having at least one real winger who can create and/or cross would be a good step
How to get better at breaking down deep sides
- Thread starter Crashoutcassius
- Start date
I agree we need to have a pattern of play, but I don't think van Gaal is good at that. We had plenty of games with no shot on target and we were even worse in breaking organized defences under him.The only thing missing left is "patterns of play". We have just enough variety of players already.
It's down to coaching. I don't think our coaches are coaching the players any good teamplay patterns of play in how to break organised defenses. This is also a problem during the previous manager. LVG is the only one that knows how to (in one way) but his coaching is so bad and dull.
It's so obvious our play is highly dependent on individual skills and creativity "Boys, you're on your own, good luck".
City and Pool have certain repetitive patterns when they play isn't it, every game and it usually works. Every. Single. Game.
We had already been doing that. Bruno had 7 shots yesterday and all of them were from outside the box. It was just not effective to rely on that.Maybe the next time the opponent sits deep, just give the ball away by shooting it straight to their defenders/keeper.
At worst, We'll get a corner kick/throw in.
At best, They will regain possession, which is what this team is tailored to play against.
And then We wait, as usual, to strike back with a lightning counter attack and fast movements.
Easy game. The only team that doesn't want the ball. We don't need the ball, We need the goals!
Fosu-Mens
Full Member
Yet again this thread needs a bump.
1. Bring the ball into the final third without making high risk actions like dribbling (Pogba), dangerous passes etc by movement, efficient passing and overloading in certain areas. Be able to progress the ball through the middle, and on both sides... Make the pitch as large as possible. Don't compress when the team is in possession (Everyone).
2. When the ball is under control in the final third, again keep the width. The fullbacks/players staying wide, don't move centrally and make it easier for the opposition to defend by numbers like Shaw always does. The fullbacks do not need to mark the widest player of the opposition in their own box when the team is in possession (This is so simple and most kids know this). Efficient passing, movement, interchanging positions between players, be patient, cycle the ball between each side, don't shoot at the first opportunity. Watch City and Bayern.
3. Stop passing towards the cornerflag to a player moving away from the goal that has 1/2 players behind him(Shaw, AWB, etc). Easy to trap, impossible to create something from. Recycle the ball towards the other side instead.
4. Ability of players in the squad: Have players without extreme weaknesses that can be exploited, like defenders that are completely useless in iso situations, players that can't pass or always make risky actions...
5. Have a manager/coach that can coach the team to get a cohesive understanding of how to move/pass/press together. When one player makes a certain pass, then 2/3 others should know how to move/position themselves.
We are looking as clueless as we did under Mourinho, the only difference is that the players are not taking the piss, at least not all of them.
1. Bring the ball into the final third without making high risk actions like dribbling (Pogba), dangerous passes etc by movement, efficient passing and overloading in certain areas. Be able to progress the ball through the middle, and on both sides... Make the pitch as large as possible. Don't compress when the team is in possession (Everyone).
2. When the ball is under control in the final third, again keep the width. The fullbacks/players staying wide, don't move centrally and make it easier for the opposition to defend by numbers like Shaw always does. The fullbacks do not need to mark the widest player of the opposition in their own box when the team is in possession (This is so simple and most kids know this). Efficient passing, movement, interchanging positions between players, be patient, cycle the ball between each side, don't shoot at the first opportunity. Watch City and Bayern.
3. Stop passing towards the cornerflag to a player moving away from the goal that has 1/2 players behind him(Shaw, AWB, etc). Easy to trap, impossible to create something from. Recycle the ball towards the other side instead.
4. Ability of players in the squad: Have players without extreme weaknesses that can be exploited, like defenders that are completely useless in iso situations, players that can't pass or always make risky actions...
5. Have a manager/coach that can coach the team to get a cohesive understanding of how to move/pass/press together. When one player makes a certain pass, then 2/3 others should know how to move/position themselves.
We are looking as clueless as we did under Mourinho, the only difference is that the players are not taking the piss, at least not all of them.
Hoboman
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Get a better coach.
Beachryan
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Our front 3 of MMM are all based around interplay and coming into the box from out wide. That simply doesn't work against parked buses. The answer is width, but we have 0 true wide players in our squad. We only have one FB who can cross.
