How should the breakaway clubs be dealt with now?

[do.ob]

They agreed a deal that they reneged on. If you sign up to Sky and cancel within the two week grace period before your Sky box was delivered, did you really ever have Sky?

These examples are killing me

You can revoke your freshly signed Sky contract, because of some consumer protection law or the good will of the company. Not because contracts in general are somehow meaningless or without consequence if you realize you fecked up two days later.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But that isn't my point. I do understand that when legal sanctions come into play it's different. But for internal football matters clubs (and by extension the fans and players) are often 'punished'. No-one acted illegally when the local FA screwed up the paperwork, but the club were still thrown out of the FA Vase and so fans were punished. No -one acted illegally when a non leageue team didn't have a lock on their changing room toilet doors, but the club were thrown out of the league (and in terms of this thread the players and fans were punished). I'm not talking about legal spheres, I'm talking about the way football has always acted against clubs when someone (sometimes not even the club) has broken some ( in many cases minor) infringement of league or FA rules, whether the individual club has been responsible or not. And in the cases I've cited the club, and not individuals, were acted against.

Do you have any links for these bizarre examples @Erebus?

Defo need a source here.

 

[Tallis]

These examples are killing me

You can revoke your freshly signed Sky contract, because of some consumer protection law or the good will of the company. Not because contracts in general are somehow meaningless or without consequence if you realize you fecked up two days later.

For infringement or breach of a contractual agreement, the most common remedy the courts will look for is making good on the contractual agreement you had. As long as we are playing in the league and not playing in the other, I can’t see what rules or agreements we are violating. If anything, we are liable to Perez and others for having broken the binding Super league agreement.

This is not criminal law where you had intent to commit a crime and can be punished because of that.

 

[do.ob]

For infringement or breach of a contractual agreement, the most common remedy the courts will look for is making good on the contractual agreement you had. As long as we are playing in the league and not playing in the other, I can’t see what rules or agreements we are violating. If anything, we are liable to Perez and others for having broken the binding Super league agreement.

This is not criminal law where you had intent to commit a crime and can be punished because of that.

I don't know what the rules of UEFA for these cases are or what mechanisms/options they have for punishment, I'm just saying that signing a contract is not a meaningless act.

 

[The Substitute]

Have to laugh at comments about Chelsea and City were the "good" guys in all of this. Truth be told they are the only owners that don't give a sh*t whether they get 300 or 900m a year.

For them it's a toy/marketing purpose behind the ownership. For the others it's all about the cash

 

[Rooney1987]

If you do maybe 10 point deduction, no Europe next season, big fine and punish the owners some how, then maybe that is just about ok for them. Anything worse I think would create another problem.

 

[Jerzol78]

Let's make for the Dirty Dozen The Hunger Games.
Teams play each other in July and August. 1 point for a draw, 3 points for a win, like in every league.
1-2 position gains CL entrance
3. position - EL entrance
4-6 position - nothing happens
7-12 position ban for european competitions in 2022/2023 season.

But joking aside, It wouldn't be a bad idea that all Dirty Dozen clubs that are in a position to qualify to the CL, would have to play each other in play-offs in order to qualify.

 

[alexthelion]

If you do maybe 10 point deduction, no Europe next season, big fine and punish the owners some how, then maybe that is just about ok for them. Anything worse I think would create another problem.

Why points deduction? They had no intention of leaving the PL, so why punish them?

 

[TheReligion]

If you do maybe 10 point deduction, no Europe next season, big fine and punish the owners some how, then maybe that is just about ok for them. Anything worse I think would create another problem.

What you rambling on about here

 

[TheReligion]

The people begging for some ridiculous punishments are the ultimate urchins of the Caf.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't see what rules they've broken? They haven't intended to leave the Premier League so how can they be penalised in that competition?

Ultimately they've failed in an attempt to create an entirely new competition, I understand the sporting ethics were a disgrace (which is what caused it to fail from the outset) however I don't think it's entirely right that UEFA should hold a monopoly over the clubs in this way either. It wouldn't happen in any other business sector.

At worst any punishment should be relative to the competition it would have effected, the CL.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There's an easy way around this, all owners must reside within the UK and have regular meetings with certified fan groups.

Or, all football clubs must have a fan elected board member with veto rights over certain matters such as this.

In fact, the more you think about it the less necessary it is to demand 50+1, if legislation is introduced to ensure every football board must have a fan elected member on it with certain voting and veto rights, that solves many of the issues we see today. You could add in extra legislation regarding debt and max dividend payments etc.

If the government, FA and UEFA want to "fix football", there's quite a few things they could do without too much "hoo ha".

 

[Tomuś]

All involved clubs should be banned for a year from Europe.

