*If* Milan knock out Barcelona...

[Ish]

Yep, Bayern's defence is better. They're a hard working, cohesive unit, who have enough firepower to get the goals. Their squad is brilliant, on the bench they have players like Gomez, Robben, Gustavo, Badstuber/Boateng (if they're not both playing).

Especially over 2 legs, they are going to be really difficult to beat.

But as we all know, knockout competitions are a semi-lottery. 1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 moment of individual brilliance could tilt the balance in any match.

I'd love to see them draw Dortmund, if they both get through.

 

[SharkyMcShark]

Bayern
Juve
Dortmund
Us

 

[Godfather]

In order:
Bayern
Us/Madrid
Juventus/Dortmund/
PSG/Milan
...

the rest

Could be the most exciting final in years or it could be Schalke/Malaga/Gala/Porto/Shakhtar

*kudos to them if they get to the final and some people might still think that's exciting.

This. Things would get so much more exciting with Barca out.

 

[kafta]

I seriously doubt Manchester City are ahead of dortmund

 

[Godfather]

Starting 11 vs United at home in 2010:

Butt
Lahm, van Buyten, Demichelis, Badstuber
van Bommel, Pranjic
Altintop, Müller, Ribery
Olic​

Most likely in the quarter finals this season

Neuer
Lahm, Boateng, Dante, Alaba
Schweinsteiger, Martinez
Müller, Kroos, Ribery
Mandzukic​

Quite astonishing if you see it on paper. Especially the midfield is so much better now.

 

[Count Orduck]

Bayern
Juve
Dortmund
Us

I'd put Madrid above Juve below Bayern, but otherwise agree.

 

[Balu]

Quite astonishing if you see it on paper. Especially the midfield is so much better now.

Yeah, looking at that lineup, I think it's crazy Bayern fluked a win at home. You guys should have destroyed us. Robben and Schweinsteiger played the second leg, though. Would make it look less crazy. Basically in 2009 started a transitional phase and Bayern got better every year since then. It's weird that we almost won the treble in the first year and didn't win a single title the next two years with better teams. Now the team is still very young and is imo already the best Bayern team since 1999 with the potential to become the best Bayern team since the seventies. The next 5 years should be fun for Bayern fans.

 

[Mad Winger]

I think people really underestimate us. This would be my "world ranking" as of this moment.

First seed
1. Barcelona
2. Manchester United
3. Bayern Munchen
4. Real Madrid

Second seed:
5. Borussia Dortmund
6. Manchester City

Third seed:
7. Juventus
8. Chelsea
9. PSG
10. Atletico Madrid

Decent teams that just didn't make the cut: Porto, Schalke, Tottenham, Shakhtar, Arsenal and Malaga.

EDIT:
I switched City and Dortmund.

 

[Antisocial]

Probably Bayern, but they've been so close recently and choked at the final (even at home, which must be the most damaging part of their failure) so there might be questions about their mentality to see the campaign through to the end.

After them then probably Real Madrid - nothing else to play for, a manager who thinks he's the master of the competition and immense pressure to get their tenth trophy to motivate them. Them winning it would piss me off only slightly less than Roman finally getting his hands on it last season, given the circus the club is and given how much I despise the whole "Galacticos" shit. Also they would've dumped us out on the way to winning it, but I'm leaving that aside for now.

After that then probably Juventus; maybe Dortmund if they can show their impressive form from the group stages. PSG dark horses?

I don't mind Bayern or Dortmund winning it - they are certainly preferable to Real Circus, Juventus or yet another sugar-daddy buying the thing. If we go out, then I'd be content with Barcelona winning it also, should they survive the tie.

But otherwise - it's ON!!, etc.

 

[Zen86]

Not quite sure why City are so high up in a few lists. You're only as good as you perform and they've been shite in the league this season and laughable in Europe.

 

[coolredwine]

I think people really underestimate us. This would be my "world ranking" as of this moment.

First seed
1. Barcelona
2. Manchester United
3. Bayern Munchen
4. Real Madrid

Second seed:
5. Borussia Dortmund
6. Manchester City

Third seed:
7. Juventus
8. Chelsea
9. PSG
10. Atletico Madrid

Decent teams that just didn't make the cut: Porto, Schalke, Tottenham, Shakhtar, Arsenal and Malaga.

EDIT:
I switched City and Dortmund.

They underestimate us because we haven't been as convincing as expected this season, and combine that with the horror show last season, people end up ranking us below than what it should be.

I disagree with your rankings though. I'd say, Bayern are marginally ahead of us, while Real being on level with us. Also, no way a team crashing twice out of group stages should be ahead of the likes of Juventus.

For me:

Barcelona
Bayern Munich
Manchester United/Real Madrid
Juventus
Borussia Dortmund

If Barcelona do crash out, Bayern do have a very good chance of winning the CL, until unless they end up with the bottle job once again.

 

[Mad Winger]

Not quite sure why City are so high up in a few lists. You're only as good as you perform and they've been shite in the league this season and laughable in Europe.

They are the reigning champions of the PL, and they are still placed second in said league. They've been laughable in Europe yeah, but they've also had pretty rough groups tbf.

While they're not amongst the cream of crop(Barca, us, Bayern, Real), they still deserve to be ranked pretty high. Maybe not within the top 5, but at least within the top 10.

 

[That'sHernandez]

I don't understand the Borussia Dortmund love-in. They've brought in/through some good young players, so what? We do it every season, Barcelona do it all the time so why are Borussia Dortmund some hot property all of a sudden? Because they won the Bundesliga last season? They're not even top of their league this season, they're 15 points behind Bayern who no one really considers to be shit-hot.

