We've definitely gotten better with Bruno and Pogba in the team. I'd say there are two attackers in the team that low block is their weakness and that's Martial and James. Martial ability and style of play to drop deep and link up play is not needed when facing low block which is why he struggles abit. James is one dimensional that only shines when given space. Would like to see Ighalo and Greenwood in there against teams sitting back
How to get better at breaking down deep sides
- Thread starter Crashoutcassius
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Honestly you need good wingers, and good deliveries into the box, and a clinical #9
In big games you might only get one clear cut chance, currently if a chance were to fall to a player in the box (a forward) I would struggle to name a player I'd be confident in the ball landing at their feet.
Teams like Barca for example, you have Jordi Alba who has a great delivery, Madrid has Marcelo and you know with their width you are getting a good delivery each time, United doesn't have that.
With those teams too you have Benzema, Suarez who you are confident they will take their chances. Bayern have Lewandowski who again you know will finish.
United needs good fullbacks, a world class #9, Bruno and Pogba are both brilliant midfielders, but up top there's nothing really.
As much as I like Marcus, I don't see him being on the level of people like Lewandowski/Suarez in the longterm and naturally there'll be other players of that level in world football in the next few years.
In big games you might only get one clear cut chance, currently if a chance were to fall to a player in the box (a forward) I would struggle to name a player I'd be confident in the ball landing at their feet.
Teams like Barca for example, you have Jordi Alba who has a great delivery, Madrid has Marcelo and you know with their width you are getting a good delivery each time, United doesn't have that.
With those teams too you have Benzema, Suarez who you are confident they will take their chances. Bayern have Lewandowski who again you know will finish.
United needs good fullbacks, a world class #9, Bruno and Pogba are both brilliant midfielders, but up top there's nothing really.
As much as I like Marcus, I don't see him being on the level of people like Lewandowski/Suarez in the longterm and naturally there'll be other players of that level in world football in the next few years.
Precision and absolute control of the ball. These thins allow the full backs to push up. It was good to see when Pogba came on Maguire and Lindelöf were right up in Spurs’ half and the full backs were on the wings. Suddenly there was space in inside channels to cut in, or half turn, bit of movement from Rashford or Martial, fear of a shit from distance causing commitment doubts for the other team. Greenwood as an inverted winger gave AWB the space outside him as he pinned the full back. United can do it with the best chosen personnel on the pitch. Got to play the right players and the initial lineup for Spurs wasn’t that, for instance even if playing Greenwood for 90 minutes wasn’t an option, starting him was.
Need to move the ball way faster, none of this left to right rubbish, good movement and fast football, in games we know the opposition will sit deep we need to start Mata, Bruno, Pogba together, or potentially Greenwood instead of Mata.
List those three as they have fast brains and can move the ball quickly with world class play making.
I think this team is getting there, if we can get a Sancho and maybe a proper 9 we will see this side improve loads, there is a seriously strong team with potential in there.
List those three as they have fast brains and can move the ball quickly with world class play making.
I think this team is getting there, if we can get a Sancho and maybe a proper 9 we will see this side improve loads, there is a seriously strong team with potential in there.
You have to be careful with the covid situation
Constant movement from forwards coupled with quicker passing.
Movement in this side has been a problem for a very long time.
In my opinion the two best things that Pep and Klopp bring to the game, movement and obviously they use high intensity pressing to pin sides back as well.
Jogging around and letting the ball shift slowly from one side of the pitch the other is exactly what a deep lying defensive side want us to do. It gives them the time they need to stay compact.
We can have all the best passers in the game picking passes but if the movement is not there then we’re going to struggle.
I was watching a YouTube video of Pogba’s passing range yesterday, the difference in movement Between France national team to United’s forwards is clear as day.
Movement in this side has been a problem for a very long time.
In my opinion the two best things that Pep and Klopp bring to the game, movement and obviously they use high intensity pressing to pin sides back as well.
Jogging around and letting the ball shift slowly from one side of the pitch the other is exactly what a deep lying defensive side want us to do. It gives them the time they need to stay compact.
