Exactly. People dont care if the rule is whole body, big toe, half an arm or whatever. It's the tiny thresholds that are being used that annoy fans. If we change it to Souness's method, people will still argue if its 3mm the wrong way or not. They need to increase the thresholds to factor in inaccuracies in the technology.
How to fix VAR “offsides”?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
That adds another later of complexity in terms of judging where players are.
For close offsides referees should be told to to and look at the pitch side monitor. They can be given the freeze frame with the lines drawn and then make a decision based on the image. If it is not clear then the onfield decision is used.
As a side note, I 'm sure we didn't have this problem during the world cup? Can't remember exactly what was used then but can't remember any controversy over goals being disallowed for a tight offside.
There's is nothing wrong with the technology, it's just the way that it is implemented in the premier league which isn't right.
As a side note, I 'm sure we didn't have this problem during the world cup? Can't remember exactly what was used then but can't remember any controversy over goals being disallowed for a tight offside.
There's is nothing wrong with the technology, it's just the way that it is implemented in the premier league which isn't right.
But that level of complexity is already there.
I actually think it would change the entire perception of such decisions. A centimeter offside would still be a centimeter offside, but it would be perceived as the attacker being offside with his entire body, thus making it far easier to accept. It changes the advantage from the defender to the attacker, which is what most people want to see.
I would personally limit it to just the feet, so look at the feet closest to goal of attacker and defender and continue play if there's still an overlap. That eliminates all shoulder/armpit talk as well.
Most of the changes being put forward here are impossible for any lino to cope with probably including daylight, let alone body parts, whether it's only a bit offside and so on.
It’s essentially comparing the check for any amount of space between attacking player and last defender vs that same space + determining where the attacking player is relative to the 18/6 yard box.
Sounds naive, but could a review system like in cricket work? Maybe a maximum of one review per team each game. Let the linesmen do the job like they have done for decades, and each team can use their review if they think there was a clear and obvious offside which should be the point of the whole thing. The offside rule had worked for years without officials cross-checking every goal to try and spot offside toes and armpits. The team get to retain their review if they successfully overturn a decision. Just make it a normal part of the game.
I just think Var is spending too much time on the limelight and should be used sparingly.
I just think Var is spending too much time on the limelight and should be used sparingly.
My issue is with the toe/armpit decisions, I don’t think it was brought in for this level of scrutiny but for clear and obvious errors in offside both ways.
I also think the Pukki goal for instance, no Spurs fan before VAR would have an issue with this goal, no one is screaming from the stands “His armpit is 2mm offside you moron!”.
It also becomes a disadvantage for the attacking player at this point, how can you control to the millimetre your run? Especially someone like Pukki who isn’t exactly rapid.
I also think the Pukki goal for instance, no Spurs fan before VAR would have an issue with this goal, no one is screaming from the stands “His armpit is 2mm offside you moron!”.
It also becomes a disadvantage for the attacking player at this point, how can you control to the millimetre your run? Especially someone like Pukki who isn’t exactly rapid.
It is easy. I've said this before but the technology is there. They simulate football in computer games already and have "referees" in there making correct decisions.
1. Put chips in their shoes and the ball.
2. Have a monitor set up with a program that analyse the game in real time. Might look a bit like FM, only in real time.
3. Have it analyse everything. For offsides, it is based on the information of player positions, position of the ball with definite real time accuracy. Ref will get a signal on his watch if it is offside. Simple as that.
You can have a man on the monitor too, plus an additional man watching the game and replay footage. That is 3 levels of analysis to assure the correct decision, and it would be done in real time, with a 10 second delay max only if some unexpected thing happened.
I'm not a programmer but the idea is pretty straight forward.
1. Put chips in their shoes and the ball.
2. Have a monitor set up with a program that analyse the game in real time. Might look a bit like FM, only in real time.
3. Have it analyse everything. For offsides, it is based on the information of player positions, position of the ball with definite real time accuracy. Ref will get a signal on his watch if it is offside. Simple as that.
You can have a man on the monitor too, plus an additional man watching the game and replay footage. That is 3 levels of analysis to assure the correct decision, and it would be done in real time, with a 10 second delay max only if some unexpected thing happened.
I'm not a programmer but the idea is pretty straight forward.
