners which led to loads of penalties. Handball decisions with VAR can never be binary and I agree that some weeks the same scenario results in Penalty and some not.
But to say the Law has not changed.
I have been a proponent of a fans referendum to define / decide where VAR improves the game and then accept that as is.
Before we all moaned about refs decisions or false offside flags. Fans have to be honest and open about what VAR can bring against how it kills the excitement etc..
I think its used for how clear it is why the decision had been made. Regardless of the offense, we can hear the conversation and know why they arrived at that punishment. With regards to the Chelsea game the ref could easily ask if the offense breaks the current rule of handball, we could hear that conversation and the conversation with the players after he'd made his decision. No confusion or feelings of inadequacy or corruption.
Said for a while there should be a minimum measurement for offside. People have been offside by 1mm. Thats pathetic. If it was 20mm or 50mm it would be a bit more decisive.
It’s not. It’s worse. Whether the rules are perfect or not, the worst possible scenario is to have them implemented differently in some games than other games from the same season. You say “to be fair” but what happened is literally unfair.
I get what you mean, but every game up until the revision was interpreted in a more harsh view of the hand-ball view before they corrected it.
The strategy is to have it corrected across the board consistently, but in subjective decisions its never going to be 100% consistent.
The CHO is a penalty, but I think changing the interpretation early in the season across the board is not unfair if it's a change that is meant to be consistent for all teams. All teams faced harsher interpretations for the opening 10 games or so, then all teams got refereeing where it was briefed to be more pragmatic on handballs.
Please, this makes absolutely no sense. If offside by 1 mm then its offside. For a start , imagine the uproar and maybe even legal action if the video shows 1mm offside and it is deemed onside.
Also 1mm becomes 2 mm then 3mm. Accept that the video has a tolerance and that it is far better than shocking Lino’s decisions that happened all too often.
It's not really something I'm bothered about and I can't understand the fuss. Should we have had a pen? By the really stupid laws of the game now, yes we should. But it wasn't given and there were 75 minutes left to turn a decent draw into a really good win.
This victim narrative we're adopting could come back to bite us if a few results go against us.
This victim narrative we're adopting could come back to bite us if a few results go against us.
Would SAF "make a fuss" about it? IMO he would. While "victim narrative" is indeed not great, "siege mentality" has proved to work numerous times over the history of PL.
1mm is far too small to be classed as an advantage. So if they're gonna use those daft lines, they need to figure out how much actually classes as "gaining an advantage".