Diallo is coming in January, so let's see what he's all about. I've watched quite a bit of Atalanta and have never seen this lad play, so he's a complete mystery to me. I think based on that we can decide on whether we need to invest in a RW to rotate with Greenwood or not - although I think we might have to wait till next summer to address it if we're looking for a star.
How to Fix Our Heavy Left Wing
- Thread starter Borys
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I completely forgot about this guy, he was supposed to be our next big thing : Dan James.
He was the one to carry the cross on the right side, no? If he doesn't improve then surely we need to buy someone or Diallo needs to come in and do a job....or its back to square one, we struggle against the low block, right side is light, sun rise on the west.
He was the one to carry the cross on the right side, no? If he doesn't improve then surely we need to buy someone or Diallo needs to come in and do a job....or its back to square one, we struggle against the low block, right side is light, sun rise on the west.
Why must we presume that it's a problem that needs solving by doing a complete U-turn in tactics? We're not doing anything uncommon either.
It's natural to overload one side of the pitch. Firstly, we're a side that struggles to generate pockets of space with off the ball movement and, furthermore, one that thrives in open spaces. The manager tries to find the extra pass by "forcing" a numerical advantage 4v3 on the left. When we can't find the killer pass, we switch the ball to the right where there should be (and there are) plenty of opportunities to go 1v1/2v2 or find the killer cross from the right half-space toward the back-post (Rashford has scored a few this way).
Secondly, if we are in favour of letting players "express" themselves on the pitch (a stick that was used to beat all three previous managers with), again it makes sense to overload the left flank. Both our main attacking outlets (Rashford and Martial) like to receive the ball on the left half-space and cut inside to shoot/look for quick one-two. This is the most natural way for them to score/create It's literally the only thing Martial cares for in the majority of the games. Rash has been a bit "tormented" tactically with his utilization nearer the sideline and a tad deeper and he has struggled considerably. And since neither of them is the Hazard type who will get on the ball, draw defenders and, subsequently, free up pockets of space for the others, we have to use Shaw, Bruno and Pogba (or Matic/Fred) to create a numerical advantage.
Further on, the problem on the right isn't primarily that the RW tucks in. He should in order to occupy the defensive line and create a pocket of space for the midfielder to move up from the second line of attack and for the FB to go 1v1. That's where the 50 million on AWB don't make much sense since we find ourselves in the same conundrum we were when Valencia was playing.
The problem is not overloading the side. The problem is moving the freaking ball with purpose and pace. United, when the spaces aren't there to be exploited, play football in slow motion. Every single pass is telegraphed to the defenders. Maureen's Inter were overloading the left side too, but they were finding their way into the box easily. And when they didn't, there was Maicon tearing opponents a new one on the right. And he wasn't a RW as far as i can remember...
How to solve it? Work on it every day at Carrington. That's why managers are being paid the big bucks, to improve players and make them look more than the sum of their parts. Not to play monopoly. That is, of course, if we have decided that Martial and Rashford will be leading the line for us for the next decade. Because if you want a more balanced side positionally and one that can do more things on the pitch, that's where you should start. There and in the midfield where the runners and the grafters, alongside the ones who can produce only Hollywood moments, have to be replaced with players who can exchange more than three passes, keep the ball and, most importantly, set the tempo and control the rhythm.
It makes you scratch your head, doesn't it? Ask any football fan above the age of 15 and they will tell you that the mirror of a team's capabilities is its midfield. I'm sure 90% if the Caf would agree with that. And yet, here we are talking about splashing 120 million on the RW that will change our fortunes, talking about the process of the rebuild when we still play Mourinho's midfield... who was also overloading the left side. That's also where we should look to improve, especially when our attacking options vanish into nothingness in tight spaces and far away from the box.
It's natural to overload one side of the pitch. Firstly, we're a side that struggles to generate pockets of space with off the ball movement and, furthermore, one that thrives in open spaces. The manager tries to find the extra pass by "forcing" a numerical advantage 4v3 on the left. When we can't find the killer pass, we switch the ball to the right where there should be (and there are) plenty of opportunities to go 1v1/2v2 or find the killer cross from the right half-space toward the back-post (Rashford has scored a few this way).
