How to get better at breaking down deep sides

[kundalini]

Copy what City do in the final third. It relies heavily upon players knowing in advance how the move is likely to develop, so they can be in the right position when the ball arrives.

So a player in a fairly central zone about 10 yards from the opposition penalty area, ideally Pogba, but possibly Lingard or Fred, may even Pereira, receives the ball, then a wide player or full-back, or even another central midfielder, makes a run between the opposing full-back and central defender, the ball is played over the top, into the small space behind the defence, the player who receives the ball, does a first time cross across the face of the goal, which is finished by either the striker or the winger from the other side. For United, one of the main problems this season has been that both Rashford, and to a lesser extent, Martial, have been far too slow to react to developing situations so have either arrived too late or failed to react at all.

One approach United have used with some success is to pass the ball to Martial positioned near the edge of the box, with a runner, which could be the player who made the initial pass or another player, looking to receive a first time pass from Martial that allows him to break into the box. This tactic won us both the penalty awarded for a foul on Pogba against Wolves (pen was saved) and the penalty awarded for a foul on McTominay in the Palace match (Rashford's pen hit the post). In the Norwich game, there appeared to be a good understanding between Martial and Rashford, which enabled them to create good chances for each other.

Even on a more basic level, simply having a player positioned in front of the near post whenever Dan James is likely to cross the ball, makes the difference between a defender clearing the danger and Lingard creating the chance for Greenwood to take a shot that required a decent save from the Spurs keeper; even that relied on Spurs' near post defender missing the ball.

Another situation that could work for us is to try to repeat the goal that Greenwood scored against Sheff United from Rashford's pass. De Bruyne gets lots of assists for similar passes. Play the ball between the keeper and the opposing defence and get our attackers to try to score from close range. Wan-Bissaka has tried this numerous times but has yet to find a precise enough cross.

Really our biggest issue is getting Rashford and Martial, also whoever is playing no 10, to recognise a particular situation almost immediately, then sprint into the appropriate zone, to get on the end of the cross or pass. For some reason, it just doesn't seem to have registered in their brains at the moment. Dan James keeps firing crosses across the face of the goal with no United player making a serious effort to get there.

Given that Solskjaer has mentioned the issue of scoring from close range, on numerous occasions this season, I imagine they are working on it in training but for whatever reason, they are struggling to produce it during matches.

I think bringing in 3 new players, plus Martial being used centrally, McTominay and Pereira being relatively inexperienced, has meant that in most areas of the pitch, we are still building an understanding between the players. Moves break down because Dan James plays the ball to Mata, hoping for a one-two in order to get behind the opposing defence, only for Mata to have wandered off, so an opposing player receives the ball instead. This happened at least twice in the Newcastle away game.

Hopefully in the 2nd half of the season, we will see more instances of United players correctly anticipating what is about to happen, and far fewer misunderstandings.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Better players in mid. We don't have the creativity from the full backs like Liverpool so the mid is very important. I have some hopes that a mid of McTom, Fred and Pogba could do the trick but come summer, we need to add better creative players in mid and nr. 10. Tactics don't matter as much here IMO it's more about the moments of magic from the players.

 

[SteveW]

Obviously getting a proper creative midfielder is a must.

But we've actually scored plenty of goals over the last 7/8 games. So maybe Ole and the lads are making progress on this. I'm hearing much less of the "where's our patterns of play?" moaning over the last 6 weeks of so.

 

[Dr Fink]

This one is easy: have a decent creative player on the pitch (Pogba - the only one we have) and ensure there's plenty of movement from our front three. The latter has been lacking as has the former.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Risk taking: Throwing an extra man or two in the box will leave us susceptible to counters but it is something we should push towards. Especially when we're a goal up, the team sort of loses its will to grab another goal and has a tendency to sit back way too deep (Ole and Carrick desperately flailing their arms in the final few minutes against Spurs for the backline to push further forward )

Starting fast: Rashford's goal against Spurs was our first goal in the first 15 mins of a match this season. Not good enough I would say.

Being Clinical: Need to improve our chance conversion rate and even half chances need to be taken

Options from the Bench: I was a big fan of the Lukaku and Sanchez coming off the bench arrangement during Ole's initial games. 20 mins from a fresh, fast attacker can give a lot of impetus especially against a team which has been defending in a low block.

Creative Midfielders: Clearly need at least a couple more. Matic can also no longer be counted as a squad player for us leaving us desperately short in numbers.

