How much longer for the next “R9”?

Kwabs said:
The facts are that he played 5 or 6 finals before 2021 (I forget the exact number) and didn't register a single goal or assist in any of those matches. And had the 2010 World Cup, during a period of superhuman form for Barca, and didn't score a single goal. Didn't have a goal in the WC knockouts until 2022, at age 35. The factors that you mentioned (teammates, chemistry etc.) do not explain these failures.

This is the closest thing to a weakness in Messi's resume, if there is one, the fact that it took him so long to get going at international level (in the biggest matches). It's OK to point this out when people are claiming that there is some vast talent gulf between him and R9. It doesn't take anything away from Messi, and there's no need for you to desperately scramble to try and defend him. No one's career is perfect and no player is perfect.

I maintain that as far as pure talent goes, it is very close between the two. As far as overall careers go, Messi's was obviously much greater.
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2006 wc: Messi goes into it having missed last 3 months of the season and is used sparingly by Argentina.

2010 wc: Maradona as head coach ruins it for Messi and Argentina. Messi was by far the bpitw at the time. He did hit the post 5 times though.

2014 wc: Messi went into that wc in his worst form since his first team debut for Barcelona partly due to injuries. Scored goals in the groups but was below par through out

2018 wc: Again, Argentina had a clueless manager. The play was shambolic in offense and defense.

2022 wc: Finally, it comes together with a very good manager and team chemistry.

Given that the wc comes around every 4 years and it is a knock out, the stars do need to align for success. Brazil of 1998 had a very strong team and incredible chemistry.
 
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There won’t be. He had Mbappe’s 0-60, Kane’s finishing prowess and while he’s not as good a dribbler as Messi he wasn’t far off. What he also doesn’t get enough credit for is his passing ability which if you didn’t watch him play any matches you won’t see on his highlight reels. Without the injury, it’s not even debatable that he’s talked about in the same breath as Messi and CR7. Had the weirdness before the 98 World Cup final not happened, we’d be talking about a back to back World Cup winner as well.
 
Wand of a right foot said:
2006 wc: Messi goes into it having missed last 3 months of the season and is used sparingly by Argentina.

2010 wc: Maradona as head coach ruins it for Messi and Argentina. Messi was by far the bpitw at the time. He did hit the post 5 times though.

2014 wc: Messi went into that wc in his worst form since his first team debut for Barcelona partly due to injuries. Scored goals in the groups but was below par through out

2018 wc: Again, Argentina had a clueless manager. The play was shambolic in offensive and defense.

2022 wc: Finally, it comes together with a very good manager and team chemistry.
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Just a bunch of excuses. He wasn't good enough in the big spots and he'd probably tell you that himself. Saying stuff like 'managers messed it up for him' is just weak. The manager in 2018, for example, won the Copa America with Chile in 2015, beating Messi's Argentina in the final.

I don't know why you can't admit that he's not perfect. He's a human being. It's very strange. Every great player has parts of their career that you can point to and criticise. Messi is no different. And I've probably watched him play way more than you have, TBH.
 
Dont think they'll ever be a R9. He was that special.

Mbappe gave me slight R9 vibes when he came through but since then, no one has come close, in my opinion.
 
Kwabs said:
The facts are that he played 5 or 6 finals before 2021 (I forget the exact number) and didn't register a single goal or assist in any of those matches
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I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but it isn't true whichever interpretation.

Edit: Oh, you mean World Cup and Copa America finals combined. As you were.
 
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Trequarista10 said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but it isn't true whichever interpretation.

Edit: Oh, you mean World Cup and Copa America finals combined. As you were.
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Yes, that's what I meant. I think the reason is that Messi had a bit of a mental block with Argentina for a while there.

It probably stems from the fact that he never played professionally there and instead came to Barca as a kid. So when he was criticised and called 'the Catalan', etc., it would have hurt him, because he is clearly a proud of being from Argentina.

This likely led to him trying a bit too hard in those big spots for Argentina, because he was so desperate to do well for his country.

Also, the shadow of Maradona was an issue, as it was for all up and coming Argentina stars. It's funny to consider that Messi has now surpassed him in the eyes of many, a feat which seemed impossible 20 years ago with the size of Diego's legend.
 
Wand of a right foot said:
Clearly you did not watch Messi at age 18 or 19. At 17, he barely played.

At 18, season 05-06, Messi started playing fairly regularly for Barcelona. His performances that season were amazing and often he outshone Ronaldinho (the then bpitw) most notably at Stamford bridge vs Mourinho's Chelsea but also in other league matches whose compilations are available on youtube. He was also brilliant vs real madrid at the Barnebau( only Ronaldinho was better) as well as in the groups stages of the ucl. Unfortunately, Messi got injured during the match vs Chelsea in March and missed the rest of the season going into Germany 2006; total 3 months.

At 19, season 06-07, Messi was pretty much the bpitw paying at an extraterrestrial level week in week out. Highlights included a hattrick vs Real Madrid at the Bernebau and a goal of the century contender vs Getafe. But, once again he got injured at a crucial point and missing 3 months with a broken metatarsal. His absence derailed Barcelona's season especially with Ronaldinho misfiring. The individual compilations are available on youtube.