We can have all the best passers in the game picking passes but if the movement is not there then we’re going to struggle.
I was watching a YouTube video of Pogba’s passing range yesterday, the difference in movement Between France national team to United’s forwards is clear as day.
replace average players with better players
Pogba, Fernandes and a proper RW (Sancho) and I doubt many teams will be able to keep us out no matter how deep they sit. Would help with a pacey CB to stop the counter but thats next stage. Since we have no Sancho yet play Greenwood and rotate with Mata. I think Mata could form a nice partnership with Fernandes and Pogba. At least he can thread a few passes.
Get a new manager. Bingo all is fixed.
Need to dribbling into their box. See what Pogba did and Bruno. 2 times we did that, nearly got us 2 pens.
This gif illustrates one of our problems when it comes to low blocks and attack in general, we don't put enough bodies in the box, there isn't enough movement in and around the box, not enough intent. It's way too comfortable for the defense, in this instance only Martial and Pogba are actually "attacking".
Would you say this is because of the players or the coach?
There are many good inputs here. But, like most things, there is rarely just one solution.
If you analyse it, there are a number of fixed and a number of variables. But it is essentially about creating space.
The pitch size and number of players is fixed and deep lying teams stay very compact, in order to reduce the spaces.
So, you have to keep the play as wide as possible to pull the defence out of position. Either wingers or wing backs hugging the touchline.
And if you keep the play wide, spaces will open up.
If you analyse it, there are a number of fixed and a number of variables. But it is essentially about creating space.
The pitch size and number of players is fixed and deep lying teams stay very compact, in order to reduce the spaces.
So, you have to keep the play as wide as possible to pull the defence out of position. Either wingers or wing backs hugging the touchline.
And if you keep the play wide, spaces will open up.
This has been our problems for years; I’ve done nothing but argue as much. The long and short of it is that we don’t score enough goals. Usually less than Bournemouth in recent seasons.
I think this is something that will improve, though. Ole prepares teams to attack, or at least that’s what he intends, I believe. We’ve also started to buy better players. Pogba and Fernandes will help in a big way. It’s easy to forget (or is it?) that we have largely used Lingard and Pereira as the creative hubs of our team this season; a trial that has cost us greatly.
If it doesn’t start to improve, as long as the important players are fit, then I will be concerned. But I think it’ll get better. I think a proper right winger will help in this regard, too. It’s up to the club to get one over the line in the next transfer window.
I think this is something that will improve, though. Ole prepares teams to attack, or at least that’s what he intends, I believe. We’ve also started to buy better players. Pogba and Fernandes will help in a big way. It’s easy to forget (or is it?) that we have largely used Lingard and Pereira as the creative hubs of our team this season; a trial that has cost us greatly.
If it doesn’t start to improve, as long as the important players are fit, then I will be concerned. But I think it’ll get better. I think a proper right winger will help in this regard, too. It’s up to the club to get one over the line in the next transfer window.
More so the players, obviously they are blessed with awesome forwards but I believe our movement should still be better with what we have.
Klopp and Pep are masters at coaching it.
I think it’s improved under Ole somewhat but still has a ways to go for sure.
I think Ole should bring in a coach who can help him implement this more effectively, Carrick may be able to coach the role he had as a player but I think we need a specialist in both the pressing and movement required.
I don’t mean to keep bringing up Martial but his jogging languid style and lack of pressing is an absolute no-go for this to be implemented. I mean you see Bruno as the no. 10 running and pressing his guts out and running past Martial to press players that he should be pressing. It has to work as a unit.
Oh god.
Maybe first be able to pass it out from the defence first? Not pass it between the central defenders 2 times, then to one of the fullbacks who attempts a pass on a player that is already marked or plays it long inaccurately... How many times over the last 5 years does the fullback receive the ball and the buildup stops? This is basically what happens 75% of the time we attempt to bring the ball forward.
Better movement and more runs in and around the box. Have practiced moves about how we should pass it into the box. Maybe use more crossing too, but for that we need bodies in the box.