 

[tenpoless]

Shot from distance

 

[roonster09]

Starting fast: Rashford's goal against Spurs was our first goal in the first 15 mins of a match this season. Not good enough I would say.

James vs Southampton
Rashford vs Leicester
Lingard vs Astana

all were scored within 15 mins of the game, we scored few in 16-18 mins too.

Agree with the other points, we need to take more risks and commit more players to the box.

 

[SteveW]

Someone gets it?

You have the gall to question someone else for their knowledge of football when you have just suggested that the team with the best points tally in the history of the premier league are just 'simply' made?

The idea that if you coach Fred, Perreira, Lindelof, Mata and Young we'll suddenly be as good as City's team? It's just 'simple'. No wonder some of you want Ole out so badly if you think that coaching a team to play as well as City is 'simple'. It's just telling your players to get into the box.

fecking hell. Imagine being this tone deaf on football and then acting like someone else gets it. It is very fecking hard to get players to follow a script as there are barely any moments in a football match that follow a fecking script. Obviously Ole is coaching our attacking players, hence us looking literally ten times better in attack this year than we did under Jose. I don't think for all the best coaching in the world we could get a frontline that has had Mata/Perreria/Greenwood/Fred/Lingard playing there in the last two premier league games matching the output of Augero/Sterling/Silva/Silva/Mahrez/De Bruyne and Jesus.

This is well put. I genuinely think a lot of the criticism has been really disingenuous. Certain people have mentally dismissed Ole as out of his depth and are now just completely focused on making the case against him until the he's gone. So context goes out the window. It's about pushing that narrative as effectively as possible. He can't coach players, tactically inept etc. When you give examples of this not actually being the case they never come back with a cogent argument. They just point at the league table.

But that's not really very fair is it? Anyone with common sense would understand that our squad isn't good enough right now to win consistently. We don't have a squad that can cope with injuries. As a result we have consistently had to rely on players that are nowhere near good enough. Players Ole is stuck with because previous managers signed them. Moyes, LVG and Mourinho made this mess by consistently signing the wrong players. As you correctly state, no amount of coaching will make the likes of Matic, Pereira, Mata and Young into good players.

If all that was required was coaching and not signings Pep an Klopp wouldn't have had to change most of their squads in their first couple of seasons at City and Liverpool. Klopp has sold 17 first team players since taking over and bought around 15. Ole has sold/loaned 7 players and bought in 3. THREE! And Klopp finished 8 in his first season.

The scapegoating is fecking ridiculous.

 

[Nickelodeon]

James vs Southampton
Rashford vs Leicester
Lingard vs Astana

all were scored within 15 mins of the game, we scored few in 16-18 mins too.

Agree with the other points, we need to take more risks and commit more players to the box.

I stand corrected. Then I think the stat was that we haven't conceded in the first 15 minutes (in the PL that is). Heard it during the Sheffield United game.

In general though, our approach when we're 1-0 or 2-1 up has been our undoing. The team sort of gives up while attacking and defence becomes way too deep. That needs sorting out.

 

[TwoSheds]

Get a better coach /Thread.

Let's say Pep comes in, what will he get out of Mata, Pereira and Lingard that Ole can't?

 

[SteveW]

Let's say Pep comes in, what will he get out of Mata, Pereira and Lingard that Ole can't?

Nothing. Pep sold all the shit players and replaced them. When he got it wrong he even replaced his signings. Klopp sold 17 first teamers and bought 15 since he took over. Poch sold most of the Spurs squad within the first 2 seasons.

The idea that these genius managers are turning crap squads into great teams simply by coaching them is pure mythology designed to undermine Solskjaer. Nobody in the real world actually believes it.

Ole has signed 3 players so far.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Using the width, quick passing, overlapping with the full backs or third man runs through the centre with a midfielder. Patterns of play are very important in breaking down a tight defence. This is something we lack, but I think now with knowing our best 11 we can improve on that. Chemistry hasn't been there with switching players every game.

Having strikers that know how to attack the front post with clever movement (or striker movement in general)

Switching the ball quickly from side to side once the first avenue of attack has been cut off.

Positioning the midfield / attack in a high enough position to box the opponents in if they do win the ball back, force them to punt it so you can recycle possession.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

This one is easy: have a decent creative player on the pitch (Pogba - the only one we have) and ensure there's plenty of movement from our front three. The latter has been lacking as has the former.

