Rebuild seems like never ending. Every time there is a change of manager, rebuild restarted once again.
How the Rebuild is going
- Thread starter SER19
- Start date
6/10. Many gaps, starting with the coach / game model. I'd have sacked Amorim, found a new coach and fixed the midfield first.
Great OP mate, good effort
Ha ha, yeah. I am quietly optimistic based on the Arsenal and Burnley performances but I have been burnt before with ETH and the Antony, Onana buys.
I agree actually. The big mistake that got us to this point was letting ten Hag decide our transfer targets. Mercifully that trend seems over. No signings the managers old players or random thirty somethings good 5 years previously like under Woodward.
It is the first time post Fergie that I felt we are really re-building. Behind the scenes, it started with the new owners, new structure, new stadium, new training center. Our transfers seemed sensible and long term view but it will take time to pay off. We sold players that weren't committed, some fan's favorite like Ganarcho, Rashford(loan not sold). Woodward would never sell them but instead offer high wages to extend them.
Amorim's stubbornness can be his success or downfall. The pros is that the players knows they won't change his way so they had to adapt or be frozen out. This is first time post Mourinho that the club, the coach are all align in rooting out player power. The con is that he knows has to adapt at some point - he said as much in his post Burnley press conference that he will eventually adapt to other system but he wants players to be fully able to play this system first. As a fan I'm excited by the prospect of a team capable of playing multiple systems but we better get there soon or he might not be here to oversee it.
Football wise, it is first time post LVG, we see some pattern of plays, new style of playing. Ole talked alot about hardwork, ETH talks a lot about fitness but this is first time I've see our players being really fit.
Amorim might have the worst record but taken in context of injuries, changes, players leaving, new system last season. I'm only going to view this season as his first. 1 win 1 draw and 1 loss is not too bad. We played faster, better chances created, all the signs of progress are clearly visible. So all in all I think we are heading towards the right direction, we need 2 more transfer windows to complete this. I hope Amorim will still be here to oversee this. He is still young and capable of adapting.
Amorim's stubbornness can be his success or downfall. The pros is that the players knows they won't change his way so they had to adapt or be frozen out. This is first time post Mourinho that the club, the coach are all align in rooting out player power. The con is that he knows has to adapt at some point - he said as much in his post Burnley press conference that he will eventually adapt to other system but he wants players to be fully able to play this system first. As a fan I'm excited by the prospect of a team capable of playing multiple systems but we better get there soon or he might not be here to oversee it.
Football wise, it is first time post LVG, we see some pattern of plays, new style of playing. Ole talked alot about hardwork, ETH talks a lot about fitness but this is first time I've see our players being really fit.
Amorim might have the worst record but taken in context of injuries, changes, players leaving, new system last season. I'm only going to view this season as his first. 1 win 1 draw and 1 loss is not too bad. We played faster, better chances created, all the signs of progress are clearly visible. So all in all I think we are heading towards the right direction, we need 2 more transfer windows to complete this. I hope Amorim will still be here to oversee this. He is still young and capable of adapting.
This is really the crux of it right? Early season optimism and we begin to rate all our players and the season comes and goes and we realize how shit the squad is. Let's see if it's only LCB, DM and a WB.
Dorgu went from shit, to best WB back to shit. Same with Bruno, Mount, De Ligt and co. Is Amad a WB? Does Amorim's game model even work? What if we go to a 4-3-3? What if some players get injured?
That squad isn’t manageable for a team that’s only in 2 comps. It’s the size of most squads competing in the CL. Cunha, Mbuemo and Sesko will all be on big wages. Bruno signed an extension last summer on huge wages, De Ligt is without a doubt on one of the largest wages for a defender in the world, don’t forget Case, Mount, Shaw and Maguire. Hopefully come next summer Case and Maguire will be gone but then Rashford will be back.
Pretty good, Sesko was a bit weird buy for that price but overall it's promising. I think that PL proven players are so vital, because it has shown that it takes time to bed in for other league players.
I'd like to have seen one CM addition, such as Agoume or whoever. If we are talking about building the squad for the balance and the future, then I suggest this winter and next summer we will see 2-3 new players in midfield (replacing Casemiro, maybe Ugarte and Bruno), replacement for Shaw in LCB/LB side and not certain about De Ligt. He is quite good, but he is not what should get success in PL. It seems that physicality, especially speed and stamina are most important factors compared to other leagues (intelligence in Serie A, agility and passing in La Liga).
