They obviously won't be collapsing any time soon, but it doesn't feel like an era of dominance might be starting in the way it did when Pep started winning with City. When you watch Liverpool its hard to believe they've won as many as they have this season. Yes they're a well balanced team with no major weaknesses in the first team, but they give up chances and have poor spells in games same as everyone else. Its a real surprise they haven't been caught out a few times with late equalisers or got the odd narrow defeat. Combined with the fact that City typically buy well and will no doubt address their flaws in defence, Id still fancy City next season over Liverpool.
How long will Liverpool's dominance last?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
Let it start before asking when it will end.
I think people are making the same mistake as this season, assuming that City will be dominant next year and Liverpool will run away with it. The one thing I hope comes to an end is their vast amount of good fortune.
They are in that cushy period we were in around 2000 where they have quality throughout the team and only need to keep the squad fresh by adding one major signing each summer and then a couple of squad players or youth prospects (provided they hang on to their key players).
A huge part of it depends on what motivates the likes of VVD, Salah, Mane, Firmino. Will they be tempted with Madrid or Barcelona (both in need of major superstars)? Ronaldo showed that even winning Leagues and Champions Leagues wont satisfy every players needs and as they're all hitting their late 20s there wont be a better time for them to move.
Klopp is obviously a major aspect too. I get the feeling he is more than happy to remain at Liverpool and build a dynasty but if his head was ever turned then you'd expect a big change in the team.
I think the money in the game (specifically city) means that they wont dominate as long as United under SAF. Some club will throw enough money at a team to put together a team capable of beating them over the course of the season.
A huge part of it depends on what motivates the likes of VVD, Salah, Mane, Firmino. Will they be tempted with Madrid or Barcelona (both in need of major superstars)? Ronaldo showed that even winning Leagues and Champions Leagues wont satisfy every players needs and as they're all hitting their late 20s there wont be a better time for them to move.
Klopp is obviously a major aspect too. I get the feeling he is more than happy to remain at Liverpool and build a dynasty but if his head was ever turned then you'd expect a big change in the team.
I think the money in the game (specifically city) means that they wont dominate as long as United under SAF. Some club will throw enough money at a team to put together a team capable of beating them over the course of the season.
I think the points that others make about Klopp pushing players very hard is the crucial clue. There is no way this is sustainable for a long period of dominance. They will decline as quickly as they have ascended for a brief flirtation at the top.
I don't see the current crop of Liverpool players maintaining their form next year unless they sign at least a 2, 3 players. For eg I see them adding a striker like Werner, a midfielder, and may be a defender too.
More money/warmer climate/new challenge
Cool, my mistake. But this means that "how long will City remain dominant for?" is still a much more relevant question, and also means that "how long will Chelsea remain dominant for?" is a more relevant question.
You kind of have to wait for a team to actually be dominant, or you know, at least win the league and then not immediately fall off again, before you can call them dominant.
I wouldn't put money on City not being top this time next year if Pep is still there.
I think City will be back with a vengeance next season so expect them to win probably 2 of the next 3 leagues with Liverpool equaling us on 20 during that period. By the end of that it will be 2023 and chances are this period has already passed and there will be another team (hopefully us, somehow) that has taken them over. Klopp's style and hunger is hard to keep up for what would be 7-8 years by that point and I don't think they will continue to nail every transfer. Eventually you get a dud, an elite player or two has a drop in level or leaves and can't be replaced.
~3-4 years seems the typical lifetime of a squad, so I'd guess that'd be it for this one as well. Depends if they can keep Klopp and continue with their (frankly) unbelievable recruitment after that. I think other clubs are building out data departments and whatever competitive advantage they may have had in terms of recruitment will even out pretty quickly.
If Salah / Mane / Van Dijk leave, it might end even sooner than that.
If Salah / Mane / Van Dijk leave, it might end even sooner than that.
They've hit peak imo, the only way is down now. I remember Fergie saying teams usually last in 3 year cycles, so hopefully the decline will start as soon as next season.
There's still hope they won't win - don't give up yet
Yeah, I agree - in fact, I think it actually strengthens your point, as even City, with their nearly unlimited resources, haven't really managed to dominate the Premier League so it's very premature to hand the future crowns to Liverpool.
Fair enough, Madrid won three European titles in a row, for which they have been proclaimed an all conquering dominant footballing force of our times. It was achieved by grinding out knockout ties, while being distinctly second best in the domestic competition, but who cares.