Have we been more creative in recent months without pogba ? Is that due to other factors and other players finding form, which pogba can help kick on ?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

This thread is similar to another one which has some good suggestions-

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-to-beat-park-the-bus.451897/

Thanks missed that at the time...my thread is a shadow of this lovely thread

 

[Nickelodeon]

Have we been more creative in recent months without pogba ? Is that due to other factors and other players finding form, which pogba can help kick on ?

Our players which Pogba would most likely replace are Lingard / Pereira who have both scored 1 goal each this season (both with deflections ironically). Pogba might not be a great goal scorer but he is likely to score and create more than either of them.

So to answer your question, I believe that we have been more creative despite Lingard and Periera and, in theory at least, Pogba's return should improve our chance creation and conversion.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I think it's interesting very few suggestions of a new coach. Back in fergies day our style was heavily influenced by quiroz or phelan etc. I agree that we need to keep working on the playing staff side but is it fanciful to think if you just hire a new coach you get their qualities?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Our players which Pogba would most likely replace are Lingard / Pereira who have both scored 1 goal each this season (both with deflections ironically). Pogba might not be a great goal scorer but he is likely to score and create more than either of them.

So to answer your question, I believe that we have been more creative despite Lingard and Periera and, in theory at least, Pogba's return should improve our chance creation and conversion.

Personally don't see evidence that ole is waiting to replace our 10 with pogba... but think he should certainly try it and I guess he will if Fred and mctom continue current form.

 

[Bwuk]

We need more from our full backs in terms of stretching the opposition, and lack a creative passer from deep midfield.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I have been thinking a lot about this and I am at a loss. We lack a lack so many aspects that are needed to break down teams.
1. Attacking LB/RB - Nada and their is no solution to this because we have put all our hopes on players that cant attack. The only option is Dalot and Brandon. Maybe with lower sides this may be an option.
2) LW/RW - You need players that can take on their LB/RB in tight spaces and then cross the ball. All our players need space to run into and then they are not the best at crossing. A new RW should sort the ride side out at least but it needs to be the right player.
3) CF - We need someone who can hold up the ball and bring others into play. Someone who can fight against two hulking CB's and also head the ball. A classic number 9. Martial has done well in this position but he lacks a lot of attributes to be ideal. We need a Plan B. Haaland maybe? But he is young.
4) Midfield - We need one player that is a defensive enforcer but can also distribute the ball. Fernandinho/Kante being prime examples. Then two players that are more attacking. Can keep the ball pulling the defensive shape out of kilter then threading balls through gaps and can also drive into the box when needed and score. McTominay and Fred lack in all these attributes. They are a bit of a jack of all trades. Which is a bit of a quandary. Pogba can be the attacking player no doubt and Fred, McTominay and Pogba will work in a lot of games but their will be games with really stubborn defenses that its just not enough either attacking or defensively. Of course if we had attacking LB/RB and RW/LW then the perfect midfield (to break down defenses) is not needed - see Liverpool.
5) We need a plan B. Someone who can change the game when needed. This is why I didnt want Fellaini sold and if I remember correctly one of the reasons Lukaku was bought was to be this player. Im not saying they shouldnt have been sold. Thats an old debate. Point is we need these kind of players in certain games.
6) Experience - Yes all hail the young team and yes its awesome etc . But we really need some more experienced players. Not just experience. Leadership. These are the players that will dictate the game on the pitch. They will guide the youngsters. Tell them what to do when its going wrong and pick their heads up when its not going right. You can see the players head drop and they get frustrated.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Personally don't see evidence that ole is waiting to replace our 10 with pogba... but think he should certainly try it and I guess he will if Fred and mctom continue current form.

So if Pogba was fit in the previous game, where do you think he would've played?

 

[Bobcat]

Obviously getting a proper creative midfielder is a must.

But we've actually scored plenty of goals over the last 7/8 games. So maybe Ole and the lads are making progress on this. I'm hearing much less of the "where's our patterns of play?" moaning over the last 6 weeks of so.

This. And a big, strong striker that can create havoc in the box. Pogba back and Haaland in January and i think it will improve

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Let's say Pep comes in, what will he get out of Mata, Pereira and Lingard that Ole can't?

Why just name those 3 players...? He'd have the entire squad. Ole chooses to play the teams he fields - he isn't forced into it.

Are you genuinely suggesting that Guardiola wouldn't get more out of this entire squad than fecking Ole!?