And from United perspective, best balance is when you have youngsters mixed with experience, but Casemiro is on too high wages and cannot play longer than 60 minutes. Shaw is still a liability because of his past, Dalot is a bit of a liability too, Ugarte is weird, because I understood he is quite good but he isn't. He has the traits, but I suggest it's a double pivot he isn't that good.
If we are talking about double pivots, then there must be two great, energetic players when you plan to dominate in this league. I am not even certain if Baleba+Wharton is enough. This rumour about Camavinga was interesting, he'd be quite good here. But we need less attacking players for mid and more balanced players there. Attack is good enough.
I'd like to have seen one CM addition, such as Agoume or whoever. If we are talking about building the squad for the balance and the future, then I suggest this winter and next summer we will see 2-3 new players in midfield (replacing Casemiro, maybe Ugarte and Bruno), replacement for Shaw in LCB/LB side and not certain about De Ligt. He is quite good, but he is not what should get success in PL. It seems that physicality, especially speed and stamina are most important factors compared to other leagues (intelligence in Serie A, agility and passing in La Liga).
And from United perspective, best balance is when you have youngsters mixed with experience, but Casemiro is on too high wages and cannot play longer than 60 minutes. Shaw is still a liability because of his past, Dalot is a bit of a liability too, Ugarte is weird, because I understood he is quite good but he isn't. He has the traits, but I suggest it's a double pivot he isn't that good.
If we are talking about double pivots, then there must be two great, energetic players when you plan to dominate in this league. I am not even certain if Baleba+Wharton is enough. This rumour about Camavinga was interesting, he'd be quite good here. But we need less attacking players for mid and more balanced players there. Attack is good enough.
So
Antony
Rashford
Sancho
Garnacho
Hojland
All above out the door
In Cunha, Mbuemo, Sesko, lammens with eyes set on baleba who from what i understand can play the 6? Or is the idea to buy another 6 and baleba and have them two dominate the midfield.
Dalot needs replacing, CBs im happy with.
We could switch to a 4-3-3 asking Bruno to still “sit deeper” even though he doesn’t and of course Casemiro and ugarte need upgrading. Not sure why we didn’t loan a CM or two but. It’s not so bad. One more window and we can be really dangerous. Bring in a CDM and a CM and a fullback or wingback that can play both sides
Antony
Rashford
Sancho
Garnacho
Hojland
All above out the door
In Cunha, Mbuemo, Sesko, lammens with eyes set on baleba who from what i understand can play the 6? Or is the idea to buy another 6 and baleba and have them two dominate the midfield.
Dalot needs replacing, CBs im happy with.
We could switch to a 4-3-3 asking Bruno to still “sit deeper” even though he doesn’t and of course Casemiro and ugarte need upgrading. Not sure why we didn’t loan a CM or two but. It’s not so bad. One more window and we can be really dangerous. Bring in a CDM and a CM and a fullback or wingback that can play both sides
I fully understand your feeling.Ha ha, yeah. I am quietly optimistic based on the Arsenal and Burnley performances but I have been burnt before with ETH and the Antony, Onana buys.
Not at all. Isak went for twice as much, Gyokeres was the same. Good strikers have hugely inflated prices
The rebuild is going very well. Again, we have to be realistic, you dont solve an issue that has been created over ten years.
Outgoings were right and thank god they left.
Buys have been smart and very good.
The club itself is rebuilding, the structures are getting in place, maybe a new stadium, solid finances
Outgoings were right and thank god they left.
Buys have been smart and very good.
The club itself is rebuilding, the structures are getting in place, maybe a new stadium, solid finances
@SER19
Regarding the LCB do you think Heaven can follow Yoro’s path of being phased in this season and ultimately become the starter next year?
He has the raw ingredients - left footed, height, mobility and physicality.
Regarding the LCB do you think Heaven can follow Yoro’s path of being phased in this season and ultimately become the starter next year?
He has the raw ingredients - left footed, height, mobility and physicality.
