If all we did is focus on fitness it would be our best summer since Fergie

UncleBob

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See above post.
Not sure how you think that answers my question. You claim all our 3 previous managers complained about fitness, i asked you for documentation on it and you link to a goal.com article about Van Persie....

In terms of Van Persie, given his age and injury struggles it's widely reported that he was allowed to maintain more or less his own fitness regime under Fergie, but that stopped under Moyes (with dire consequences as well).
 

Lee565

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Wasnt fitness all Moyes focused on with his bootcamp style summer training, though I bet the glazers will love the idea that all it takes is a bit of extra fitness to solve the state of this club in the footballing side of things so they can continue raking in the profits for themselves whilst showing the least amount of ambition for the club since the summer when we sold Ronaldo.
 

dove

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Moyes tried that and failed miserably. If we train only fitness and be headless chickens on the pitch - good luck with that.
 

Gordon S

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To get the players properly fit for once would be a good and important first step at least. Since our squad is not nearly good enough to play teams off the park with pure skills, we need to be able to run a lot more than what we have seen recent years.
 

VP89

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Fitness is vital and if any of our players don't like it then tough titties.
 

Sky1981

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Yh he straight away identified our issues re fitness, I think his problem was just his style of management is so intense players just got rubbed up the wrong way. He also inherited a terrible team and his big signings really didn't work out.

I know the caf is a place of often ridiculous commentary but the problems around fitness have been long documented on here, the fact it's so obvious to the outside eye makes it even more unacceptable to still be a problem. If we sign no one else but ole whips the players into top fitness, that's worth so much to us.
Fitness in this level of football isnt a technical issue anymore. It'll fall under mentality.

Points and considerations if you're injured. But when half the team runs out of gas on 60 minute mark that's on mentality. As a highest paid professionals in the football world you dont need your manager to design a specific routine to make you run 90 minutes, that should be the basic entry requirement.
 

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There should be balance but yeah fitness is very important.

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Excellent post mate. I'm getting seriously pissed off with one-liner comments about how we only train to run based on absolutely feck all.

Some fans need to get their heads screwed on properly and vent their frustration at the right direction, not flooding every thread with just meaningless bashing and sarcastic comments.

Being in the best physical and fitness shape possible will allow the players to fully maximise their footballing potential. I don't even understand how anyone can be against that and from looking at the training videos, we do loads of sessions involving specific drills with the ball - one-touch passing, pass and move, receive and shoot and many other examples. It also seems everything is done in high intensity which is the reason the players need to be 100% ready physically as such high work-load can lead to injuries if the squad isn't properly prepared. That's also why every player had their summer program to come back in the required shape.
 

Green_Red

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There should be balance but yeah fitness is very important.

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Well Pep only really had Man City pouring in season 2. The first season I remember him getting shirty with the press a few time. Does that mean Ole will need at least 1 more summer to get them fit enough to finish a game strong or will we be good after 1 pre season?
 

noodlehair

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I actually find it quite astonishing that at the very top level of football, you can get an edge over other players and teams by doing cutting edge stuff like bothering to get yourself fit.

Imagine paying someone hundreds of thousands of pounds a week to be an elite professonal athlete and not even bothering to make sure they go to the gym every now and then.
 

A9X SJ

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I find people who are extremely fit but not the greatest at football are the best players to have on your side with one or two skilful players certainly helps at 5's when they do all the running
 

Grande

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Not sure how you think that answers my question. You claim all our 3 previous managers complained about fitness, i asked you for documentation on it and you link to a goal.com article about Van Persie....

In terms of Van Persie, given his age and injury struggles it's widely reported that he was allowed to maintain more or less his own fitness regime under Fergie, but that stopped under Moyes (with dire consequences as well).
I think maybe you confuse me with someone else.

I only notified you about the link because I thought it may be interesting, not as an exhibit in someone elses trial.

Regarding the thread, there is a lot of evidence that Moyes upped the fitness focus drastically in training. I can’t remember if he complained publicly, but I think it’s uncontroversial to say he wasn’t satisfied with the fitness levels and wanted to improve them.