Sadly, I don't think we can improve with the current available options. I love Martial, but we need another CF option in certain situations - could really use an aerial threat, just to create havoc. At present we're outrageously easy to defend against, because there is no threat from crosses, and if teams are behind the ball, we've got nothing.
Sadly, I don't think we can improve with the current available options. I love Martial, but we need another CF option in certain situations - could really use an aerial threat, just to create havoc. At present we're outrageously easy to defend against, because there is no threat from crosses, and if teams are behind the ball, we've got nothing.
Crashoutcassius
Full Member
Obviously we were poor today but when Bruno and pogba played together last season we were mostly good so hopefully this isn't our biggest issue this season
Fosu-Mens
Full Member
For some games, then the opposition started crowding the middle of the pitch and forcing us to pass to our fullbacks when attempting to progress the ball.Obviously we were poor today but when Bruno and pogba played together last season we were mostly good so hopefully this isn't our biggest issue this season
The top sides have all overcome this generally by:
Pinning the opposition back in their own half with pace at the back to cope with the counter attack.
Have threats on both sides of the pitch.
Moving the ball quickly/switch sides
Having attacking threats from full back.
Its been a problem for years but we dont do any of these things well, so its not really a surprise that the problem persists. Having slow CBs has a knockon effect on the other issues.
Pinning the opposition back in their own half with pace at the back to cope with the counter attack.
Have threats on both sides of the pitch.
Moving the ball quickly/switch sides
Having attacking threats from full back.
Its been a problem for years but we dont do any of these things well, so its not really a surprise that the problem persists. Having slow CBs has a knockon effect on the other issues.
VorZakone
What would Kenny G do?
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Fortunately Man Utd didn't buy Reguilon then. Stick with Shaw forever.The top sides have all overcome this generally by:
Pinning the opposition back in their own half with pace at the back to cope with the counter attack.
Have threats on both sides of the pitch.
Moving the ball quickly/switch sides
Having attacking threats from full back.
Its been a problem for years but we dont do any of these things well, so its not really a surprise that the problem persists. Having slow CBs has a knockon effect on the other issues.
Crashoutcassius
Full Member
I agree but we were top of the league table over a period of several months if it were easy to stop us then that wouldn't have been the caseFor some games, then the opposition started crowding the middle of the pitch and forcing us to pass to our fullbacks when attempting to progress the ball.
Bloedrood
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The team played too much around their defense today. Little attempt to break through it with fast passing and combinations, and not enough people getting into their box. Especially from midfield, Bruno and Pogba were more dropping deep, looking to give the passes. That changed a bit after Donny came on. Because he doesn't care if there's no space, he likes to play in and around the penalty box, and wants people passing to him there despite it being busy.
And that goal, it's luck of course it falls in front of his feet, but you create that luck by getting people into their box. There were 4 United players in their box when that happened, so that increases the chance of the cross falling in the feet of a United player and puts pressure on their defense.
And that's what Donny was used to at Ajax, overloading the opponents box with players. Of course that's risky defensively, the balance needs to be right. But you need to get people into their box especially when you're behind, otherwise you end up with 1 or 2 attackers in the box trying to take on 4-5 defenders.
And that goal, it's luck of course it falls in front of his feet, but you create that luck by getting people into their box. There were 4 United players in their box when that happened, so that increases the chance of the cross falling in the feet of a United player and puts pressure on their defense.
And that's what Donny was used to at Ajax, overloading the opponents box with players. Of course that's risky defensively, the balance needs to be right. But you need to get people into their box especially when you're behind, otherwise you end up with 1 or 2 attackers in the box trying to take on 4-5 defenders.
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Crashoutcassius
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welcome back havent seen the OLEOUTs in a few months where ya been??Get a good manager
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I believe Donny said it in his post match. We were slow in everything tonight. Sure breaking at pace is massive but even moving the ball quickly was non existent. We tried for 10 mins at 2 0 and got a goal but with the defensive shambles tonight we couldn't build on it. Lindelof and Maguire were awful on the ball, so slow, Bruno an off game and Pogba played his best 5 mins before he was taken off. Palace made the oitch small but surely with the passing prowess we have in the middle we should be able to move them. Matic should have started and despite his rash challenges for pace alone so should Bailly.
