The only thing that truly matters with a player is if the team wins more or less with them, individual goals and assists are unimportant.
Don't disagree but that's why I find the Mbappe example interesting as he is highlighted as a player that is impacting team performance yet his individual goalscoring stats are a level above the rest in La Liga.Unsurprisingly, I’m going to have to disagree with the bloke who thinks Kobbie Mainoo is shit. You obviously need to factor in more than team performance to rate a player, as team performance can go up and down for reasons that have nothing to do with that player.
It matters a lot obviously. It's a team sport, the best players make their teams better and you can't discuss a player's legacy based on a what could have beenWhen the GOATs are debated, goals and assists are regularly brought up and I saw it used by posters when the debate over Henry vs Mbappe was brought forward recently, but how much should that individuals cohesion with their team be factored?
The answer is pretty obvious, and it was entirely predictable. Mbappe and Vini play basically the same position. They need the same setup. They can't fit together. Both are that good that they can compete for the Ballon d'Or, yet neither will show their best with the other there. So of course you can cover the absence of one of the other, when that actually lets the other guy step up and show their best form.It matters a lot obviously. It's a team sport, the best players make their teams better and you can't discuss a player's legacy based on a what could have been
In the case of Mbappé for example, Real Madrid is seemingly no worse without him than it is with him, and that is a huge black mark against him
A great deal. Mbappe’s real plaudits have come from him having synchronicity in successful teams (Monaco and France), whilst criticism has emerged in teams where his contributions subtract from the team. If you’re taking from others and unbalancing teams, there’s obviously an issue there to be investigated. You’re wherever you are to aid the team in its objectives after all. What point is your 50 goals if you’ve taken them off others who would have scored them anyway, whilst bettering and balancing the whole team?When the GOATs are debated, goals and assists are regularly brought up and I saw it used by posters when the debate over Henry vs Mbappe was brought forward recently, but how much should that individuals cohesion with their team be factored? We've seen PSG go up a level as a team since Mbappe left and there are arguments put forward by some Madristas here that they'd be better off as a team without Mbappe too. How much should that impact his legacy?
Any other examples?
Agree with this, but as I've said, we can only discuss a player's legacy on what was, not hypotheticals we can't quantifyI agree that influence on other players is important and hard to assess without being on the pitch and training ground with these players. However, positive influence cannot be measured by team success. That's outcome bias that hugely underplays the role of teammates, the wider squad, management team, and opposition in determining success.
Kevin Durant went to one of the best teams ever and made them even betterMbappe is football's Kevin Durant.
Kevin Durant went to one of the best teams ever and made them even better
Okay should have said, Mbappe is Kevin Durant post Warriors era. Its not that the teams he leaves are suddenly amazing but that everywhere he goes there are cohesion issues and the vibes are off.
Cristiano was 33 when he left Madrid thoughLike Ronaldo post Madrid? The fact is the balance wasnt instantly perfect there for him to succeed but they built around him in his prime. Anybody who has built around Ronaldo since has been disappointed
Cristiano was 33 when he left Madrid though
When Madrid built around him, we won 4 CL in 5 years, and he was a massive part of those successes
That assumes all other things are equal, where the team is the same as it was before, with and without the player.Agree with this, but as I've said, we can only discuss a player's legacy on what was, not hypotheticals we can't quantify
If player X played on team Z and was great individually but his team was no better with him on the pitch than without, than that's what we can judge him on. Speculating on the whys and hows is pointless
Not really when you consider a massive criticism of Mbappe has been his indifference to tracking back or helping with the press or any kind of contribution to the team outside of his own interests. PSG’s midfield works in tandem with a fiercely disciplined and selfless attack who aid them whenever they can. Enrique pulled his hair out with Mbappe’s sheer disregard for what he was trying to instil in him.That assumes all other things are equal, where the team is the same as it was before, with and without the player.
If all other things are not equal, then the player cannot be easily judged for their impact on the team.
In Mbappe's case, if PSG have built a great midfield since his departure, while Real Madrid have deconstructed theirs since his arrival, then we are comparing apples with oranges.
I agree with both points. But I'm not convinced that indifference can be isolated as the decisive factor when there so many other variables at play in a team sport. It is a factor, but there's a narrative that it is the principal one. It is clear that Madrid have a weaker midfield that no longer controls games at the elite level, Madrid have failed to find the balance in attack with Vinicius and Mbappe, Madrid have imploded by sacking Alonso, while PSG have brought through all-timer quality in deeper areas. Mbappe working more would obviously help Real's defensive effort, but it won't fix the fundamental issues behind him or alongside him in squeezeing similar players together in the attack. It may even come at a cost of the exceptional individual outputs both in goals and creativity, while that same lack of defensive effort never stopped Messi, Cristiano, second-half-of-career Salah, Romario and others from enjoying the fruits of the platform provided by more cohesive and better designed teams.Not really when you consider a massive criticism of Mbappe has been his indifference to tracking back or helping with the press or any kind of contribution to the team outside of his own interests. PSG’s midfield works in tandem with a fiercely disciplined and selfless attack who aid them whenever they can. Enrique pulled his hair out with Mbappe’s sheer disregard for what he was trying to instil in him.
But controlling games at that level partially comes down to how quickly you can win and recycle the ball to keep the pressure up and the screws turning. Mbappe is failing his teams by not executing what is expected of him; when the team is built for him, then he can be a player that doesn’t have to worry about contingencies outside of attacking, but he’s not had that and doesn’t give two figs about adaptation or accommodating in the meantime. He’s also cannibalising attacking space, which is why not one, but two key contributors to their last CL win look so neutered.I agree with both points. But I'm not convinced that indifference can be isolated as the decisive factor when there so many other variables at play in a team sport. It is a factor, but there's a narrative that it is the principal one. It is clear that Madrid have a weaker midfield that no longer controls games at the elite level, Madrid have failed to find the balance in attack with Vinicius and Mbappe, Madrid have imploded by sacking Alonso, while PSG have brought through all-timer quality in deeper areas. Mbappe working more would obviously help Real's defensive effort, but it won't fix the fundamental issues behind him or alongside him in squeezeing similar players together in the attack. It may even come at a cost of the exceptional individual outputs both in goals and creativity, while that same lack of defensive effort never stopped Messi, Cristiano, second-half-of-career Salah, Romario and others from enjoying the fruits of the platform provided by more cohesive and better designed teams.
The problem is that it's essentially impossible to isolate the player as the sole variable.
edit: exactly what the guy above me said.
No doubt but not the point I was making. Real won 6 of the last 12 Champions Leagues and the majority with a forward who didn't press.@Gio look at the insane amount of work PSG’s frontline are getting through off the ball. World class players grafting like rabid dogs - Mbappe there, that doesn’t happen.
But also with a cohesive unit that worked for one another. Mbappe’s not much interested in that, either.No doubt but not the point I was making. Real won 6 of the last 12 Champions Leagues and the majority with a forward who didn't press.
20 million of them at last count.When the GOATs are debated, goals and assists are regularly brought up and I saw it used by posters when the debate over Henry vs Mbappe was brought forward recently, but how much should that individuals cohesion with their team be factored? We've seen PSG go up a level as a team since Mbappe left and there are arguments put forward by some Madristas here that they'd be better off as a team without Mbappe too. How much should that impact his legacy?
Any other examples?