It worked at Everton, it worked at West Ham. Is it good, is it bad? Hard to tell, one should thinknit is good, but ther’s fitness and there’s fitness. If he didn’t get the players on board, if it was the kind of fitness needed to play hoof the ball, if he implemented it so that a fourth of the players got injured, if he didn’t have the right tactics for the players nor the club, if he was clueless about the magnitude of the job, it wouldn’t really suffice if he had a good fitness regime.
 

Thiagoal

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The players should be extremely fit no matter who the manager is but running is as much a mentality! Do the players give a feck and are they willing to go through pain to help their team mates? Last season some players clearly didn’t! Players like Lukaku, Pogba, Shaw, Matic didn’t have the desire to track runners/ bust a gut. That’s more the issue
 

Grande

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Well Pep only really had Man City pouring in season 2. The first season I remember him getting shirty with the press a few time. Does that mean Ole will need at least 1 more summer to get them fit enough to finish a game strong or will we be good after 1 pre season?
If Pep With Billions is the comparison, all other managers will look bad, Klopp and Poch as well. Yet even he, after a full preseason, saw his team win ten straight games, and after that deteriorate for the rest of the season, falling two places in the table. It’s a tough league to build from scratch in.
 

roonster09

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Well Pep only really had Man City pouring in season 2. The first season I remember him getting shirty with the press a few time. Does that mean Ole will need at least 1 more summer to get them fit enough to finish a game strong or will we be good after 1 pre season?
Pep made Nasri and couple of other players train separately as they weren't fit when reported to preseason. They worked from day 1, obviously it takes time than just 1 preseason. Check Liverpool for example, initially they had few injuries, gassed out when closing the game and then finally achieved superb levels.

Not saying Ole can achieve all that, just that we will still have issues in the season.
 

roonster09

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Excellent post mate. I'm getting seriously pissed off with one-liner comments about how we only train to run based on absolutely feck all.

Some fans need to get their heads screwed on properly and vent their frustration at the right direction, not flooding every thread with just meaningless bashing and sarcastic comments.

Being in the best physical and fitness shape possible will allow the players to fully maximise their footballing potential. I don't even understand how anyone can be against that and from looking at the training videos, we do loads of sessions involving specific drills with the ball - one-touch passing, pass and move, receive and shoot and many other examples. It also seems everything is done in high intensity which is the reason the players need to be 100% ready physically as such high work-load can lead to injuries if the squad isn't properly prepared. That's also why every player had their summer program to come back in the required shape.
Exactly and this is something Klopp mentioned.
Everything you do is based around physical potential and what you do in preseason is key to that
Also few journalists were so giddy when Conte, Klopp made these players work in double, triple sessions but when Ole did it "it's too British". Anyways it was Ogden who is just crap journalist and was only reliable when we had Moyes.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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Whats the point of having ability to whip a 30 yard curler if you dont have the fitness required to reach the ball before opposition gets there first?
It matters, getting there even few milliseconds early opens up so much more possibilities, especially late in the game where everyone is settled and tired.

Thats what we were famed for. Keep going till the last second.

Don't tell me it doesn't matter to any athlete or any sports.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I think people just want to believe no other manager has tried it and Ole will just get them to run around more and our problems will be fixed. Already saw that end of last season where some still believe it was only fitness holding us back
Fitness was a big part of it though. Mourinho's style is becoming increasingly outdated. We were the side that ran the least in the league under him. In Martial and Lukaku we had two players in the bottom 6 of the whole league for ground covered. Pogba was near the bottom of the league for ground covered for midfield players. We just didn't defend from the front and were bypassed in midfield too easily in transitions. Ole upped the intensity when he came in but it did appear the players then gassed. I'm not saying it was the only issue but it certainly played a part.
 

JPRouve

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Fitness was a big part of it though. Mourinho's style is becoming increasingly outdated. We were the side that ran the least in the league under him. In Martial and Lukaku we had two players in the bottom 6 of the whole league for ground covered. Pogba was near the bottom of the league for ground covered for midfield players. We just didn't defend from the front and were bypassed in midfield too easily in transitions. Ole upped the intensity when he came in but it did appear the players then gassed. I'm not saying it was the only issue but it certainly played a part.
While mainly the same players were around the top with Van Gaal. People underestimate the place of tactics and the way it influences player's conditioning. Also there is a reason why Mourinho was known for using a small amount of players and still avoid injury crisis.
 

UncleBob

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I think maybe you confuse me with someone else.