Secondly, if we are in favour of letting players "express" themselves on the pitch (a stick that was used to beat all three previous managers with), again it makes sense to overload the left flank. Both our main attacking outlets (Rashford and Martial) like to receive the ball on the left half-space and cut inside to shoot/look for quick one-two. This is the most natural way for them to score/create It's literally the only thing Martial cares for in the majority of the games. Rash has been a bit "tormented" tactically with his utilization nearer the sideline and a tad deeper and he has struggled considerably. And since neither of them is the Hazard type who will get on the ball, draw defenders and, subsequently, free up pockets of space for the others, we have to use Shaw, Bruno and Pogba (or Matic/Fred) to create a numerical advantage.
Further on, the problem on the right isn't primarily that the RW tucks in. He should in order to occupy the defensive line and create a pocket of space for the midfielder to move up from the second line of attack and for the FB to go 1v1. That's where the 50 million on AWB don't make much sense since we find ourselves in the same conundrum we were when Valencia was playing.
The problem is not overloading the side. The problem is moving the freaking ball with purpose and pace. United, when the spaces aren't there to be exploited, play football in slow motion. Every single pass is telegraphed to the defenders. Maureen's Inter were overloading the left side too, but they were finding their way into the box easily. And when they didn't, there was Maicon tearing opponents a new one on the right. And he wasn't a RW as far as i can remember...
How to solve it? Work on it every day at Carrington. That's why managers are being paid the big bucks, to improve players and make them look more than the sum of their parts. Not to play monopoly. That is, of course, if we have decided that Martial and Rashford will be leading the line for us for the next decade. Because if you want a more balanced side positionally and one that can do more things on the pitch, that's where you should start. There and in the midfield where the runners and the grafters, alongside the ones who can produce only Hollywood moments, have to be replaced with players who can exchange more than three passes, keep the ball and, most importantly, set the tempo and control the rhythm.
It makes you scratch your head, doesn't it? Ask any football fan above the age of 15 and they will tell you that the mirror of a team's capabilities is its midfield. I'm sure 90% if the Caf would agree with that. And yet, here we are talking about splashing 120 million on the RW that will change our fortunes, talking about the process of the rebuild when we still play Mourinho's midfield... who was also overloading the left side. That's also where we should look to improve, especially when our attacking options vanish into nothingness in tight spaces and far away from the box.
Last edited:
It's the easiest solution.
Buy one player that's better than our current options. You can overcomplicate the thing we much as you want with an abundance of tom series data and Python libraries.
But scouting for a player with good metrics, pace & skill and then signing them is not difficult. United just make it difficult.
The next best option is just to okay Martial at RW and Rashford at LW, getting both to cut inside on their best feet and our FBs overlapping.
I think it’s a sizeable issue, maybe our single biggest issue. We are crying out for the same quality on the right as we can put out on the left. A proper left footed right winger (looking at you Diallo) would work wonders in this team. For now Greenwood is the most balanced player we have in that position but his issue is he tends to go missing for large portions of the game currently.
Really? I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to compare heatmaps.
This is what it should be like, but it's not happening. Wan Bissaka is not providing that for two reasons, 1) he's not good on the ball (although his passing and crossing isn't that bad, it's just not natural for him to attack) and 2) when AWB finds himself high up the pitch with a chance to cross, he hesitates because he knows if he loses the ball Mata will not cover his ass. The second one is actually more of the problem. Look how many shit crosses Liverpool tries from the wings, they just don't care about losing the ball like we do.
And we're not creating a numerical advantage because since there is no threat from the right, defenders and midfielders just shift to the left. Take a look how heatmap looks - our front 4 vs WBA 3 defenders and one midfielder - they still have 1 CB and 2 MF to cover outside of that graph.
Agree with the AWB bit, but that connects to the second bolded bit - I'll reverse your argument and make a point that Inter could overload the left side BECAUSE they had Maicon on the right.
The rest of the post is just lazy complaining about midfield so I'm not getting into that discussion. It's been proven time and time again the midfield is not the problem, unless you think Bruno is not doing enough on the right hand side.
The opening sentence wasn't directed at you but to all the people who seem to believe that we're constantly one or two players away from solving all our problems. If the tone come out a bit aggressively, you have my apologies.
We overload the left with a diamond-shape formation and with constant interchanging of positions between players with the purpose of getting Martial/Rashford in a position where they can get on the ball with enough time and space to run at a defender or one of Shaw/Pogba in a position where they can create. We play for the numerical advantage and when the opposition commits numbers, we look for the switch. It doesn't work because we move the ball at a snail's pace. One more reason it doesn't work is because the midfielders (except Pogba) aren't good with the ball and that the attackers are very limited, not in skill, but in thinking and positioning.