Such was Messi's talent that even Ronaldinho claimed after winning the ballond'or that he wasn't even the best player at Barcelona.

On the surface of it R9 had extraordinary stats and was better at 19 BUT there are caveats mainly Messi’s injuries, Messi being played much less due to registration issues and protection by Rijkaard, and Messi’s position as an inverted winger during his early years. As opposed to R9 having played many many more matches by age 19 and being a striker.

Interms of pure talent, if watched him, Messi was atleast as talented just never got the recognition due to these factors.

Now for teenage Cristiano, the guy got so much stick during those years that your claim of him being comparable to Messi cannot be taken seriously. Not sure if you actually watched football back then. I see these claims on X and it really baffles me.
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Again, you're exaggerated how good young Messi was and how much worse CR7 was. Both of them were pretty good but none of them were close to R9's level. Young Messi and young Ronaldo were pretty similar in terms of their playing levels and the quality that they had.

You mentioned that young Messi scored a hattrick against Madrid and that's true, but Ronaldo also scored 2 goals against Arsenal invincibles at Highbury and they were definitely a better team than the failed Galacticos side.

Young Ronaldo was much more impactful in the bigger games than Messi (both FA Cup finals and the League Cup final) and he was a better player at international level than Messi. R9 scored over 200 goals by the time he was 20 and was sensational at PSV and Brazil. Neither young CR7 or Messi are comparable to the pre injury R9.

It's fine to believe that young Messi was better than young CR7, but it's weird how you framed the whole conversation that he was somehow light years ahead of young CR7 when that's simply not true. Furthermore, as I mentioned before there were a lot better teenage players than those two. Michael Owen, Mbappe, Rooney and even Yamal now.
 
KingEric04 said:
Again, you're exaggerated how good young Messi was and how much worse CR7 was. Both of them were pretty good but none of them were close to R9's level. Young Messi and young Ronaldo were pretty similar in terms of their playing levels and the quality that they had.

You mentioned that young Messi scored a hattrick against Madrid and that's true, but Ronaldo also scored 2 goals against Arsenal invincibles at Highbury and they were definitely a better team than the failed Galacticos side.

Young Ronaldo was much more impactful in the bigger games than Messi (both FA Cup finals and the League Cup final) and he was a better player at international level than Messi. R9 scored over 200 goals by the time he was 20 and was sensational at PSV and Brazil. Neither young CR7 or Messi are comparable to the pre injury R9.

It's fine to believe that young Messi was better than young CR7, but it's weird how you framed the whole conversation that he was somehow light years ahead of young CR7 when that's simply not true. Furthermore, as I mentioned before there were a lot better teenage players than those two. Michael Owen, Mbappe, Rooney and even Yamal now.
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You are completely underrating young Messi. From your comments, you obviously did not watch him play at that age. I watched both Messi and Cristiano and they were miles apart. Cristiano recieved ALOT of stick for brainless football, Messi was already being considered the heir apparent to Maradona for Argentina and Ronaldinho at Barcelona. U20 world cup winner as MVP, golden boy award 2005 etc His injuries are what limited his impact but when fit he was absolutely sensational.

I think this article sums it up:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/feb/24/championsleague1

Let me give you some other examples of the hype around him:
1. Messi at 17 had the exact same buyout clause as Ronaldinho I.e 100M Euros.
2. After the Juan Gamper trophy 2005 Barcelona vs Juve, Capello then manager of Juve was in absolute awe of Messi saying he had never seen anyone like Leo and even wanted him on loan
3. Ronaldinho after winning the 2005 ballond'or commented that he wasn't even the best at Barcelona, Messi was.
4. The Barcelona first team actually used to go watch him specifically play for the reserves and begged Rijkaard to allow him to join the first team.

Watch his performances vs the likes of Chelsea, Real Madrid, Udinese and league games for Barcelona. As for the hattrick vs Real, it wasn’t just the goals but his entire performance typically standing out ditto in the match vs Getafe, Mourinho's Chelsea etc.
 
Fortitude said:


18-years old.
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How can someone watch this and then claim that people think he's awesome (and easily comparable to today's greats) because of 'nostalgia'? I just don't get it.
 
Kwabs said:
Just a bunch of excuses. He wasn't good enough in the big spots and he'd probably tell you that himself. Saying stuff like 'managers messed it up for him' is just weak. The manager in 2018, for example, won the Copa America with Chile in 2015, beating Messi's Argentina in the final.

I don't know why you can't admit that he's not perfect. He's a human being. It's very strange. Every great player has parts of their career that you can point to and criticise. Messi is no different. And I've probably watched him play way more than you have, TBH.
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Yet he talked about stuff that actually happened too and with lots of truth in it. Sometimes timing and context it's a lot trickier and closer to the truth than your merely mental block view or the he almost never put a wrong foot from Wand.
 
I guess Messi, suarez, Neymar and Ronaldinho are the closest in the sense that their dangerous with their dribbling.
 
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