I don't like the way Bruno takes penalties

The Original

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Then you get that goal where the keeper ended up staying in the middle or just a slight fall either way.
Certainly not if the shot lacks power.

What you described usually happens when the keeper waits but starts to move in the wrong diection at the last moment.

There are keepers who do not guess but wait and see such as Tim Krul.
 

harms

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So if the keeper waits?
There were multiple researches on the way the likes of Bruno & Hazard are taking their penalties. If the keeper stands still until the ball is hit, he is not able to generate enough momentum to get to a well-placed low shot in any of the corners. Standing still is only an option for a panenka or a really, really mishit kick.
 

SirAnderson

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Certainly not if the shot lacks power.

What you described usually happens when the keeper waits but starts to move in the wrong diection at the last moment.

There are keepers who do not guess but wait and see such as Tim Krul.
If any keeper waits to see when the ball is kicked, chances are the ball will be in the back of the net by the time they dive. Sure, if it is kicked soft, but any decent shot and its in the net. I'm joining in mid way in a conversation, so want clarity, are you saying that Bruno's hop penalties lack power?
 

The Original

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If any keeper waits to see when the ball is kicked, chances are the ball will be in the back of the net by the time they dive. Sure, if it is kicked soft, but any decent shot and its in the net. I'm joining in mid way in a conversation, so want clarity, are you saying that Bruno's hop penalties lack power?
Yes I'm suggesting that the hop would deprive the shot of real power which comes from the momentum of the run up
 

The Original

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There were multiple researches on the way the likes of Bruno & Hazard are taking their penalties. If the keeper stands still until the ball is hit, he is not able to generate enough momentum to get to a well-placed low shot in any of the corners. Standing still is only an option for a panenka or a really, really mishit kick.
Any links to this research?
 

harms

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Any links to this research?
I don't have time to google it now, sadly, but you should look towards Jorginho/Hazard's penalties, it definitely include those (as they wait for a keeper to make a mistake).
 

Withnail

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Yes I'm suggesting that the hop would deprive the shot of real power which comes from the momentum of the run up
I think players can generate enough power from a standing start to beat the keeper if the shot is accurate and into the corner.

I don't see this as an issue. Bruno's only missed two penalties (2016 and 2018) and neither were ones where he did the hop. The older one was very poor and far too close the keeper. The second seems like it was a little weak, not into the corner and the keeper seems to have guessed the correct side to jump.



 

SirAnderson

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Yes I'm suggesting that the hop would deprive the shot of real power which comes from the momentum of the run up
True, but at the same time it causes a reaction from the Keeper. Most will instinctively move one way or the other when the see that movement.
If you see the one against Watford, you will also notice that before he lands he takes a look at the movement of the keeper, who, by the way, also takes a very long time to decide and does what I suggested earlier, merely falls over because he didn't commit earlier, if he did, and guessed right, he would have easily saved it cause the shot was soft (like you say) and also not even near the corner. But what Bruno does well is look for that movement before, which helps him decide if and when a keeper waits till the last moment.
Here is that pen:

Finally, has any of his hop goals been saved yet? Think till one is saved, they are pretty effective, and as we can see from Friday's penalty, another plus from it, is that it also causes mental games when keepers are expecting it and he doesn't do it, so for me, as long as it continues to go in, it is effective.
Here you can see Lloris probably expects the hop but by the time the ball is on the move, its too late.
Excuse the music on this one.
 

BenitoSTARR

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You may not like the style but 22/24 penalties scored 91.6% scored.

One miss in 2016 and one in 2018. Unless he starts missing he can do them however he wants.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I think players can generate enough power from a standing start to beat the keeper if the shot is accurate and into the corner.

I don't see this as an issue. Bruno's only missed two penalties (2016 and 2018) and neither were ones where he did the hop. The older one was very poor and far too close the keeper. The second seems like it was a little weak, not into the corner and the keeper seems to have guessed the correct side to jump.



Didn’t see this before posting but perfect post!

The only occasions he’s not scored we’re without the hop in 4 years.

End thread as far as I’m concerned.
 

SirAnderson

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Didn’t see this before posting but perfect post!

The only occasions he’s not scored we’re without the hop in 4 years.

End thread as far as I’m concerned.
And how he has now also made himself known for the hop, we see with Spurs, the expectation and him not doing it, adds an extra advantage. Next time we get a pen, that keeper is going to be guessing what is going to happened, hop or not and it will naturally have to commit to have a chance of getting lucky.
 

Eli Zee

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Yes I'm suggesting that the hop would deprive the shot of real power which comes from the momentum of the run up
You realize the short amount of distance the ball is traveling right? He can generate enough power with accuracy to beat any keeper, unless the keeper jumps before he shoots. But in that case, he just shoots the other way.
 