The problem would have been on the right if AWB wasn't getting on the ball in interesting positions and situations. He does. The problem in our set-up is that we switch the ball to him far too often and far too easily. We don't have patience in our ball movement and when the very few times we do good things happen there with Shaw overlapping and Bruno working well in the spaces between the lines. That's where we need to improve now that there's little to no chance of finding the perfect player in the market until the summer.
With your last sentence i completely and utterly disagree. We have a midfield that can't force our tempo on the opponents, doesn't offer much in the attacking third (when a trident that consists of Rash-Tony-Greenwood demands of them to do so) and they struggle to keep the ball moving (and thus the defence constantly moving and on their toes). Furthermore, we have ended up with two midfield partnerships, Matic-Pogba and Fred-McT, that offer completely different things on the pitch. The former is better with the ball while the latter is better at covering space and pressing. It's no surprise that the energetic duo of Fred and McT works a treat against opponents who come at us and leave spaces in behind but when Lampard comes to OT to play for the draw they look utter rubbish. It's also no surprise that with Matic and Pogba our passing games becomes a bit smoother and we're able to move more players further up the pitch in dangerous positions (you know, like after the lockdown) but we also become quite vulnerable to counter-attacks. And the most worrisome part of it is that, although Solskjaer McT/Fred is closer to what Solskajer wants to do here, his only two fantastic spells where with Matic and Pogba playing like a world beater. But i agree, this is a question for another thread and i certainly don't want to derail yours.
Again, apologies if you believed that i had any intention to offend you. I assure you it was not the case.
I've noticed it a few times recently with Ole, but thought it was a great idea by SAF to regulary switch the wingers positions.
For what it's worth I think Martial is much more useful to us on the left cutting in and taking on players.I don't see much to Rashford's game to suggest that he's ever going to be a top quality option on the left for us unfortunately. He's only a good option on the left when we're counter attacking and he's got plenty of space to make a direct run into.
For what it's worth I think Martial is much more useful to us on the left cutting in and taking on players.I don't see much to Rashford's game to suggest that he's ever going to be a top quality option on the left for us unfortunately. He's only a good option on the left when we're counter attacking and he's got plenty of space to make a direct run into.
No offense taken, actually I think I expressed myself wrong. I just wanted to ask for some other examples of "lopsided" teams, so that I can dig into that. So please let me know.
I get that tactic, play one-twos in triangles of forward-midfielder-fullback and when opposition commits, switch to the other side. In my opinion it doesn't work for us because we're having zero threat down the right. Opposition puts people on left side and that's it, easy for them. If you see Liverpool for example, they stretch the defence formation from left to right, creating so much space for attackers in the middle. We're not doing that because all action is coming from the left. This is single biggest issue for us IMO.
Like I said in previous post, AWB finds himself in good positions but never takes risks, which is understandable because there is nobody to cover for him on the right wing. Mata is a serious problem right now, people need to see this.
On this paragraph, I actually think we move the ball better with Fred & McTominay (or even Fred & Matic) than Pogba & Matic- those two are just too slow. I will be trying to check that with the data in coming days.
The golden spell which we played after lockdown we had similar number of total shots and and shots on target like the WBA game, it's just 1) the chances were better because teams were coming to us and left a lot of space behind and 2) it happened our strikers had 50% conversion rate from shots on target. Yes we did play better, but also we were more adventurous going forward. Currently Ole is in the "play safe mode", probably would've been a different story if we didn't concede 11 goals in first 3 games.
Ferguson was one of the first managers to experiment with wrong-sided wingers on the island. The great man was way ahead of his time as far as English football is concerned. You would see plenty of that when both Sharpe and Giggs were at the top of their game. A couple of years later, Beckham broke into the first team and we would see even more experimentation with the positions of the wingers. But one of the things that made Ferguson the greatest manager of all time is the fact that he never "forced" anything to happen. He was always the genius that remained on top of his game by the grace of keeping things simple.