I really hope so, I thought he looked promising and it would obviously save us big if he did the step up sooner than expected. Even if he does, I think in the next 2 years or so we will be adding depth/quality to those back 3 spots as maguire, shaw will leave and martinez not yet reliable with injuries
Yeah as much as we all wanted it, I think in years gone by, we would have panicked and signed the 'wrong midfielder'. See ugarte, casemiro. We are learning from mistakes it seems
How are there many gaps?
He hasn't shown the defensive quality to be first 11 yet.
Ok,didnt realise deligt was close to vvd trent and co in wages.. as for not manageable squad, 4 games into season.new keeper ,Heaton and tyrel(bombsquad) only players who haven't got mins. We now have a few knocks. The squad is manageable. Big wages for the new guys. About 150 to 190 probably. We were giving out 250 to 300 for Casemiro and sancho. Be positive. Our wage bill is well down,lot of fat is trimmed off squad.we cant get everything done rapid when you've contracts involved. Its 2 to 3yr job.but at least now everyone earning a wage is building into Ruben,some maybe crap,but they arent garnacho etc and being toxic
We've done as well as could be reasonably expected in a short amount of time. Next steps should be:
Winter window: show one of Onana/Altay the door, as well as Malacia. And for goodness sake, bring in a midfielder.
Next summer: unload whichever of Onana/Altay are left, as well as Shaw, Maguire, Casemiro, and Bruno. Bring in another keeper, at least one wingback, another midfielder, and maybe another striker.
Winter window: show one of Onana/Altay the door, as well as Malacia. And for goodness sake, bring in a midfielder.
Next summer: unload whichever of Onana/Altay are left, as well as Shaw, Maguire, Casemiro, and Bruno. Bring in another keeper, at least one wingback, another midfielder, and maybe another striker.
What are you on about? There has been plenty reports suggesting the 3 signed this summer are between 150-170k which is not big wages.
Bruno is our captain, is on big wages ageed.
De Ligt is definitely not in the largest wages... he is on half of what VVD is on... De Ligt is under 200k... So I am not sure where you are getting your information from?
Of course its different. Those "rebuilds", weren't rebuilds at all. It was a new manager coming in and randomly choosing a few new players that they knew / had heard of / had been recommended by someone they knew etc...
For a rebuild to be a rebuild, and for it to be a successful rebuild, it needs a strategic direction. We have that now thanks to Wilcox and the team.
Without going into specifics, other than the total lack of a cohesive strategy, there was a total lack of understanding of how we wanted to play and what a modern Premier League footballer looked like.
Again, you can already see that's been fixed. All of the players that have come in are physically gifted. No slow, weak, lazy, passive players of 5ft CBs. All athletes of the highest order. That's a massive improvement before a ball is even kicked.
True but we have a track record of picking up tons of injuries so we probably need a bigger squad
Athletic to some degree yes, knowing how to play our formation no. Every one of those rebuilds had a strategic direction and it was one far easier to achieve because each team post Moyes played the same formation 4-2-3-1. This is the first time we're trying to overhaul the entire formation and also we're doing the worst we've ever done.
Squad rebuild I think is going decently well. There are actually a fair few amount of players I rate that play for us every weekend. I also like that we aren't signing players specifically tailored to a certain system.
Coaching/results rebuild has been a bit of a disaster. That will be the next big decision that INEOS has to make. I don't think we'll turn it around with Amorim enough.
Coaching/results rebuild has been a bit of a disaster. That will be the next big decision that INEOS has to make. I don't think we'll turn it around with Amorim enough.
I think the second part of the rebuild will look like this:
Goalkeepers: Lammens, New GK
Defenders: Yoro, Maz, Dalot, de Ligt, New CB, Shaw, Martinez, Heaven, Dorgu
Midfielders: New CM, New CM, New CM, Mainoo
Forwards: Mbeumo, Amad, Cunha, Mount, Sesko, New ST
Goalkeepers: Lammens, New GK
Defenders: Yoro, Maz, Dalot, de Ligt, New CB, Shaw, Martinez, Heaven, Dorgu
Midfielders: New CM, New CM, New CM, Mainoo
Forwards: Mbeumo, Amad, Cunha, Mount, Sesko, New ST
Rebuild good so far. Investing in PL proven attackers will lift us into European places.