You obviously don't say it just because Ajax weren't invited.

 

[Rooney1987]

What you rambling on about here

Scroll up and read. You'll see chat about punishments and points deductions. I've not read the contracts and neither have you, your guess is as good as mine. I'm just guessing if the PL or UEFA can and could do something this is what they could do.

 

[duffer]

I don't see what rules they've broken? They haven't intended to leave the Premier League so how can they be penalised in that competition?

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

 

[Gandalf]

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

This has been looked at from a legal perspective already and it was not broken. The first line is intended to refer to the current season which for this purpose would be the 2020/21 season. The rule is only broken if the unapproved competition takes place during that time frame. For arguments sake if the ESL was going to kick off in the 2021/22 season and the clubs did not have approval then they would be in breech of this rule on the first day of the corresponding PL season. This rule cannot be applied to competitions taking place during some unspecified future season.

With regards to the written approval, supposedly this was being sought and the process was going to be followed but with the whole thing falling apart in 48 hours it became a moot point.

 

[alexthelion]

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

So, they've broken none of those rules because they've not played any SL games.

|In that case, no punishment should be meted out.

 

[TheReligion]

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

Yeah so they didn't break the rules

 

[RUCK4444]

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

Ah I see. OK but if I'm reading it correctly they would have to have actually taken part in games outside of those competitions right?

So although the intention was there to do so, they didn't actually break the rules.

 

[duffer]

Ah I see. OK but if I'm reading it correctly they would have to have actually taken part in games outside of those competitions right?

So although the intention was there to do so, they didn't actually break the rules.

Yeah, I don't really know but that's what a lot of the media have said is the rule the shitty 6 were looking to break.

I personally don't think they'll get punished other than maybe a fine.

 

[Mindhunter]

Punish them by approving the Saudi takeover of Newcastle.

 

[RUCK4444]

Yeah, I don't really know but that's what a lot of the media have said is the rule the shitty 6 were looking to break.

I personally don't think they'll get punished other than maybe a fine.

Yeah I can't see that they've broken a rule, I think they've at least read the rules of the league and ensured they haven’t broken any.

Might be difficult to actually impose any punishment, especially as it’s a pretty unprecedented scenario.

I said previous I think what UEFA will do is make it harder to try this again going forward, that will be their priority over slapping the clubs on the wrists imo.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No-one acted illegally when the local FA screwed up the paperwork, but the club were still thrown out of the FA Vase and so fans were punished.

@Erebus That FA Vase example wasn't North Ferriby from yesterday was it?

Because if it was, yes they did break the rules and the team did profit by playing an ineligible player that helped them win the round. Can you confirm ? I'm asking for an example where an entire club/team was punished where no financial or sporting benefit was gained?

 

[Jippy]

How can UEFA/PL really punish privately owned clubs? Is there any legal clause in the PL/CL that participating clubs cant form another league on their own?

The ownership structure doesn't affect whether they can be punished or not. Yes, they'll have signed some form of exclusivity deal in their contract in terms of competition participation. Think how strict the rules are about daft things like having a sponsor logo on your shirt sleeve. There'll be shedloads on competitions they participate in, same with the TV contracts.

 

[Erebus]

@Erebus That FA Vase example wasn't North Ferriby from yesterday was it?

Because if it was, yes they did break the rules and the team did profit by playing an ineligible player that helped them win the round. Can you confirm ? I'm asking for an example where an entire club/team was punished where no financial or sporting benefit was gained?

Yes it was North Ferriby, but it's a bit more complex that that. Because the error in the reporting of the card was down to the FA system, with the local FA accepting it wasn't the clubs fault . Indeed the local FA supported North Ferriby in a letter of mitigation. The issue is the club did nothing wrong, it was the non-league reporting system established by the FA that screwed it up, but the club was punished. I think my basic point is to those who are complaining that any punishment would hurt fans and players when they weren't responsible for the ESL. I just think there's examples galore (especially in non-league) where clubs are punished and that means fans and players are hurt. I think it's a regular thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it happens a lot

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Yeah I can't see that they've broken a rule, I think they've at least read the rules of the league and ensured they haven’t broken any.

Might be difficult to actually impose any punishment, especially as it’s a pretty unprecedented scenario.

I said previous I think what UEFA will do is make it harder to try this again going forward, that will be their priority over slapping the clubs on the wrists imo.

I agree. It’s all about stopping this happening in the future - that’s what UEFA and to a lesser extend the PL will try to enforce. They won’t punish the clubs, but try and cut off their balls to they can’t do anything in the future.

 

[Someone]

If the humiliation of backing down a mere 48 hours after joining the league isn't punishment enough, then turning large portions of their fanbases against themselves (hurting commercial revenue in the process) along with damaging their reputations to an irreparable state, should about cover it.