If anything, Liverpool are grinding out wins and riding the momentum on a more consistent basis. Is that run sustainable and does it signify a beginning of dominance? Well, there's a team in the same league that have won it twice in a row and swept the most cup trophies, and are still doing better in created/conceded chances in this very season. Yet they apparently don't stand much chance against the real footballing dominance shown by Liverpool. All right.
This Liverpool side is obviously great and as good as any of the best Chelsea or United sides of the last few decades. Their points record may be a bit inflated, but it still speaks for itself. And no, the league was not stronger back then. But maybe this record chasing could be their downfall. It's like they can't allow themselves to lose a single point, and have somehow been managing it for two seasons. That's a consequence of competing with a team like City. Eventually, the intensity should drop off at one point. Anyway, so far they've managed an impressive feat of consistency and confidence, although I don't really like the industrial brand of football.
If anything, Liverpool are grinding out wins and riding the momentum on a more consistent basis. Is that run sustainable and does it signify a beginning of dominance? Well, there's a team in the same league that have won it twice in a row and swept the most cup trophies, and are still doing better in created/conceded chances in this very season. Yet they apparently don't stand much chance against the real footballing dominance shown by Liverpool. All right.
This Liverpool side is obviously great and as good as any of the best Chelsea or United sides of the last few decades. Their points record may be a bit inflated, but it still speaks for itself. And no, the league was not stronger back then. But maybe this record chasing could be their downfall. It's like they can't allow themselves to lose a single point, and have somehow been managing it for two seasons. That's a consequence of competing with a team like City. Eventually, the intensity should drop off at one point. Anyway, so far they've managed an impressive feat of consistency and confidence, although I don't really like the industrial brand of football.
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This is (partly) a post I made on the Klopp-watch thread. I think it's pretty relevant here too...
---8<-------8<-------8<---- C u t H e r e ---8<-------8<-------8<----
There's a lot of worry on here about Liverpool's rebuilding "problem", which smacks of trying to divert attention from the current (real) problem of having a Liverpool side that are easing themselves into their first PL trophy for 30 years...
The news doesn't get better for those who don't like 'pool. When they played their kids (who were well and truly beaten against Villa, and who did surprisingly well against Everton), we finally got some public insight about how the internals are all set up. The kids regularly play the first team in training, and they're apparently ahead this year. Each "kid" is groomed to slot into a specific place in the first team, semi-regularly trains with the guy who holds that place (and those that normally sit on the bench) and gets familiar with the style of play and requirements he'd need to step up and claim it for himself. Playing against the guy who's holding that place down gives a clear idea of where the kid is, relatively speaking. Klopp knows where he needs reinforcements and where he can develop internally.
It's not radical stuff, I'm sure loads of clubs do it, but it's apparently new for Liverpool - before Klopp the kids (generally) trained separately, and only the coaches regularly met. This whole philosophy of progressively stepping up from young age to old, with *specific* goals and targets is new, at least to Liverpool.
And here, I can offer some insight that isn't often made publicly available. My kid (10 going on 11) is in one of the Liverpool academy over here in the US in the Bay Area, CA. In 2016 when Liverpool came over to play their Summer tour, they beat AC Milan in the Levi's stadium here in Santa Clara. The day after the match, Klopp and co were at the Sunday training for the kids (yes the *real* kids, including the 7-year olds). He was crouching down, giving advice to these little kids about how to improve their play as a team rather than individually, was talking to the trainers (most of whom are ex-pros) about the kids, and taking a genuine interest in how things were going. The Liverpool academy here was pretty skills-focussed before this (you needed to master a given technique before you'd go on to do something else). There's still an element of that now, but the focus changed after Klopp's visit to make it more focussed on how the team as a whole performs.
Now the chances of my kid ever playing for, well, anyone is vanishingly remote. He plays with his team because he loves the sport, but realistically he's got a better chance in life by doing well at school. Still, he got advice from Klopp about how and when to run, and how that would help his team, (in conjunction with a couple of his team-mates; they were all told that *if* this happens, *and* they can do *this*, then... etc.) and the same advice was clearly given to the trainers, because it became a staple of how the team now trains (we train 3 times per week and have a game every weekend, so I get to watch a lot
). There was and is a marked difference in how they play their game - I mean it's constantly evolving, but the running approach, the support offered to team-mates, and the ethos of "us" rather than "me" definitely changed from the training perspective.
So if he's willing to take the time to help out a bunch of kids on the opposite side of the planet, only loosely associated with LFC, I can only imagine the effect he has on the *actual* academy day-in, day-out. It's a truism that you can't focus on everything in this life, but somehow he does seem to be able to focus on everything he's doing at the time he's doing it. He also seems to have a plan for how everything should fit together - maybe not in detail, but at a level that lets things just gel together without too much friction.