Next season, Wilcox will likely continue purchasing PL proven midfielders along with young players to supplement and build the squad. I wouldn’t be shocked if we were in for Wharton and Baleba after sanctioning the sale of Bruno and seeing Casemiro finally depart. The way Liverpool and Chelsea have distorted the transfer market the last 5 season, we’re likely looking at an expenditure of at least £200 million on both of them alone.
Next season, Wilcox will likely continue purchasing PL proven midfielders along with young players to supplement and build the squad. I wouldn’t be shocked if we were in for Wharton and Baleba after sanctioning the sale of Bruno and seeing Casemiro finally depart. The way Liverpool and Chelsea have distorted the transfer market the last 5 season, we’re likely looking at an expenditure of at least £200 million on both of them alone.
Bloody hell. We really assembled a total pile of shit
As Amorim keeps saying, it's not really about systems and formations. That's the simple narrative the media want to push. Loads of teams, including top teams, play a very similar system to us. We're not reinventing the wheel tactically, although each manager will have their own ideas and preferences within a set of system(s).
In reality, we were / are bad for a huge number of reasons, but the primary one was / is we woefully lacked the physical attributes required for Premier League football. The squad assembled pre-EtH was poor physically, and Rangnick called that out as our number one problem.
We then let him leave, and bought in EtH, who, showing the kind of genius football insight that led him to be found out after two games at Leverkusen, proceeded to fill the squad with even slower, even weaker, even smaller, even more unfit players.
The good thing (which might point to the stupidity of the club) is that all the players that we have bought can play in a 4 2 3 1/4 3 3, so when the inevitable happens we are not going to be stuck with "system" players. Cunho looks really good and Mbuemo I think has the potential to go up another level. Just a shame that this formation consistently leaves them exposed with hardly any options around them. Dorgu I feel like we just bought a left footed Wan Bissaka which is annoying. Has great energy though. Still concerning that our 2nd biggest weakness which is our midfield has just been ignored.
The squad looks decent, still short of some of the squads that we've had post fergie.
The squad looks decent, still short of some of the squads that we've had post fergie.
Everyone agrees that we're short a 6, and without even having played a single game for us we can't be sure how long Lammens will need to adapt to the prem. Where there is reasonable disagreement is the quality of the players we have on the back and front lines, and whether Bruno can deliver the goods under Amorim's tactics.
We'll have to see what Cunha, Sesko and Mbeumo bring to the table, but if we can indulge the belief that they will perform at the level they performed at last season, we have no excuses for not being in the top 4/5 hunt this season. We did well, but of course lost, against Arsenal and we did poorly, but missed a pen for the win, against Fulham. And yes we scraped against Burn-effin-ley, but there's no doubt that we deserved that win even if it required a late pen.
Armorim needs to find the glue to make this squad a team, and the jury is very much out on whether he's the right man for the job.
We'll have to see what Cunha, Sesko and Mbeumo bring to the table, but if we can indulge the belief that they will perform at the level they performed at last season, we have no excuses for not being in the top 4/5 hunt this season. We did well, but of course lost, against Arsenal and we did poorly, but missed a pen for the win, against Fulham. And yes we scraped against Burn-effin-ley, but there's no doubt that we deserved that win even if it required a late pen.
Armorim needs to find the glue to make this squad a team, and the jury is very much out on whether he's the right man for the job.
Poor in CM seems to be consensus, but I also think that our options at wing back are quite poor. In my opinion we are weak or have serious question marks over GK, CM, WB, manager and striker. A lot of things have to work out for us to finish top 5, or even top 7.
So Dalot/Amad and Dorgu/Leon as WBs? Not very impressive.
This. Unfortunately, after finishing 15th, writing off last season & spending £200m+ this window, I still can't see any patterns. Looks like players are closing down better but not much else, + the individual brilliance of some players.
I remember in the early days, he said something about players learning how to slow things down. I can't see that, we're still in a rush to pass the ball like a hot potato.
How does he think a mid of Casemiro and Bruno works is beyond me, and stop tinkering with the defense, especially mid game FFS. I also find that when we're chasing a game, he throws the kitchen sink but in a disorganised way.
I feel he could do with better coaches as well.
In terms of player upgrade, RB is an issue and potentially midfield if we are going to stick with 523. In a 433 midfield looks a bit better but Dalot should only ever be a backup.