I'm not talking to 10 year oldswelcome back havent seen the OLEOUTs in a few months where ya been??
Nori-
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I read this as "How to get better at breaking down inside" as in cope after Uniteds constant failures.
Sad part is I clicked it wanting answers.
Sad part is I clicked it wanting answers.
Cassidy
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Hire a manager who can develop a tactical plan to do so
Fosu-Mens
Full Member
4/5 games were we progressed the ball through the middle without much problem, then they started to crowd the middle. And some games were we got the first goal and could counter.I agree but we were top of the league table over a period of several months if it were easy to stop us then that wouldn't have been the case
groovyalbert
it's a mute point
Have a reliable defensive duo we can trust to deal with the basic shite thrown at us. We need to feel confident of throwing everything against a side before we've already gone a goal down.
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Get a manager who won't get schooled by Roy Hodgson
FrankDrebin
Don't call me Shirley
Moving the ball quicker, player a higher line,have wingers capable of going on the outside (which neither James or Rashford do),have overlapping fullbacks who are confident attacking the space and have more than one forward centrally in the box.
Fosu-Mens
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You can certainly attack by numbers in some situations, that is overloading on the side, overlaps etc. But simply putting more players forward without a plan is basically what we already do.Have a reliable defensive duo we can trust to deal with the basic shite thrown at us. We need to feel confident of throwing everything against a side before we've already gone a goal down.
Crashoutcassius
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Not pep guardiola then dang itGet a manager who won't get schooled by Roy Hodgson
SAFMUTD
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Width in attack, obviously there is a hell lot of work and coaching to consistently break low block oposition but widht is the key.
johanovic
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Having players on the wings and fullbacks that can take people on and win 1 vs 1 situations is the key to unlocking teams that sit back. We do not have those players as clearly seen today with Rashford and James. Greenwood is no winger either and should be played as a striker. Did Shaw or bissaka make a single assist last season? Compare that to other big teams in europe and we are far away from having top modern attacking fullbacks. Rashford has been dreadful for a long time now and I am disliking pogba more and more. He just does not give a feck and prances around like a primadonna thinking he's a much better player than he really is..workrate for fecks sake..I would love for Keano being taken in as part of the coaching team to give these undeperforming and lazy bastards a kick up the backside....I despise players not giving their all...look at the NBA/NFL players and the work they put in...some talk about formations and give certain players all kind of excuses related to that..but at the end of the day the team that works harder , faster and leave nothing on the field win...just look at bloody Liverpool and Leeds
Foxbatt
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Only width is not the solution. We can put in all the crosses we want but 9 times out of 10 any decent CB will head it away. We need to move the ball a lot more quicker and players need to know how to move into open spaces and for the player in possession when to pass and when to hold it. We only seem to pass when we have no other choice. I would say drop Rashford and play Odion and Martial up front and go for a diamond. I would play Fred and DVB in midfield with Bruno further forward and Matic as the DM.
CG1010
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All our main attacking players are so easy to mark out by just crowding out the middle. People like Rashford, Martial, Bruno etc., need to be on top of their game to be able to create something while being surrounded by half of the opposition team. And last game they weren't. We need a balanced team that is able to win against teams like Palace at home even if most players are having a 6/10 game.
Entire summer, I have been harping about the need to have atleast one good attacking FB who is good at carrying ball forward (an upgrade over Shaw). The need was visible even in the last game, we saw Bruno having to go wide to just collect the ball and shake off his markers. Both Shaw and TFM had huge spaces and opportunities to behind the Palace defence but couldn't make most of in most situations.
Ole has been trying to sign a left back but the club has failed him till now. Tactics are only as good as the players available to the manager. That's true for the best managers in the game, Pep, Klopp included.
Entire summer, I have been harping about the need to have atleast one good attacking FB who is good at carrying ball forward (an upgrade over Shaw). The need was visible even in the last game, we saw Bruno having to go wide to just collect the ball and shake off his markers. Both Shaw and TFM had huge spaces and opportunities to behind the Palace defence but couldn't make most of in most situations.