Must say, I'm surprised at all the outrage over offside decisions.
I get why people don't like tight calls but tight calls have always existed. As is they're being made more accurately than they ever have been before, in a way that is fair and consistent.
Most of the solutions I've seen to now solve the "tight call" problem either just move where the offside line is, effect bigger changes on the game in terms of where advantage lies or cause other problems that fans will inevitably find just as vexing.
I would have thought that the subjective decisions are the big problem with VAR, not offsides which are fairly standardised.
I get why people don't like tight calls but tight calls have always existed. As is they're being made more accurately than they ever have been before, in a way that is fair and consistent.
Most of the solutions I've seen to now solve the "tight call" problem either just move where the offside line is, effect bigger changes on the game in terms of where advantage lies or cause other problems that fans will inevitably find just as vexing.
I would have thought that the subjective decisions are the big problem with VAR, not offsides which are fairly standardised.
Sourness reckons if any part of your body is ONSIDE, it should count
We just went from complaining about bad application of a rule to complaining about correct application of a rule we don't like
Souness also said he never saw any racism in the game during the 70s and 80s
They should just use the challenge system like the NFL. Go with the refs decision on calls and if a coach wants to challenge the decision then it would go to VAR. If that call doesn’t get changed and the coach loses the challenge then he loses a sub
How is anybody on the halfway line going to know if a tight call is correct or not?
Well in the NFL the coaches never throw their challenge flag until they see the giant screen up above so I suppose every place has a big giant screen or needs to get one.
Personally I thought VAR was a terrible idea and it’s coming to fruition.
Daylight rule, that simple. Yes it makes defending harder but we are all wanting a more entertaining game with more goals anyway. The rule as it is now is a disaster.
Your daylight rule is no different. Just 500 times more difficult for the actual human lino.
Yeah but daylight rule gives an advantage to attackers. You still have frames to deal with but it cuts out the oh the centre of his armpit was offside, when in reality they will never be accurate enough to know exactly where the exact centre of someones armpit is. Its simply, the goal is score, you run the lines, no daylight between player lines, goal counts. The line should be from the toe of the part of the booth closest to where daylight would be eg.. the heel of the attackers back foot and the part of the boot closest to the defenders goal. Hell you could even run it on the deciding frame where its determined the ball is contacted and the frame before. If both are onside its onside, if one is offside its offside. It would have to be checked out two shots because of the inaccuracy of the technology.
Don’t understand why they haven’t just stuck with the original brief of “clear & obvious”. When it’s milimetres, aside from the fact it is under a conceivable margin of error, it’s inconceivable the linesman could have confidently made the call.
None of these recent offside calls have been “clear and obvious” so why have VAR even overturned them in the first place?
None of these recent offside calls have been “clear and obvious” so why have VAR even overturned them in the first place?
Making it one body part that applies would make it simpler, quicker and less controversional. Maybe the head.
It's just a back up to the linesman doing the job as best they can. They aren't judging armpits etc every time they put the flag up.
It's just a back up to the linesman doing the job as best they can. They aren't judging armpits etc every time they put the flag up.
It is a good question. Their switching of the approach on how to apply VAR is one of the things that really makes you question the integrity of the league itself. You'd figure the investing public understands that VAR isn't a problem in it self but the way they apply it is what confuses people in a major way. One week it's one rule, the next week it's a different set of rules.
Install some sort of gps microchip into the the boots of every player and the ball so the exact time of contact from the kick can be identified and also the position of the feet can be accurately identified.
It would be radical and would completely shit on the idea that football should be played the same at all levels, whether its sunday league or the highest level.
I do like the idea of the daylight rule though in practical terms.
It would be radical and would completely shit on the idea that football should be played the same at all levels, whether its sunday league or the highest level.
I do like the idea of the daylight rule though in practical terms.
Is that even a thing? Not sure what that means. I do agree with your first point. It is relatively simple answer to a very uncomplicated question. Video assisting for offsides shouldn't be a thing, there should be more accurate technology in use for a rule that is not even dependant on human subjectivity. All you need for this rule is the correct decision applied consistently and there can and will be no complaints.