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As long as he keeps scoring them I couldn't care less how he takes them. He clearly a gifted technical player.I believe he has more than one effective method.
 

SadlerMUFC

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So if the keeper waits?
If a keeper waits, sees which way the ball is going, then tries to dive that way, he will never get there in time to make the save unless it's hit really poorly. You can still generate power with a hop. We also saw Friday that he can mix it up. He didn't do the hop and just powered it in the corner. So keepers aren't going to know what to expect. If they wait for the hop and he doesn't hop, they're screwed. If they take a guess and he does the hop, they're screwed. Basically, either way, they're screwed and the reason why he has such a good penalty record...
 

The Original

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You realize the short amount of distance the ball is traveling right? He can generate enough power with accuracy to beat any keeper, unless the keeper jumps before he shoots. But in that case, he just shoots the other way.
The parameters you described apply to all players so if it worked the way you seem to think then no one would ever miss a penalty kick. No one would need a run-up, and every keeper would simply guess. A lot of keepers do simply guess, but some don't and here is an example of what happens when a keeper waits for the shot. In both cases, the resultant efforts were weak and easily saved.

 

The Original

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If a keeper waits, sees which way the ball is going, then tries to dive that way, he will never get there in time to make the save unless it's hit really poorly. You can still generate power with a hop. We also saw Friday that he can mix it up. He didn't do the hop and just powered it in the corner. So keepers aren't going to know what to expect. If they wait for the hop and he doesn't hop, they're screwed. If they take a guess and he does the hop, they're screwed. Basically, either way, they're screwed and the reason why he has such a good penalty record...
My point is that taking that hop increases the chances of the kicker hitting the ball poorly. You say one can still generate power with a hop but physically its obvious that whatever power generated simply won't be the same as with a straight run-up. Its not uniqiue to the hop, its the same with most penalty takers who use a unique run up. They usually rely on sending the keeper the wrong way but when the keeper doesn't move first, they tend to miss.


You could watch the entire video but pay attention to 5:25 as that is where we see what tends to happen when keepers actually wait.
 

The Original

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I think players can generate enough power from a standing start to beat the keeper if the shot is accurate and into the corner.

I don't see this as an issue. Bruno's only missed two penalties (2016 and 2018) and neither were ones where he did the hop. The older one was very poor and far too close the keeper. The second seems like it was a little weak, not into the corner and the keeper seems to have guessed the correct side to jump.



I think the points you make here really help highlight my argument much better.

If you are a keeper, by now you would realize (if you do your homework), that if you move first with Bruno you will lose 100% of the time. Since moving first presents no prospect of success for a keeper, logically your best move would be to wait and take a chance on him doing the hop and having to switch up to a conventional style when you do not eventually fall for it, and then possibly not kicking with enough power or placement. And as you just showed there, he is not foolproof when kicking in a conventional manner.

This is not necessarily about Bruno in particular for me, it's objective analysis of the technique.
 

Withnail

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I think the points you make here really help highlight my argument much better.

If you are a keeper, by now you would realize (if you do your homework), that if you move first with Bruno you will lose 100% of the time. Since moving first presents no prospect of success for a keeper, logically your best move would be to wait and take a chance on him doing the hop and having to switch up to a conventional style when you do not eventually fall for it, and then possibly not kicking with enough power or placement. And as you just showed there, he is not foolproof when kicking in a conventional manner.

This is not necessarily about Bruno in particular for me, it's objective analysis of the technique.
Its impossible to do the hop and then switch to a conventional style so I'm not sure what you mean.

Also I'm not sure how many conclusions you can draw from two penalties one of which was four years ago.

We'll have to see I suppose. I'd be surprised if he didn't miss one before the end of next season.

However, his record is fantastic and seeing as he's scored a regular one it just puts more doubt into the keeper's mind.
 

el3mel

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He didn't do any weird stuff while shooting the last pen as far as I'm concerned, and he put it really well. I don't have any problems as long as he scores them. My problem with Pogba's dance was he was actually missing several of them.
 

SadlerMUFC

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My point is that taking that hop increases the chances of the kicker hitting the ball poorly. You say one can still generate power with a hop but physically its obvious that whatever power generated simply won't be the same as with a straight run-up. Its not uniqiue to the hop, its the same with most penalty takers who use a unique run up. They usually rely on sending the keeper the wrong way but when the keeper doesn't move first, they tend to miss.