With Pogba and Bruno around the passing quality should be high enough to do more complicated moves.
With Pogba and Bruno around the passing quality should be high enough to do more complicated moves.
Probably watch how City and Liverpool do it, and how our teams under SAF used to do it?
City: starts with their center backs, who usually have time on the ball compared to the midfielders who are positioned right outside the box, pinning the opposition in. They have the ability to rapidly switch play from side to side, looking for 2 v 2 or 1 v 1 situations that can be used to get in a quality ball or penetrate the box. For all the flack they get, their ability to act as secondary playmakers is underrated
Liverpool: TAA and Robertson do this but from the wing, they're able to switch play in a second. It makes it extremely hard to be compact against them unless you're packed deep in your box
SAF's great sides: Scholes was extremely good at switching play to the flank where we had a numerical equivalency or advantage, forcing the defense to stretch to cover the threat, while creating gaps our players (including Scholes!) could exploit
Conclusion? Cynical teams will give you the ball and dare you to break them down. If you're moving your best players forward into that space, you need people capable of rapidly switching play for you, and finding favorable matchups for your advanced midfielders/forwards.
If you watched the game against Tottenham, they couldn't have had it any better. We were moving the ball as if it was encased in molasses. Their pressing player was winning the ball from Fred and Scott several times, halting our momentum. When Pogba came on, his ball retention allowed us to build a head of steam but we were still stymied by an inability to create space on either wing.
Hopefully we sort it in the off-season.
City: starts with their center backs, who usually have time on the ball compared to the midfielders who are positioned right outside the box, pinning the opposition in. They have the ability to rapidly switch play from side to side, looking for 2 v 2 or 1 v 1 situations that can be used to get in a quality ball or penetrate the box. For all the flack they get, their ability to act as secondary playmakers is underrated
Liverpool: TAA and Robertson do this but from the wing, they're able to switch play in a second. It makes it extremely hard to be compact against them unless you're packed deep in your box
SAF's great sides: Scholes was extremely good at switching play to the flank where we had a numerical equivalency or advantage, forcing the defense to stretch to cover the threat, while creating gaps our players (including Scholes!) could exploit
Conclusion? Cynical teams will give you the ball and dare you to break them down. If you're moving your best players forward into that space, you need people capable of rapidly switching play for you, and finding favorable matchups for your advanced midfielders/forwards.
If you watched the game against Tottenham, they couldn't have had it any better. We were moving the ball as if it was encased in molasses. Their pressing player was winning the ball from Fred and Scott several times, halting our momentum. When Pogba came on, his ball retention allowed us to build a head of steam but we were still stymied by an inability to create space on either wing.
Hopefully we sort it in the off-season.
Yup, this is a big issue.
Whenever I watch a team of an attacker we're fawning over, it's always 3v4, 4v4, 4v5, even 5v4 in the box. Much easier to create an opportunity that way. Ours usually ends up being 2 players, maybe 3 maximum. The times where we have Greenwood on the pitch he naturally gets into the box so we end up having better numbers in there.
I think that's a big part of why BVB attackers like Haaland and Sancho are able to be productive, because there's always someone free to pick out, or someone to distract the defence and allow them to get a shot off. Dortmund love their 5v4's or sometimes even 6v5's, with even the fullbacks and CM's getting forward, so their attackers' movements in the box don't even need to be that precise, as they're facing off against only one other defender and it's easy to lose or confuse him. It's an area we need to work on for sure.
I’d throw decision making in there. There have been numerous times when we have been on the counter and we’re just one pass away from getting a one on one or a shot off from a decent position only for that finally pass being played to the wrong player or has been overhit/underhit. Martial is the biggest culprit and is a naturally greedy player and at times hangs on to the ball too long but a few can be accused of this inability to find the right pass or execute a killer pass early in the counter.
Get a proper striker and a new Right Winger. Get better full backs.
We need to change our mindset massively.
Since SAF left each manager, in their own way, has worried about what the opposition will do to us more so than what we do to them.