I can’t believe how many people want to change the rules of football just to accommodate the mess that var is
And if I have to read just one more time “there’s nothing wrong with the tech, it’s the way it’s used”. This gets spouted about more than “take back control”, it’s just a sound bite and totally not true.
this VAR nonsense is clearly not upto the job, the tech is not there and is a million miles away from goal line technology
this VAR nonsense is clearly not upto the job, the tech is not there and is a million miles away from goal line technology
Simple answer. Stop being complete fecking cnuts.
And make it the referee's interpretation not some faceless bellend in the crowd with a set of e-Crayons and a My First Video Editing book.
And make it the referee's interpretation not some faceless bellend in the crowd with a set of e-Crayons and a My First Video Editing book.
So then explain what is wrong with the technology? Was the technology to blame when a man in an office could plainly and clearly see a Palace player(I think) haul down Martial and decided to tell the ref he hadn't made a mistake? No, the replay was fine, the tech was fine, the idiot who deemed that not a foul was to blame.
When two of the exact same hand balls are shown to the VAR using the technology and the man in the office calls one a pen while another man in the same office a week later says "not a pen". Again not the fault of the technology but the person looking at it.
my view is that it’s killing the emotion and fun of the game and actually annoys me. Yeah there used to be tight calls, you’d look at the lino as soon as the ball hit the net, players did the same, flag down, celebration on.
now everyone celebrates, no flag, teams can celebrate for a few mins, set up for kick off and the the goal is disallowed. It’s a shambles. And the best thing of all, even once the goal has been chalked off using this ‘amazing totally accurate’ technology, the decision seems wrong
I’m honestly amazed at it. in the last 2 days of football the amount of decisions that seem to be wrong is staggering. Yet people say this all helps the fairness of the game and that’s why it’s brought in!! I just give up with it.
Which is great for the big boys and all the money, crap for grass roots linos who find it harder using this imaginary daylight rule. So we have different rules for different leagues now? Actually changing the rules of football in certain leagues to accommodate var? And why was var brought in? For fairness because there’s sooooo much money in the sport now? It’s all a joke
It does put a light on all the decisions that do go wrong in the PL, even for smaller teams that before didn't get the coverage they get now. If anything it highlights the state of the refs, from top to bottom when even with video replay of an incident they mostly manage to get it wrong.my view is that it’s killing the emotion and fun of the game and actually annoys me. Yeah there used to be tight calls, you’d look at the lino as soon as the ball hit the net, players did the same, flag down, celebration on.
now everyone celebrates, no flag, teams can celebrate for a few mins, set up for kick off and the the goal is disallowed. It’s a shambles. And the best thing of all, even once the goal has been chalked off using this ‘amazing totally accurate’ technology, the decision seems wrong
I’m honestly amazed at it. in the last 2 days of football the amount of decisions that seem to be wrong is staggering. Yet people say this all helps the fairness of the game and that’s why it’s brought in!! I just give up with it.
It’s all in this thread, frame rates, angles, speed. No where near accurate enough.
a video replay with ms paint lines, yeah ok
Is the correct answer.
Surely you have a line going down the middle of each player, showing their centre of gravity. There has to be some algorithm around that can equate that. Then it’s not a case of a random body part being ahead of the last defender.
If you C.O.G is beyond that of the last defender, disallow the goal.
If you C.O.G is beyond that of the last defender, disallow the goal.
Lets not pretend its a video replay with ms paint lines, that's a crazy over reaction. Angles are spot on. Frame rate is the only issue and that only effects offside.
Or just the feet. It is football, so even if a goal is scored with the head any advantage gained comes first from the feet, on account that every player has to run to get anywhere. So if a players toe is offside, then it is offside. If it isn't it isn't. Just get the chip the shoes and its done. No more discussions, no more ruining the game.
I’m not pretending anything. Just saying the tech is clearly not there or accurate enough so I don’t know why people repeat that it is.
How does this work in the lower leagues? Or do we only change the offside rule for VAR leagues?
Its no harder for lino's. They are just checking from different points. Callling offside with the human eye is next to impossible anyway because they can never be sure of the point of contact. Its impossible to see two things 20 yards apart at once. Lino's do a great job given the difficulty of their job and should be commended, but top level football and the huge prizes need decisions to be as important as possible. The daylight rule is better for football because it suits attacking and entertaining football. Its not an easier to identify, just better for the game than the farce we have now.