And then of course, he's also got all the options in the transfer market, where he's had pretty good results too.
I honestly don't think that Liverpool have been in a better situation with regard to long-term progress ever - and I've been watching them now for 45 years. Even if (when) he goes, if the same team ethos can be carried over (it's been 4 years now since he was last this far west in the US and the impact is still obvious from that one visit), the future will be bright indeed. He certainly seems to be putting effort into the areas even at the extremes of the bell-curve, and the effects of that effort can be seen, at least here, for us midgets, who are looking at the grass-roots.
Having said all of that, it's still way too early to think of "dominance", at least in terms of silverware. The team is currently dominant in this season, without a doubt, but we've yet to win a single PL trophy, so it's not so much premature as laughable to talk about dominance in terms of serial winners of trophys...
Well, this turned out to be far longer than I'd expected when I started, sorry for that I'll finish with one more observation - in person, he's a lot fecking taller than he appears on telly!
---8<-------8<-------8<---- C u t H e r e ---8<-------8<-------8<----
There's a lot of worry on here about Liverpool's rebuilding "problem", which smacks of trying to divert attention from the current (real) problem of having a Liverpool side that are easing themselves into their first PL trophy for 30 years...
The news doesn't get better for those who don't like 'pool. When they played their kids (who were well and truly beaten against Villa, and who did surprisingly well against Everton), we finally got some public insight about how the internals are all set up. The kids regularly play the first team in training, and they're apparently ahead this year. Each "kid" is groomed to slot into a specific place in the first team, semi-regularly trains with the guy who holds that place (and those that normally sit on the bench) and gets familiar with the style of play and requirements he'd need to step up and claim it for himself. Playing against the guy who's holding that place down gives a clear idea of where the kid is, relatively speaking. Klopp knows where he needs reinforcements and where he can develop internally.
It's not radical stuff, I'm sure loads of clubs do it, but it's apparently new for Liverpool - before Klopp the kids (generally) trained separately, and only the coaches regularly met. This whole philosophy of progressively stepping up from young age to old, with *specific* goals and targets is new, at least to Liverpool.
And here, I can offer some insight that isn't often made publicly available. My kid (10 going on 11) is in one of the Liverpool academy over here in the US in the Bay Area, CA. In 2016 when Liverpool came over to play their Summer tour, they beat AC Milan in the Levi's stadium here in Santa Clara. The day after the match, Klopp and co were at the Sunday training for the kids (yes the *real* kids, including the 7-year olds). He was crouching down, giving advice to these little kids about how to improve their play as a team rather than individually, was talking to the trainers (most of whom are ex-pros) about the kids, and taking a genuine interest in how things were going. The Liverpool academy here was pretty skills-focussed before this (you needed to master a given technique before you'd go on to do something else). There's still an element of that now, but the focus changed after Klopp's visit to make it more focussed on how the team as a whole performs.
Now the chances of my kid ever playing for, well, anyone is vanishingly remote. He plays with his team because he loves the sport, but realistically he's got a better chance in life by doing well at school. Still, he got advice from Klopp about how and when to run, and how that would help his team, (in conjunction with a couple of his team-mates; they were all told that *if* this happens, *and* they can do *this*, then... etc.) and the same advice was clearly given to the trainers, because it became a staple of how the team now trains (we train 3 times per week and have a game every weekend, so I get to watch a lot
). There was and is a marked difference in how they play their game - I mean it's constantly evolving, but the running approach, the support offered to team-mates, and the ethos of "us" rather than "me" definitely changed from the training perspective.So if he's willing to take the time to help out a bunch of kids on the opposite side of the planet, only loosely associated with LFC, I can only imagine the effect he has on the *actual* academy day-in, day-out. It's a truism that you can't focus on everything in this life, but somehow he does seem to be able to focus on everything he's doing at the time he's doing it. He also seems to have a plan for how everything should fit together - maybe not in detail, but at a level that lets things just gel together without too much friction.
And then of course, he's also got all the options in the transfer market, where he's had pretty good results too.
I honestly don't think that Liverpool have been in a better situation with regard to long-term progress ever - and I've been watching them now for 45 years. Even if (when) he goes, if the same team ethos can be carried over (it's been 4 years now since he was last this far west in the US and the impact is still obvious from that one visit), the future will be bright indeed. He certainly seems to be putting effort into the areas even at the extremes of the bell-curve, and the effects of that effort can be seen, at least here, for us midgets, who are looking at the grass-roots.