I only notified you about the link because I thought it may be interesting, not as an exhibit in someone elses trial.

Regarding the thread, there is a lot of evidence that Moyes upped the fitness focus drastically in training. I can’t remember if he complained publicly, but I think it’s uncontroversial to say he wasn’t satisfied with the fitness levels and wanted to improve them.

It worked at Everton, it worked at West Ham. Is it good, is it bad? Hard to tell, one should thinknit is good, but ther’s fitness and there’s fitness. If he didn’t get the players on board, if it was the kind of fitness needed to play hoof the ball, if he implemented it so that a fourth of the players got injured, if he didn’t have the right tactics for the players nor the club, if he was clueless about the magnitude of the job, it wouldn’t really suffice if he had a good fitness regime.
It's rather simple. I asked for a link regarding a specific claim, you jump in with a link, so you're certainly getting involved in defending the claim.

In terms of the rest of your claims. Moyes was (still is?) clueless about the magnitude of the job and tactics.
 

Grande

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It's rather simple. I asked for a link regarding a specific claim, you jump in with a link, so you're certainly getting involved in defending the claim.

In terms of the rest of your claims. Moyes was (still is?) clueless about the magnitude of the job and tactics.
You come across as unnecessarily grumpy. You could just say ‘sorry, I mistook you for Smores. I see your link is possibly relevant to part of the post I was answering to, but I was looking for more’.

By ‘getting involved in defending ...’ you make it sound like a bar brawl or something. I’m neither attacking nor defending anyone here, just posting (rather than ‘jumping in with) a link as an answer to another post (not yours), that I thought maybe could be in part relevant. I can’t see I was particularly impolite about it either.

What is it in particular you are sceptical about and want documented in that Smores post to begin with?
 

Pogue Mahone

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While mainly the same players were around the top with Van Gaal. People underestimate the place of tactics and the way it influences player's conditioning. Also there is a reason why Mourinho was known for using a small amount of players and still avoid injury crisis.
Before he joined United maybe. His time at the club somehow ended up with a bloated squad and relentless injuries.
 

JPRouve

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Before he joined United maybe. His time at the club somehow ended up with a bloated squad and relentless injuries.
I'm talking about his approach over the years. Mourinho at United is a lesser version of his former self not a completely different one. I also believe that this year's fitness problems are directly linked to Rui Faria leaving, he was Mourinho's fitness specialist.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I'm talking about his approach over the years. Mourinho at United is a lesser version of his former self not a completely different one. I also believe that this year's fitness problems are directly linked to Rui Faria leaving, he was Mourinho's fitness specialist.
I was hoping/expecting the lean squad with very few injuries we’d seen at his former clubs but don’t think we ever got to see that. In either season under him. Which made our lack of workrate even more galling.
 

roonster09

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I'm talking about his approach over the years. Mourinho at United is a lesser version of his former self not a completely different one. I also believe that this year's fitness problems are directly linked to Rui Faria leaving, he was Mourinho's fitness specialist.
We also were 20th in last 2 seasons when Rui Faria was at ManUtd. It's by design though, that's how Jose wants his team to play. Low block and quick counters.

I checked Chelsea's record, they were outside top 10 in 2015-16 and then 8th, 4th when Conte was manager
 

JPRouve

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We also were 20th in last 2 seasons when Rui Faria was at ManUtd. It's by design though, that's how Jose wants his team to play. Low block and quick counters.

I checked Chelsea's record, they were outside top 10 in 2015-16 and then 8th, 4th when Conte was manager
I know I'm specifically talking about our issues this season. I have shared those stats many times on the forums but this season was particularly bad with players barely able to execute the bare minimum. The way Mourinho makes his teams play will lead to low cumulative stats, like I said to Pogue in an other thread, Mourinho doesn't play a 100 meter game, he tries to play "half court" and some players like the fullbacks play in a relatively limited area, the center midfielders and strikers don't go wide, for example people should have a look at the amount of touches from our fullbacks in the opposition's third, it's very low.
 