Ole has been trying to sign a left back but the club has failed him till now. Tactics are only as good as the players available to the manager. That's true for the best managers in the game, Pep, Klopp included.
Freak
Born a freak always a freak.
Width. We are crying out for some quality on the wings (whether it is from a full back or one of our wide forwards). There's a reason why Fergie's teams all relied on width and why City and Liverpool have got quality delivery from the wide positions. Width wins you games when you are a top 4 club because every fecking team likes to sit back and defend against you.
Crashoutcassius
Full Member
Formation talk is a total cop out. We were the best team in the league for 6 months playing the same system. The team is knackered and we need options to rotate in but the players in the pitch need to find more fight as wellHaving players on the wings and fullbacks that can take people on and win 1 vs 1 situations is the key to unlocking teams that sit back. We do not have those players as clearly seen today with Rashford and James. Greenwood is no winger either and should be played as a striker. Did Shaw or bissaka make a single assist last season? Compare that to other big teams in europe and we are far away from having top modern attacking fullbacks. Rashford has been dreadful for a long time now and I am disliking pogba more and more. He just does not give a feck and prances around like a primadonna thinking he's a much better player than he really is..workrate for fecks sake..I would love for Keano being taken in as part of the coaching team to give these undeperforming and lazy bastards a kick up the backside....I despise players not giving their all...look at the NBA/NFL players and the work they put in...some talk about formations and give certain players all kind of excuses related to that..but at the end of the day the team that works harder , faster and leave nothing on the field win...just look at bloody Liverpool and Leeds
We'd be better at it if we had a half-decent manager.
We are terrible at playing out from the back, yet do we stop? No, we keep doing the same shit in the hope it will work
Our attacking players don't get the ball, do we play long balls or anything over the top so they get a touch? No.
We are terrible at playing out from the back, yet do we stop? No, we keep doing the same shit in the hope it will work
Our attacking players don't get the ball, do we play long balls or anything over the top so they get a touch? No.
Fosu-Mens
Full Member
While this video focuses on the final third and assumes that the team is able to progress and recycle possession, it gives a decent vizualisation of how, especially Liverpool attack against the likes of Burnley:
Bebestation
Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
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The 4231 is a formation that doesnt put attacking pressure on a back line that's staying in a low block.
Its about creating chances for one striker - we neither have that type of striker, neither do we have that type of creativity in the team both as Wide AM who are creative or FB's that can cross.
Arguably 3 of our 4 managers have been playing 4231, moyes, Mourinho and Ole. Our inability to create chances isnt down to a certain lack of player, it's been the same formation for nearly a decade.
Just changing the formation to fit the players would work. We can play 433, 352, 4222, or 442 diamond yet we play 4231.
It's why I really am not shouting out about Pochettino either - another 3 years of 4231.
Its about creating chances for one striker - we neither have that type of striker, neither do we have that type of creativity in the team both as Wide AM who are creative or FB's that can cross.
Arguably 3 of our 4 managers have been playing 4231, moyes, Mourinho and Ole. Our inability to create chances isnt down to a certain lack of player, it's been the same formation for nearly a decade.
Just changing the formation to fit the players would work. We can play 433, 352, 4222, or 442 diamond yet we play 4231.
It's why I really am not shouting out about Pochettino either - another 3 years of 4231.
Foxbatt
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My personal opinion is that Rashford and Martial cannot play in the same team regularly to get the best out of them for the team.
I feel that Martial is not a number 9. He is not a poacher nor a CF who can hold the ball or head crosses in. He is best at coming deep and getting the ball and driving thru.
Rashford is also not a CF like that who can do that. He is not as good as Martial in coming deep and collecting the ball and driving thru.
I have a feeling that Jose knew this and was why he was willing to sell Martial. Not because Martial was a bad player but because of the slating he will get if he sold Rashford.
I feel that Martial is not a number 9. He is not a poacher nor a CF who can hold the ball or head crosses in. He is best at coming deep and getting the ball and driving thru.
Rashford is also not a CF like that who can do that. He is not as good as Martial in coming deep and collecting the ball and driving thru.