At the end of the day, the only people they hurt with this nonsense is themselves.

Agree. Any other punishment would be against the club and the fans. If they can find a way to punish just the owners I'm sure the fans would be all for it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes it was North Ferriby, but it's a bit more complex that that. Because the error in the reporting of the card was down to the local FA, who admitted it wasn't the clubs fault but they were responsible. Indeed the local FA supported North Ferriby in their appeal. The issue is the club did nothing wrong, it was the local FA that screwed it up, but the club was punished.

The club played a suspended player and won the cup tie, thus profiting from that rule break.
They absolutely did something wrong, he was suspended.
Their records were poor and they got poor info from the local FA but it’s ultimately the club’s responsibility to keep track of yellow cards and suspensions so yes, they broke rules, benefitted and rightfully in line with rules forfeited the match, their opponents reinstated as is correct in that situation.

 

[terraloo]

How about a 1-2 year transfer ban for the clubs involved?
It would save money for the 12 and would make the CL and the 3 National Leagues more competitive.

That sanction would have to come from FIFA

 

[terraloo]

What further muddies the waters is the fact that the clubs didn't agree to participate it was all about there intention to participate.

I had a email exchange today with someone far more qualified than me and he felt it likely that the wording would almost certainly have made mention that they intended to play in the ESL but only if sanctioned.
He felt the clubs would know that they would be out on a limb if the PL said no so he felt any lawyer worth their salt wouldn’t have covered that possibility

 

[Foxbatt]

The PL teams should be punished for being stupid. Why the hell should they be trying to save the asses off Real Madrid and Barcelona? Or the three Italian clubs?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The PL teams should be punished for being stupid. Why the hell should they be trying to save the asses off Real Madrid and Barcelona? Or the three Italian clubs?

To ultimately save/protect themselves.

All clubs spend with a Champions League budget, they have to or City will simply walk it forever and ever (they might anyway due to being so much richer than the entire league put together).

Liverpool missing out on CL this season really puts them in a bad position, as it does for Spurs & Arsenal. The alternative is simply for them all to understand that they can’t fight City so instead should accept their fate and budget without CL.

 

[Foxbatt]

City doesn't have the best players. They have the best coach and the best team. That's why they win most matches. They play as a team. Liverpool no longer do play as a team. That's why they are struggling. Manchester United can buy the same class of players like City.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

City doesn't have the best players. They have the best coach and the best team. That's why they win most matches. They play as a team. Liverpool no longer do play as a team. That's why they are struggling. Manchester United can buy the same class of players like City.

City are about to win 3 of the last 4 PL titles and have a bottomless pit of money. A tinpot team took Pep from Bayern Munich because they can make him the best paid coach in the World and buy him a new 60m defender every Summer if he doesn’t like the one he just bought.

Pep has spent 1bn euros since he took over, 1bn fecking euros man

 

[sglowrider]

The punishments so far seems to punish the football side of the club ... and therefore the fans. Thats precisely what the Big Six fans were complaining about with the formation of the ESL. 'Taking football away from the fans' and yet once again, they get punished for the acts of a handful of financial people within the clubs and now by the FA and UEFA?

The fairest punishment has to be targetted at those involved -- the financial side of the club. Ole, the coaching staff nor the players participated in the discussions nor had even any knowledge of the SL. It's simply unfair to punish them for their hard work on & off the field.

Punish the owners. Pass a law/impose a penalty within the FA and UEFA that eliminates discretionary payments like 'management fees' or dividends that are paid to the owners for 10 years. No payments to be paid to them in any form, newly created shell companies or otherwise.

Have an equivalent of an FFP panel to monitor this. Eye for an eye.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Imagine if we get a transfer ban as punishment Glazers would love that.

 

[jeff gurr]

A 20 point league deduction so Leicester can win again !

 

[Ecstatic]

The punishment should be only financial so that the big 12 would have to sell their players to poorest clubs like Bayern and PSG to save football that may die in the next 12 weeks if clubs like Juve/Barcelona struggle to decently pay Messi and Cristiano (a decent salary excluding bonus for them should be something like 12 million per semester).

 

[Giggsyking]

This is the Premier League rule they were trying to break...

“Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than

L.9.1 – The UEFA Champions League
L.9.2 – The UEFA Europa League
L.9.3 – The FA Cup
L.9.4 – The FA Community Shield
L.9.5 – The Football League Cup or
L.9.6 – Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member.”

I thought it was easy, have we started season 2021/2022 already?

 

[Giggsyking]

How about a 1-2 year transfer ban for the clubs involved?
It would save money for the 12 and would make the CL and the 3 National Leagues more competitive.

So instead of punishing the Glazers, you reward them