We play well against Citeh & the likes because we sit deep, looking to counter but most weeks we’re facing low blocks.
We don’t have waves of attacks which is a major disappointment, teams that sit low against us will try that sh*t against Liverpool & Citeh to simply face a barrage which often sees them falter; we get caught somewhere in between attack & defence.
Since SAF left each manager, in their own way, has worried about what the opposition will do to us more so than what we do to them.
We play well against Citeh & the likes because we sit deep, looking to counter but most weeks we’re facing low blocks.
We don’t have waves of attacks which is a major disappointment, teams that sit low against us will try that sh*t against Liverpool & Citeh to simply face a barrage which often sees them falter; we get caught somewhere in between attack & defence.
To break down sides that sit deep and narrow against you, you really want some natural width (an attacking left back and a right-footed right winger would balance out the side, since Rashford and Wan Bissaka aren't really capable of stretching the play themselves in the LW & RB positions, respectively). This is the single most important factor that we need to take account of in the summer window.
We’ve been lacking in creativity and guile against the low blocks for far too long. You can’t just play lethargically in front of a team set up to defend and hope something will happen. Hopefully pogba and Bruno can find chemistry and do some damage before the end of the season and get us over the line. Next season no question we need a RW and at least one of the fullbacks to be a decent attacking threat. Width and balance is very important to breaking any team down and it’s too easy concentrate on shutting down our left side. We also still need a striker to bully defenders and move them around. Someone aggressively hustling who can get onto things, brings others into play and obviously has top finishing. Haaland is the lazy answer.
We have the players, there's no excuses in terms of individual quality but I just think our tactics are very easy to contain. For example, vs Spurs we were so much better when Pogba came on and also Matic makes a big difference - if you are playing against a team that sits back and really only tries long balls to fast forwards then the qualities of Fred and McT (physicality, box-to-box, pressing, tackling) are almost pointless. There needs to be a bit more risk taking because otherwise you just get a game like Spurs (which has happened to us a lot this season) where we don;t really create a lot and then defensive errors make us have to chase the game.
Simple things like passing speed across the back four, Lindelof is actually good at this, switching play effectively (there's a big difference in time for defences to reorganise between a long ball that's well struck and to a floated long ball) and also having attacking players learn where to run i.e. James really needs to have more awareness in this regard and sometimes take the dummy run option.
Overall though, Ole doesn't seem overly bothered about creating a system to break teams down and it feels as if he's happy to trust the individual quality of Pogba and/or Bruno to find that perfect pass which feeds in a pacy forward. Personally, I wish we would try to find a bit more of a balance between a cohesive possession based system whilst also retaining the ability to be deadly on the counter.
Simple things like passing speed across the back four, Lindelof is actually good at this, switching play effectively (there's a big difference in time for defences to reorganise between a long ball that's well struck and to a floated long ball) and also having attacking players learn where to run i.e. James really needs to have more awareness in this regard and sometimes take the dummy run option.
Overall though, Ole doesn't seem overly bothered about creating a system to break teams down and it feels as if he's happy to trust the individual quality of Pogba and/or Bruno to find that perfect pass which feeds in a pacy forward. Personally, I wish we would try to find a bit more of a balance between a cohesive possession based system whilst also retaining the ability to be deadly on the counter.
Get a better coach.
Video is time-copied at 1:36. Look at Bernardo Silva's position inside the channel within the box. This is how they get so many cut-back passes across the goal even with a box full of players. Whenever I watch United, I see lots of players in the box, but rarely do I ever see players taking up the position Bernardo is taking up. Obviously it's coaching and repetition.
Half disagree. You can have natural width but opposition defenders will just clear away whatever type of ball the width players provided. Put lot of players in the box & have movement are the key, you want to make sure not only your crossing but also long ball & any services delivered from width & central into the box are received by our players. And also get the best out of set pieces.
At the end of the day team who is focusing of sitting deep & compact need to be organised, require high concentration & good fitness to maintain being under attacked, it's really not easy to do it. If it's succeed then any team will find it difficult to break through it so credit on them. Being clinical is also very crucial, won't get easy chances often.