 

[MikeKing]

Title sounds like a lifehack tutorial on youtube for students analysing books of philosophy.

On topic: We need players who can dominate their area, and win the ball back high up the field so we can sustain pressure without having to start over every time we lose the ball. We also need better coaching and couple of creative players but we can utilise our speed if we stay persistent. The most important thing the team has to learn is to be able to keep a high tempo of passing and moving even when the other team isn't doing it. It seems very hard to do for us, we always make a game harder for ourselves I feel and I'd like to know why that is.

 

[RedBanker]

To go through a low block the passing needs to be crisp and fast. Off the ball runners on either side or through the middle pulling multiple opponents away from the player in possession. Multiple dummy runs at the same time. That is the City model.

Given that the above is highly unlikely for us to achieve immediately. We have the option to sign a target man in Jan. One who can bring down the ball and shield it well. Especially when we have to resort to balls over the top bypassing the midfield block of our opponent. That I think is the more likely scenario.

 

[RUCK4444]

Movement off the ball, ours has been horrendous for many a year.

Crisp passing, quick tempo, but ultimately runners off the ball.
It’s the only way to drag players out of position and create space.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Title sounds like a lifehack tutorial on youtube for students analysing books of philosophy.

On topic: We need players who can dominate their area, and win the ball back high up the field so we can sustain pressure without having to start over every time we lose the ball. We also need better coaching and couple of creative players but we can utilise our speed if we stay persistent. The most important thing the team has to learn is to be able to keep a high tempo of passing and moving even when the other team isn't doing it. It seems very hard to do for us, we always make a game harder for ourselves I feel and I'd like to know why that is.

My thoughts exactly, and IMO the most important thing which has lead to our improvement in recent weeks. If we are able to sustain pressure without our strikers and AM's having to run back into our own half every turnover, it will be a big help.

Lindelof, the LB, and occasionally Maguire (due to his speed) really need improvement in this aspect.

 

[morbidsaint]

It'd be nice to ever see any of our forwards attack the front post on a cross. We seem to have started putting many more decent crosses in, but there's never anyone there to put them away.

This has pissed me off for a long time now. I can't remember the last time i saw this. Generally speaking we have been sending to few people up inside the box in these situations. Pogba loves to makes those runs, and he did that when Ole first came in. He was on fire. Can't remember seing Fred making those runs? Or even Pereira/Lingard. They are outside the 16-m area 90% of the time.

 

[andy dufresne]

The simple answer to the post and the question in general is to have gifted footballers in your team.It is pointless going on about formations and managers and to a certain but I concede lesser extent,coaching because it is the players and an individual players skill and ability or lack of it in many cases in a United shirt at the present time that enables a team to break down a packed or well organised defence.It is all well and good saying this and that but until Manchester United start to recruit footballers again who can what I call "see a pass" and especially from a midfield area.You look at all the best and most successful teams in history and they have always had one or two players of that type.We have none.I know people are going to say Paul Pogba to me and I accept that he is possibly the only player we have who is capable of doing this however his capable days in United's colours have been few and far between and I certainly do not think we can trust him,as has been proven already,over a lengthy period of time.Lets look at recruiting clever,classy,ball players and also important is a brave footballer who will try and try to unlock a defence and not get disheartened should he fail to do so on his first attempt.Two current players who spring to mind are Jack Grealish from Aston Villa who I rate very very highly and always have and perhaps James Maddison of Leicester City also.

 

[The_Midfielder]

Better players ..
Compare KDB, Mahrez,Bernardo Silva, Silva, Aguero,Jesus,Sane
vs
Martial, Rashford,James, Pogba, McT,Fred,Andreas,

 

[bondsname]

When breaking down a low block team, width is the most important thing. You need width so you can attack centrally, as the wide players will draw players out, leaving holes in their defence. Having wingers is not enough, you need full backs who are comfortable on the ball going forward.

Let's say on the right flank we have AWB, James, and Lingard dropping there as support. We now have three men attacking the right side of the pitch. The opposition has two options usually; settle with 2 men (usually a fullback and a winger) to defend that area, or throw in an extra man to even the odds.

In the former scenario, we have an advantage 3v2, we should easily be able to beat their defence and create space for a player to cross the ball. Problem is; no one in our team has the ability to cross the ball on a world class level on a regular basis. Another problem is that we lack movement in the box, so crossing is pointless.