Ferguson wanted his creativity to come from the wide areas, so he played with players whose natural role was to hug the sidelines. Whether it was by cutting inside or beating a defender down the line and crossing the ball, the name of the game was always the same: Use the wide areas to create chances. The options of the opponent determined who would be used and where. And the purpose of the build-up was to generate space for these wide players and give them time on the ball to create. With Keane/Ince he had two midfielders who could break through the lines, unsettle the defence, force it to converge and open up space out wide. With Carrick/Scholes-Giggs, it was the early long diagonal to wingers who had attempted early runs. Even when we had an immobile midfield (in the sense of providing attacking outlets) with Carick-Scholes-Cleverley-Giggs, we would use the wingers to stretch the field and then Rafael/Evra would have productive seasons playing not on the overlap but mostly on the underlap.
I don't think you can get this from Martial and Rashford because they're primarily attacking players and not creators. And it's a better tactic for them to start from central positions and then drift out wide than to have them start a move far away from goal. You may thing i'm splitting hairs here but it makes quite a difference when you want to turn around with the ball and you have a hesitating CB instead of a FB in his natural space to worry about you and when you run at full pace against a back-peddling CB instead again of a FB who is better equipped to deal with this type of situations. Plus it would force Rash and Tony into a creator's role which doesn't suit them and even when they do have good games who's in the box to bear the fruits of the effort?
@Borys
Cheers. After your response, i read my post again and i was afraid i might have been a bit aggressive. Glad this wasn't the case.
Asymmetrical systems are very common, imho. For instance, Pep, despite what people think, used to do it a lot with Iniesta on the left and Messi as a false-9 and with Eto'o wreaking havoc on the opposite side. And he had such a plethora of options that allowed him to use both sides for overloads, de[ending on the opponent. A couple of quick pictures i found on the internet:
Mourinho loves to do it too.
I don't want us to go around in circles on the RW issue. Of course, having someone like Alves instead of AWB would have helped. That much we agree. But given that defences work in unison, i don't believe it's the lack of threat that our opponents feel when AWB has the ball on the right that's doing (most of the) damage. It's the lack of movement and that lack of conviction in tight spaces on the left. If you allow the opposition to dig a trench and defend in it and , you will never break through them. You have to make them commit, draw them in, fool them and give them a dilemma: "If i stick with my man, i'll leave a whole behind. But why should i give a feck when i know that Matic, Fred or Shaw will not move there/will not pass the ball in time for anything to happen and i also know that the forward (behind me) won't bother to take advantage either". That's what i mean.
Better options open up more possibilities. If that's your point, i wholeheartedly agree. But in this system, in these tactics, i feel that a new RW will only take us that far. There are just a few voices on here who claim that, despite the egregious price-tag, Grealish (who operates predominantly on the left side) would be more useful to our cause than Sancho and i agree with them in the sense that he would sweeten up our passing game in congested areas, he would allow Bruno to play closer to the box and to interact with the forwards in much more dangerous areas and he would be a nuisance for any defence with his constant movement.
You can oversimplify any problem with "lets buy better players" argument.
You said it's easiest solution. Do you think we can get somebody in the winter? Who? If not, then summer maybe? And what happens until summer?
It's like running on one flat tire, waiting for Goodyear to open their shop in a few weeks. And not even knowing if the tire you're looking for will be available and if you could afford it.
You're suggesting that simply changing the flat tire is simpler than buying one. That's fine, but it assumes two things: that the person knows how to change a flat tire, and that the person has a spare.
I would argue that we have neither the knowledge or the spare.
How are our tire changing skills? If we had the knowledge how to change our system or improve our RW candidates enough to find one to fit the position, then surely we would have done so by now. We have shifted from the old-school 4-3-2-1 (yawn) to the even more outdated diamond... and back again. Sweet.
Maybe we could get someone else to change the spare for us? Maybe not, because our options are Dan James (who beat a man for the first time last night, bless him), Greenwood (who is very much a forward being stuck out wide) and Mata (and we already know what we think of that).
In theory, I agree with you that a club should first exhaust all of our options before looking to buy. No argument. But those options have to be of enough quality to achieve your targets, and our target, in the slightly longer term, is to push the top 2.
In the absence of tires or mechanics - and given that United do have a few pennies lying around - I stand by my reasoning that it's simply easier to wait until Jan/summer and walk into a garage with our wallet out.
Look at it from the bright side, it was much worse with Sanchez and Pogba playing, together with Martial/Rashford. Pity nobody did any heat map back then.
Rashford and DVB operating more down the right will help - even if it is only a short term solution it will do for now if both play like they did last night.