Quality. Patience. Experience.
It's not about crossing the ball from wide areas, it's about creating space. If the opposition are sitting in a low block, their primary focus is staying structured and compact. As the attacking team, it is your job to break down that structure and open up gaps for your creative players to exploit.
Look at that Man City video linked above - yes, Bernardo makes a great run, but you can see Mahrez and Cancelo holding the width on his outside right, which has dragged the defender out of position, opening up the channel that Foden slides the pass into. That goal never happens if Cancelo is 20 yards further back or if Mahrez is taking up a more central position.
That's what stretching the play is about - prising apart the opposition's structure to create little gaps. It's also the same reason that you want ball playing CBs carrying the ball into midfield - you want to provoke the opposition and draw them out of their defensive shape when they're sat in a low block.
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I never really say the issue is about the crossing here. It looks like you only half read what I wrote there.
A team who wants to play with structure and stay compact should be very well organised not being stretched out or dragged out of position, if the team does that then the team had failed to play that way, big mistake. The goal is very bad defending, there are literally 5 players were ball watching. Schoolboy errors.
For the first video here, look at how many players are in and around the danger area. 4-5 who keep rotating around and 2 holding width, until Lukaku gets a good opportunity to shoot. This is how we need to be playing with Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno, and Pogba all in that danger area, and one of Shaw or AWB staying wide. With our forwards and midfielders' shooting ability, I'm sure we'd score a lot more by simply getitng them further forward, higher up the pitch into the danger zone.His composure really is so bad at times
Imagine if Sampdoria scored a 2nd while this guy fecked up 2 decent chances before that
With that said, there are a few ways to do it, the City way is another one where they find the little gaps for the cutbacks. But with our style of forward and midfielder, I think the "many bodies in the area" method would also yield very good results.
Good players in every positions, commit more players going forward, and attack more? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
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Can’t say that once pogba and Bruno are starting games together. Better answer is replace James with a better RW or at least bring greenwood on earlier and replace Martial with a world class striker.
We need more than just our forwards in the box. I swear our team are filled with players who are allergic to it unless it's a corner. They rarely go in when we're attacking unless it's the last 10 mins of a game and we're chasing a goal because we're down by 1.
People calling fullbacks as one of the ways to break down teams that sit deep makes it look like we wasted money on AWB. Anyways I'm sure we are not buying any fullbacks and I'm sure we should be able to use our 'defensive' fullbacks to our advantage rather than a hindrance
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Player's quality plays a part but this is the main issue.
City create chance after chance regardless of their team or natural width. It is ridiculous how repetitive their goals are.
As a great manager once said, if you concede a goal it's always because you made a mistake. Your job as the attacking side attempting to overcome a low block, is to force those mistakes - using width to your advantage is one of the most potent weapons in your arsenal.
You can attribute the City goal linked above to "schoolboy errors" on Burnley's part, but it is absolutely classic Guardiola - they score that goal multiple times per season. Here's a piece all about Gurdiola's use of touchline-hugging wide players to open up the half spaces for his midfielders to exploit, exactly as seen in the City-Burnley video above:
https://trainingground.guru/articles/pep-guardiola-and-the-half-spaces
To be fair, you don't have to use the fullbacks to create width as Klopp does - Guardiola's often tuck in while the wingers hug the touchline and provide the width. Even if you are using them to attack, it doesn't need to be both fullbacks - Mourinho has generally favoured asymmetrical systems in attack throughout his career, with a clear delineation between the two fullback roles - one attacking and acting as an extra winger, while one sits back for defensive cover (eg Maicon & Chivu/Zanetti, Coentrao/Marcelo & Arbeloa, Ivanovic & Azpilicueta, and now at Spurs with Aurier & Davies).
I think that we could make use of an attacking left back to get forward on the overlap with Rashford, while Wan Bissaka plays a more conservative role on the right (ideally in tandem with a decent right winger stretching the play on that side). This would be a well-balanced side and would be better equipped than we currently are for breaking down some of these stubborn defences.
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