Having said all of that, it's still way too early to think of "dominance", at least in terms of silverware. The team is currently dominant in this season, without a doubt, but we've yet to win a single PL trophy, so it's not so much premature as laughable to talk about dominance in terms of serial winners of trophys...
Well, this turned out to be far longer than I'd expected when I started, sorry for that
I'll finish with one more observation - in person, he's a lot fecking taller than he appears on telly!
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We’re on track to win our first league title in 30 years. Any talk of dominance is silly. City, with Pep and their unlimited bank account, were incredible the past two seasons and many, myself included, thought that they were going to run away with it for years to come. Look what happened.
The only team that could potentially dominate the PL, as in win multiple leagues in a row, are City, though, as they have fantastic manager, team around him and more money than the rest of us.
But I don’t see that happening as Pep will leave eventually and they’ll find it difficult to find anyone who isn’t a downgrade.
The only team that could potentially dominate the PL, as in win multiple leagues in a row, are City, though, as they have fantastic manager, team around him and more money than the rest of us.
But I don’t see that happening as Pep will leave eventually and they’ll find it difficult to find anyone who isn’t a downgrade.
I don't think we'll dominate over any time really. We're a great side at the moment but City are only a couple of signings from having another 100point season again. We've had a great season so far and are dominating this league right now but let's wait and see over the next couple of seasons before anyone starts saying that we're going to dominate long term
While dominance is far from given, safe to say that this young core will at the very least challenge for major trophies at least 3 seasons following this one.
Plus what players of theirs would desire a move to Madrid? Not the British group I think. Firmino isn't sexy enough for Madrid. Mane doesn't seem like the type who's interested. Maybe Salah... but they'll receive a shit-ton of money for him and get Sancho or another exciting winger.
Ultimately they'll age/grow tired of Klopp and need a refresh, but that's some years out. And they have an excellent setup placed to manage transitions well (in theory at least)
Plus what players of theirs would desire a move to Madrid? Not the British group I think. Firmino isn't sexy enough for Madrid. Mane doesn't seem like the type who's interested. Maybe Salah... but they'll receive a shit-ton of money for him and get Sancho or another exciting winger.
Ultimately they'll age/grow tired of Klopp and need a refresh, but that's some years out. And they have an excellent setup placed to manage transitions well (in theory at least)
They do not look a dominant team, like Barca and Real were in the last 15 years. Liverpool need to fight for every victory. Confidence really play a big role in football.
Soon, we'll be making this exact thread about Ole
A couple of seasons. It’s exhausting to keep up that tempo and teams will manage to work out how best to play against the Liverpool system.
I genuinely believe we are 6,7 signings away from challenging both Liverpool and City for the title next year. It just is a matter of board and Ed showing some spine, and making the funds available.
For eg if we address the immediate need and sign Moussa Dembele and Fernandes in January along with a loan deal for lets say Lorente, these signings will ensure that United will finish top 4.
Now if we back the squad with signing a right winger, another play-maker, and defender in summer, while sending the deadwood packing along with Pogba, we will have genuinely strong squad to compete in the league next year.
A front six of Rashford, Martial and Dembele along with James, Greenwood and lets say Calvin Stengs will be an amazing front 6 to have. (ideally it should be Sancho)
For eg if we address the immediate need and sign Moussa Dembele and Fernandes in January along with a loan deal for lets say Lorente, these signings will ensure that United will finish top 4.
Now if we back the squad with signing a right winger, another play-maker, and defender in summer, while sending the deadwood packing along with Pogba, we will have genuinely strong squad to compete in the league next year.
A front six of Rashford, Martial and Dembele along with James, Greenwood and lets say Calvin Stengs will be an amazing front 6 to have. (ideally it should be Sancho)
Two seasons max. Then battle for top six about 5-6 years until back to usual place.
Soon, we'll be making this exact thread about Ole
hopefullyI agree.
But if we sign 7 players before the end of next season, i'd be truly shocked
Don't think they're dominating as such, but..
I think Klopp will leave in a few years. At the same time a good chunk of their best/most important players will be 30 or thereabouts (Salah, Mane, Firmino, VVD, Henderson) and they'll have to start looking at others soon enough, which hopefully won't go quite as smoothly.
I think Klopp will leave in a few years. At the same time a good chunk of their best/most important players will be 30 or thereabouts (Salah, Mane, Firmino, VVD, Henderson) and they'll have to start looking at others soon enough, which hopefully won't go quite as smoothly.