I have a feeling that Jose knew this and was why he was willing to sell Martial. Not because Martial was a bad player but because of the slating he will get if he sold Rashford.
croadyman
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Yeah you could well be right on that and hope that Cavani can provide us with that guy who can hold the ball up and get on the end of Telles deliveryMy personal opinion is that Rashford and Martial cannot play in the same team regularly to get the best out of them for the team.
I feel that Martial is not a number 9. He is not a poacher nor a CF who can hold the ball or head crosses in. He is best at coming deep and getting the ball and driving thru.
Rashford is also not a CF like that who can do that. He is not as good as Martial in coming deep and collecting the ball and driving thru.
I have a feeling that Jose knew this and was why he was willing to sell Martial. Not because Martial was a bad player but because of the slating he will get if he sold Rashford.
Foxbatt
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It's not just getting end of the crosses. You don't have to be a tall big player to do it. Paulo Rossi was not a big guy but he can hold the ball, dribble and also bring others into it and be at the end of the cross.Yeah you could well be right on that and hope that Cavani can provide us with that guy who can hold the ball up and get on the end of Telles delivery
I hope ole goes with two up front with Cavani and Martial.
MyOnlySolskjaer
Creator of Player Performance threads
Very simple, better quality in the final third.
Teams would much rather Shaw have the ball on the byline than Telles, as they would prefer McTominay or Fred on the edge of the box than Van de Beek.
Teams would much rather Shaw have the ball on the byline than Telles, as they would prefer McTominay or Fred on the edge of the box than Van de Beek.
I think Telles and Cavani will help out quite a bit by giving us an option we didn’t have without them.
We have 2 ways to attack: Either we sit back deep like against the big teams and utilize the pace of Rashford or James on the counter or against the low block we hope Martial, Rashford or Greenwood can create enough space for themselves to get a shot off or win a penalty. In fairness we’ve done well so far but Telles being able to get a decent cross in is a huge upgrade.
We have 2 ways to attack: Either we sit back deep like against the big teams and utilize the pace of Rashford or James on the counter or against the low block we hope Martial, Rashford or Greenwood can create enough space for themselves to get a shot off or win a penalty. In fairness we’ve done well so far but Telles being able to get a decent cross in is a huge upgrade.
cyril C
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Obviously you have not watched any of the Barca game. Pass the ball to Messi, who will attract 2 may be even 3 defenders, which will create space for others, should Messi decided not to dribble pass 3 defenders...Yet again this thread needs a bump.
1. Bring the ball into the final third without making high risk actions like dribbling (Pogba), dangerous passes etc by movement, efficient passing and overloading in certain areas. Be able to progress the ball through the middle, and on both sides... Make the pitch as large as possible. Don't compress when the team is in possession (Everyone).
2. When the ball is under control in the final third, again keep the width. The fullbacks/players staying wide, don't move centrally and make it easier for the opposition to defend by numbers like Shaw always does. The fullbacks do not need to mark the widest player of the opposition in their own box when the team is in possession (This is so simple and most kids know this). Efficient passing, movement, interchanging positions between players, be patient, cycle the ball between each side, don't shoot at the first opportunity. Watch City and Bayern.
3. Stop passing towards the cornerflag to a player moving away from the goal that has 1/2 players behind him(Shaw, AWB, etc). Easy to trap, impossible to create something from. Recycle the ball towards the other side instead.
4. Ability of players in the squad: Have players without extreme weaknesses that can be exploited, like defenders that are completely useless in iso situations, players that can't pass or always make risky actions...
5. Have a manager/coach that can coach the team to get a cohesive understanding of how to move/pass/press together. When one player makes a certain pass, then 2/3 others should know how to move/position themselves.
We are looking as clueless as we did under Mourinho, the only difference is that the players are not taking the piss, at least not all of them.
This is exactly what James is doing, dribble the ball into 3 defenders, he just can't replicate the rest.
But 2 things definitely won't work - playing more MF and overcrowded the middle, and worse, allow your MF to dribble and lose possession
To an average team - width, set piece, pass the ball back and forth 100 times before shooting to wear down your opponent (LVG remember?), or cross the ball 100 times (Moyes remember?)