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Very good take, I agree, we may only be needing 2/3 first team players next summer, unless we bring in 1/2 in Jan, in my opinion we are 3 players away and 2 cover players away from having a solid team:
2x CMs (1x 6 & 1x 8)
RWB - we need an improvement over Dalot
LWB* - Dorgu could also be improved upon but may only need cover as Leon develops
LCB - Guehi would be perfect on a free
Is how I feel.
The whole idea of a rebuild is exaggerated. All teams are always in flux and will have ins and outs every summer. Better just to judge the window on its own terms. Is the squad better now than it was before? Yes.
Are there still positions that the club would wish to improve? Also yes.
Finish significantly higher than last year's 15th? Surely.
Now that the window is closed it's over to Amorim to implement his vision.
There are good reasons to think we will play better football than last season and I'm looking forward to it.
Are there still positions that the club would wish to improve? Also yes.
Finish significantly higher than last year's 15th? Surely.
Now that the window is closed it's over to Amorim to implement his vision.
There are good reasons to think we will play better football than last season and I'm looking forward to it.
I remember the now infamous image of Garnacho, Hojlund and Mainoo sitting on the advertising boards celebrating a goal - we were convinced they were going to spearhead the rebuild of the club into greener pastures. Don't think any of us expected that two out of the three would have been sold the following summer, and the remaining one can't get a kick in, and was supposedly pressing for a loan move.
The positives I will take from this supposed 'rebuild' is how we've seemingly fixed our broken wage structure, and have finally started to be ruthless in trying to isolate and force out players who are either a toxic influence, lazy mercenaries, not good enough, or a combination of all three. And while they might not all work out, I'm relatively pleased with the profile of the signings we've made - namely PL proven stars or recruiting on the back of solid data analysis, as well as avoiding the bad value panic signings we were notorious for making in the past (Donarrumma would have had all the hallmarks of a classic Woodward signing, as would have paying £60mil for Ollie Watkins).
Obvious huge question marks about the manager, and whether we're still prone to giving our ailing managers more time than warranted, but there's at least some form of identity we're trying to cultivate on the pitch, even if it hasn't looked particularly great.
I'm probably a bit more optimistic than the average doomer here and other United forums, but putting that cursed Grimsby game aside (almost impossible I know), I've been encouraged by what I've seen so far. I think we were unlucky not to get something out of the Arsenal game and came out empty handed essentially down to a goalkeeping error. The Fulham game was a bit meh but we should have won it, and in regards to Burnley we really should have smashed them in the first half and put the game to bed early.
The positives I will take from this supposed 'rebuild' is how we've seemingly fixed our broken wage structure, and have finally started to be ruthless in trying to isolate and force out players who are either a toxic influence, lazy mercenaries, not good enough, or a combination of all three. And while they might not all work out, I'm relatively pleased with the profile of the signings we've made - namely PL proven stars or recruiting on the back of solid data analysis, as well as avoiding the bad value panic signings we were notorious for making in the past (Donarrumma would have had all the hallmarks of a classic Woodward signing, as would have paying £60mil for Ollie Watkins).
Obvious huge question marks about the manager, and whether we're still prone to giving our ailing managers more time than warranted, but there's at least some form of identity we're trying to cultivate on the pitch, even if it hasn't looked particularly great.
I'm probably a bit more optimistic than the average doomer here and other United forums, but putting that cursed Grimsby game aside (almost impossible I know), I've been encouraged by what I've seen so far. I think we were unlucky not to get something out of the Arsenal game and came out empty handed essentially down to a goalkeeping error. The Fulham game was a bit meh but we should have won it, and in regards to Burnley we really should have smashed them in the first half and put the game to bed early.
I think you have a typo in your title, it should say "how is final destruction and selling for parts going"? 
Good post.
In terms of what's needed next season, is the LCB a priority requirement. We have Shaw, Licha and Heaven (prospect). Yoro has also filled in the past.
With Case leaving (almost certainly), Bruno (possibly), Mainoo (possibly) and Ugarte (manager doesn't seem to rate him) - we probably need to sign 2-3 midfielders. And maybe keep at least 2 of Bruno, Mainoo and Ugarte.
2-3 CM
1 AM backup (maybe to Mbeumo)