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roonster09

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I know I'm specifically talking about our issues this season. I have shared those stats many times on the forums but this season was particularly bad with players barely able to execute the bare minimum. The way Mourinho makes his teams play will lead to low cumulative stats, like I said to Pogue in an other thread, Mourinho doesn't play a 100 meter game, he tries to play "half court" and some players like the fullbacks play in a relatively limited areas, the center midfielders and strikers don't go wide, for example people should have a look at the amount of touches from our fullbacks in the opposition's third, it's very low.
Yeah agree with that.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I know I'm specifically talking about our issues this season. I have shared those stats many times on the forums but this season was particularly bad with players barely able to execute the bare minimum. The way Mourinho makes his teams play will lead to low cumulative stats, like I said to Pogue in an other thread, Mourinho doesn't play a 100 meter game, he tries to play "half court" and some players like the fullbacks play in a relatively limited area, the center midfielders and strikers don't go wide, for example people should have a look at the amount of touches from our fullbacks in the opposition's third, it's very low.
I get that it was tactical. An upside of this conservatism was supposed to be players getting less injuries and finishing the season stronger/fitter than the teams around them. Which didn’t happen. Constantly being outrun by the opposition also made us less and less enjoyable to watch. So there’s that too.
 

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I get that it was tactical. An upside of this conservatism was supposed to be players getting less injuries and finishing the season stronger/fitter than the teams around them. Which didn’t happen.
Some of our players are hopeless when it comes to injuries, it's always the same so I suspect that they have issues that go beyond fitness and rest. Mourinho isn't a miracle worker, even if we all hoped that he was.
 

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Speaking of basics, i felt LVG had that spot on. footbal was quite horrendous, maybe the 3rd season would have seen the rewards.
It would've worked brilliantly had we had top players going forward. His tactics demand that, otherwise it's dull with no change of tempo whatsoever. Speaking about the basics, though, we did have that under him. Loads of triangles, great passing (even if too horizontal) and technically we looked a level above everything we've seen post Fergie. I liked him because you could at least see some sort of identity and reason behind our play. With Moyes and Mourinho it was all chaos.
 

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Why is it assumed that fitness training must always come at cost of other aspects? It's possible to have a tactical/teamwork session with a lot of running. Drilling a tactical unit must involve a lot running. Coaching should be creative.

In his first preseason interview, OGS mentioned "start of the modern football" speaking about training during his time as a footballer. As a part of the squad he witnessed how flexible SAF was in terms of coaching. Unlike Mourinho, SAF could bring a new Assistant and change entire coaching system to embrace the changes in football. SAF also could pick a right man and trust him to instill his tactical and coaching ideas. Carls Queiroz comes to mind.

Some of our supporters think of Ole as a dinosaur who stayed in 1990s and completely ignores what modern successful coaches do. How do you know that? Ogden words about "British" training sound made up. Do footballers use the terms "continental" and "British" describing their daily routine? Wording make me think that he wants to stir up a debate and get retweets or other form of attention. He monitors our concerns and makes a "news" which is likely to get a lot of attention because it fits the narrative of a big faction of our fans.
 
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youngrell

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Our fitness has been shocking, total opposite to what we've been used to in the past.

Our fitness often seen us over the line in tight games under Fergie, those late winners were in large part because of it. I always felt we would eventually wear down a stubborn defence but recently our assault on the opposition's goal just wanes the longer the game goes on.

Hopefully we can get back to being physically better than 90% of the league along with being technically better.
 

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It would've worked brilliantly had we had top players going forward. His tactics demand that, otherwise it's dull with no change of tempo whatsoever. Speaking about the basics, though, we did have that under him. Loads of triangles, great passing (even if too horizontal) and technically we looked a level above everything we've seen post Fergie. I liked him because you could at least see some sort of identity and reason behind our play. With Moyes and Mourinho it was all chaos.
Yeah, the football quite drab. Seems like the players had to be efficient which they were not!
 

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To me it sounds like media/agent spin and something totally inflated. Pre-season training is never fun, and if you already got "low" fitness levels, then even more so will a strong physical focus be felt as... terrible. I think we all agree on that the general level of fitness needs to improve, we need to be able to hold our own.
 

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I think the will to run i.e. motivation to compete is more important.

For some reason, easy excuse "lacking fitness" are used to explain why many of our players "stop trying" the last 3-4 months. This is despite few other players of ours still compete and giving it their all -- few ran hard, many stop trying. Different training sessions eh

So this need the manager to push and demand more from his players. Klopp, Poch and Pep are known for their demanding style of coaching/managing. They dropped their players not giving it their all.. until they either do or out.