You could watch the entire video but pay attention to 5:25 as that is where we see what tends to happen when keepers actually wait.
I know of two penalty takers who do that same hop. Bruno and Jorginho. Their penalty conversion rate speaks for itself. Would I take a penalty like that? Not at all. I prefer a "Milner" type of penalty. Pick a corner and hit it low and hard. But you can't argue their technique regardless of how ugly it looks. It has a purpose. It's not like Pogba who did his little steps just so he could have a signature move but it offered nothing towards making his penalty harder to save. Theirs has purpose and it works...
 

The Original

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I know of two penalty takers who do that same hop. Bruno and Jorginho. Their penalty conversion rate speaks for itself. Would I take a penalty like that? Not at all. I prefer a "Milner" type of penalty. Pick a corner and hit it low and hard. But you can't argue their technique regardless of how ugly it looks. It has a purpose. It's not like Pogba who did his little steps just so he could have a signature move but it offered nothing towards making his penalty harder to save. Theirs has purpose and it works...
How do you know why Pogba does his steps?
 

Rafaeldagold

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Why on Earth was Rashford going to take the decisive penalty the other night?

We have a penalty taker for the first time in ages who just doesn’t miss & in a crucial moment someone else was going to take it??

Why was Bruno happy with that? Why don’t the team stick to clear designated penalty takers? Or does Ole just let them do whatever they want on the pitch where they don’t care if they go against his orders
 

kouroux

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He didn't do any weird stuff while shooting the last pen as far as I'm concerned, and he put it really well. I don't have any problems as long as he scores them. My problem with Pogba's dance was he was actually missing several of them.
Then wouldn't you say the problem wasn't the dance itself ?
 

JoshBosh

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I think his hop technique is a psychological thing. A bit like an anchor to keep his brain from over thinking the penalty. Its over thinking that causes players to bottle penalites.
 

elmo

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Rashford wasn’t the designated taker against PSG in the last minute but he wanted the penalty.

It would have been Bruno’s second penalty as well, it might have been a good thing to have Rashford taking one, it’s not like his penalty technique is bad, he usually blasts it in the corners.
My preference is still to stick with what I said in my previous post.

Rashford has missed as many penalties this season alone as Bruno has missed in his entire career. There's no real justification in him taking it over Bruno when they're both on the pitch against Spurs with the game on the line.

The whole penalty rotation rubbish was what led to us dropping points earlier in the season, hilarious that Ole could still let it happen. You don't see this happening under Sir Alex.
 

Adam-Utd

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Why on Earth was Rashford going to take the decisive penalty the other night?

We have a penalty taker for the first time in ages who just doesn’t miss & in a crucial moment someone else was going to take it??

Why was Bruno happy with that? Why don’t the team stick to clear designated penalty takers? Or does Ole just let them do whatever they want on the pitch where they don’t care if they go against his orders
Sometimes the same person taking more than one penalty can work as a double bluff in the takers mind.

"do I hit it in the same corner, but if I do the keeper will probably go that way, so I should go for the other side? but what if he thinks that too and goes there also?"

It just causes way too much confusion, best to start a fresh and Rashford is hardly a bad pen taker either.

I'm sure Bruno would be more than happy to take a 2nd one but maybe Ole has said if you get 2 in one game then the other taker gets it.
 

el3mel

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Then wouldn't you say the problem wasn't the dance itself ?
It's the dance. It gives the keeper a long time to read his movement. Pogba doesn't lack accuracy or power in pens, but taking too much time to shoot gives the keeper much better chance to read through it imo.
 

kouroux

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It's the dance. It gives the keeper a long time to read his movement. Pogba doesn't lack accuracy or power in pens, but taking too much time to shoot gives the keeper much better chance to read through it imo.
I don't think so, he's just a shite pen taker, dance or not. It's supposed to give Paul time to see where the keeper is anticipating his shot and go to another direction but I gues he just executes poorly. Nothing will ever beat a classic and simple peno anyway.
 

el3mel

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I don't think so, he's just a shite pen taker, dance or not. It's supposed to give Paul time to see where the keeper is anticipating his shot and go to another direction but I gues he just executes poorly. Nothing will ever beat a classic and simple peno anyway.
That we all agree on. ;)
 

The Original

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Because it adds nothing to the penalty shot. Do you play? If you did, you would know this. If anything, going that slow makes it easier for the keeper to time his dive...
In terms of why Pogba does it, i don't think it matters what you think about whether it works or not. It only matters what Pogba thinks about it and you can't know that.
 

SadlerMUFC

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In terms of why Pogba does it, i don't think it matters what you think about whether it works or not. It only matters what Pogba thinks about it and you can't know that.
Thanks captain obvious, but you are going to be very busy telling everyone on this website that "they can't know that" when they express their opinions...
 

Alemar

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If he scores, I don’t mind even a diving header penalty. What matters is the conversion rate