What tempo ? We only play the high intensity stuff in short bursts now. Such as the first 10 - 15 minutes of the 2nd half on Sunday. It's mostly the opposition teams that come off the pitch knackered as we generally have more of the possession throughout the 90 minutes. There also seems to be a general consensus that this season is something of a fluke as far as we're concerned & that City will come firing back at us next year. But when you consider that they've lost 5 games already this season in the league after just 23 matches played, whereas we've only lost 4 times (all away from home to United, City, Swansea, & Chelsea) in our previous 89 league matches, then it's obviously not a fluke, luck, whatever. So not only do City have to turn things around substantially to make up a massive points difference (currently), but we would have to fall some way from the consistency & form we've produced for over 2 years now.
After everything not many people understand the Monster Klopp truly is as a Manager.
It's insane, it's truly is. He was making world-class players at Dortmund while having to look for talent at
players with little to no prospect in the hope he eventually unearths a gem. Then when he finally did
Bayern was able to pick them because of the enormous gap in salary that now does not exist with his current rivals.
Basically, when it came to talent he was not even shopping in Tesco it was more like bin dipping (oh the irony).
He's now in a position to spend money (with ease) on the absolute top talent. Talent that is basically begging to play for him.
There is a reason why the squad he inherited cost around 360m and is now worth more than 1.8 billion according to Forbes.
That should tell you everything.
p.s. As long as Klopp is Liverpool manager the Dynasty talk will be active. He's already a GOD for us.
It's insane, it's truly is. He was making world-class players at Dortmund while having to look for talent at
players with little to no prospect in the hope he eventually unearths a gem. Then when he finally did
Bayern was able to pick them because of the enormous gap in salary that now does not exist with his current rivals.
Basically, when it came to talent he was not even shopping in Tesco it was more like bin dipping (oh the irony).
He's now in a position to spend money (with ease) on the absolute top talent. Talent that is basically begging to play for him.
There is a reason why the squad he inherited cost around 360m and is now worth more than 1.8 billion according to Forbes.
That should tell you everything.
p.s. As long as Klopp is Liverpool manager the Dynasty talk will be active. He's already a GOD for us.
Do you think you'll break the 100 point barrier next season?
I'm not even sure if we'll break the 100 point barrier this season... Next year we all reset, and we all go again, and que sera sera...
I doubt it but I do think we'll be able to get enough points to be ahead of 2nd place again. Clearly, City will think the same and I think next years title race will be more akin to last seasons
I think they will get to 20 titles then we will be jolted into some kind of meaningful action
Meaningful action for United would mean a change of ownership/the people above the manager imo. Until that happens I think United will be held back by people like Ed Woodward doing a job he isn't cut out for.
Liverpool's biggest and probably toughest challenge over the coming 2-3 years will be adjusting itself to the change on when the ACON is played as it will now be played mid-season and will impact on quite a few of their players. After that, there will be other teams that will challenge beyond Man City(who will recruit heavily), however, taking ages of squads recent past player recruitment and success of those players - I can see it being a 6-8 year snake dance between Liverpool and Man City, for who is classed as the number 1 in England. More ominously for most on here - i see no shake up coming from Manchester united and then that puts them at year 13+ years, without the all judging plimsoll line of a league title.
With all things taken into consideration - I believe the big question is - is who will brake into the Liverpool and Man city dominance over the coming years, as both will dominate for some time?
With all things taken into consideration - I believe the big question is - is who will brake into the Liverpool and Man city dominance over the coming years, as both will dominate for some time?
I agree, I wouldn't be surprised if Liverpool win 10 in a row at some point
It’d be extremely rare for a team to dominate this league, we’re placed to do well though. I expect us to keep the front three and add another attacker.
i posted that more in hope than expectation on United's part - agreed
2 years ago we were reading headlines about will City's near perfect season be a start of a dynasty, 10 year domination. Look and behold this they're stumbling around and have defended their title poorly.
Things in football change quickly. Maybe they'll win a league or 2 more (which is horrible of course if they come to number 20) but I dont think it will be any kind of prolonged world domination.
English clubs wont just sit around and watch them lift every trophy possible nor will European ones.
Things in football change quickly. Maybe they'll win a league or 2 more (which is horrible of course if they come to number 20) but I dont think it will be any kind of prolonged world domination.
English clubs wont just sit around and watch them lift every trophy possible nor will European ones.
Last year they were better than you even though you had a brilliant season. They can turn things around again next season especially if Pep will spend like a mad man again. I dont think it will be that hard to make up a points difference. Also Liverpool might be great next season too but might as well fall a bit. Of course this season isnt a fluke but it doesnt guarantee you'll be that great next season either.
Seriously?
The beauty of the league is domination on the 80s Liverpool/90s United scale is neigh impossible.