Here city have Bernardo Silva, De Bruyne, Walker, David Silva, Sterling.
Liverpool have, Alexander Arnold, Henderson, Salah, Robertson and Mane.

You also need to be able to adapt, if the opposition throws in an extra player to defend that area, making it a 3v3, that means that somewhere in the defence is a gap, or a gap could be created with fake runs drawing players out of position, and quick one two passing. That's were creative midfielders are needed, and we only have Pogba that can pull that off.


We lack the quality to break down low block teams.

 

[croadyman]

We need more creativity in those games because when teams shut down Pogba it blunts Utd totally.

We could really do with signing that kind of player in January but all noises coming out suggest Utd are only looking at loan deals.

 

[RedIan]

The only way to break down defensive sides is better players than we currently have - intelligent and creative players required.... Cantona was the master at this.

 

[Florida Man]

Quick and concise passing with clever and dynamic movements is the best way. That is something that can exist in most tactical approaches too. I can see us making the attempts to pass quickly but we kind of suck at that for a professional club. I notice too often where players receive a pass and the ball bounces up as if they aren’t practicing their touch. Then you often see passes quite a bit off the mark and sometimes flat out off the mark. These are slowing down plays and preventing any killer ball through. I put this down more to poor coaching than poor players but it’s a combination of both.

 

[cyril C]

Tactic 1:
Fast and direct wingplay, getting behind their back line and crossing.

Tactic 2:
Give them false sense of security, let them have time on the ball and lure them up the park. Hit the switch and press them otherworldly to win the ball and hit them on the counter using the space behind, that you've afforded them deliberately.

(This is precisely why we fail against weaker side, who are always comfortable sitting deep. When they always keep 5 at the back, there is little space for counter.)

Tactic 3
Requires high skills in ball-retention and press resistance and very creative players to execute whatever they want of play. This requires a lot of movement from the forwards, wingers and fullbacks and doing lots of running in behind a la peak Barcelona.

(I think our MF pass the ball to the opposition more often to our own, say it all.)

Look, Ole has built this team as a counter-attack team, that's why he has no place for Lukaku. Counter-attack is effective against top clubs but useless against bottom clubs. Big Sam might have done a better job, as he would have added set-piece as our 2nd weapon, as most bottom clubs would have.

 

[Bastian]

This is a myth. We struggle against sides who attack and keep the ball in the final third. I keep seeing the narrative that we destroyed Spurs because we could sit back but we clearly didnt even do that. We pressed high and won the ball further up.
Nobody sits back against us anymore. Its why we score more but concede a lot more as well

We could play a slightly higher line with Kane up top for them, whereas against Bournemouth who were defensive they had two pacey strikers so a high line with a slow central defensive pairing wasn't as plausible. We also struggled with the pace of Wolves' counter attack and the pace of Mousset against Sheffield.

Plenty of teams sit against us.

 

[Isotope]

 

[Crashoutcassius]

So if Pogba was fit in the previous game, where do you think he would've played?

freds spot probably, on the evidence of the first games of the season. im saying this but i actually do think he will try that 3 man midfield, but pretending pogba is his type of 10 is crazy

 

[charlenefan]

Get a better coach /Thread.

No not /thread

No coach is going to be able to turn the likes of Mata (at his age), Lingard and Andreas into the creative fulcrums needed to consistently be able to break down the sides we struggle against. Mata 6 years ago sure with the right coaching could have taken himself to another level, Lingard has the movement but lacks the ability of an end product, Andreas just isn't good enough at anything

Better players are required over anything and if after that it's still no better then you address the coaching

 

[BazzaBear]

This has pissed me off for a long time now. I can't remember the last time i saw this. Generally speaking we have been sending to few people up inside the box in these situations. Pogba loves to makes those runs, and he did that when Ole first came in. He was on fire. Can't remember seing Fred making those runs? Or even Pereira/Lingard. They are outside the 16-m area 90% of the time.

Interesting one. Because for me it should be the striker or inside forward usually attacking the near post area. Ours tend to either go far post or just hang back.

But maybe if one or more of our midfielders were attacking the deeper box area that would encourage the forwards to be 4 or 5 yards further forward in those situations?

To be fair, it's early days building on the fact that we are creating chances from wide near the byline far more than previously.

 

[ReddBalls]

freds spot probably, on the evidence of the first games of the season. im saying this but i actually do think he will try that 3 man midfield, but pretending pogba is his type of 10 is crazy

First games with Ole as an interim says otherwise.