 

[Mad Winger]

Also, no way a team crashing twice out of group stages should be ahead of the likes of Juventus.

The level of the Serie A is a joke compared to the PL, though. Also, Juventus is a pretty "new" team. They might flop completely next year, just like so many other Italian sides in recent history. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the reigning champion of the PL is a slightly better team than the current "hot shot" from Serie A.

And what's up with everyone putting Juventus ahead of Dortmund?

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Its not really too much of a debate is it?

If Barca go out Byaern are the second favourites.

Real Madrid/United are then 3rd favourites. I cant see a way in which either United are second faovurites or any less than than 3rd favourites, Bayern are very, very strong all over the pitch.

Juventus are good but not at the level of the other 4 teams.

 

[Jayvin]

Let's say we got through and Barca got knocked out by Milan. What would be the order of teams people would want to draw ?

Schalke
Porto
PSG/Juventus/Milan
Dortmund
Bayern

 

[Mad Winger]

I don't understand the Borussia Dortmund love-in. They've brought in/through some good young players, so what? We do it every season, Barcelona do it all the time so why are Borussia Dortmund some hot property all of a sudden? Because they won the Bundesliga last season? They're not even top of their league this season, they're 15 points behind Bayern who no one really considers to be shit-hot.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Bayern.

But Juventus are underrated. They have a fantastic midfield. Dortmund play a style that we always struggle with i.e. high pressing. So they have a chance too.

Also Milan will have the feeling of "something special" if they knock Barca out. They seem to come alive in this competition.

The UCL has been strong this season. Very strong.

 

[That'sHernandez]

What's funny?

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

What's funny?

Sorry, but your post was BS.

 

[That'sHernandez]

And why's that? Tell me exactly what Dortmund have done in Europe

 

[Cina]

And why's that? Tell me exactly what Dortmund have done in Europe

Finished top of the group of death?

 

[Mad Winger]

What's funny?

Your criminal underestimation of Dortmund and the Bundesliga in general.

In the last 2 and a half years, Dortmund has won the Bundesliga twice, the German Cup once, and finished at the very top of a group consiting of the Champions from Spain, England and The Netherlands. To top it off they have a lot of young and up and coming talent, and the world's most impressive "new-comer" coach in Klopp.

If anything, it's only to be expected that they're struggling a bit in their domestic league now. They've earned it. They can't dominate every season.

 

[ryan_forlan]

@Ryan forlan

(sorry bud, can't use the quote function at work)

Bayern is so highly rated because of their performances in the competition over the past 18 months, coupled with their Bundelisga form this season. They were quote close winning a treble last year as well, weren't they?

They will be difficult to beat because they're such a cohesive unit. But I'd expect any one of us, Madrid, Dortmund, Juve and maybe even PSG to give them a proper 50-50 match.

no worries about the quote thing.
anyway, i get. they are good and we know it. but i still am not sure they are at the level people are putting them. i really think that we are better than them. anyway, let's agree to disagree

 

[Cevno]

Dortmund finished like bottom of their group last season. A group which Arsenal won comfortably.

They beat City with Mancini this time and all of a sudden they are supposed to be the second best favorites ?

 

[That'sHernandez]

Finished top of the group of death?

I don't see the relevance, we would have. What makes them worthy of being contenders over us? They drew away at Real Madrid, so did we in what I would consider a more high-pressure game where away goals count.

 

[Fergus' son]

Man Utd
Dortmund
Bayern Munich
Real Madrid
PSG
Juventus
Shaktar
Milan

 

[kafta]

With real and barca out, teams i would like to avoid would be juve and dortmund, only because we would struggle to deal with high intensity pressing (or at least we always seem to in recent history).
That said, i wouldnt say anyone should really intimidate us gravely.

 

[Mad Winger]

Dortmund finished like bottom of their group last season. A group which Arsenal won comfortably.

They beat City with Mancini this time and all of a sudden they are supposed to be the second best favorites ?

It's all about compenstation. Dortmund failed in the CL(because of inexperience more than anything), but took The Double in Germany. We on the other hand, failed in an even easier group last season, and we didn't even take home the PL or FA cup. Why do people rate us so highly then?

 

[Member 39557]

Dortmund finished like bottom of their group last season. A group which Arsenal won comfortably.

They beat City with Mancini this time and all of a sudden they are supposed to be the second best favorites ?

Their style doesn't suit us, similar high pressing to Barca and Athletic.


I think Milan will beat Barca in the return leg too.

 

[Cina]

I don't see the relevance, we would have. What makes them worthy of being contenders over us? They drew away at Real Madrid, so did we in what I would consider a more high-pressure game where away goals count.

feck all people have said over us though! More so that they're dark horses with the potential to cause a few upsets in the competition. You can't just dismiss their winning of a group (which included victories over City and Madrid) that had the reigning champions of Spain, Holland and England in it. That's total bullshit really. They also got a result against Shakhtar away from home, a team Chelsea couldn't get anywhere against. They've done fantastically well in Europe so far, what the feck else are they supposed to do to prove they can challenge?

 

[SharkyMcShark]

I'd put Madrid above Juve below Bayern, but otherwise agree.

I'd agree with that but we're going off the premise that Barca go out and we go through right?

 

[Member 39557]

feck all people have said over us though! More so that they're dark horses with the potential to cause a few upsets in the competition. You can't just dismiss their winning of a group (which included victories over City and Madrid) that had the reigning champions of Spain, Holland and England in it. That's total bullshit really. They also got a result against Shakhtar away from home, a team Chelsea couldn't get anywhere against. They've done fantastically well in Europe so far, what the feck else are they supposed to do to prove they can challenge?

Very true.

 

[ryan_forlan]

I agree. Bayern will struggle against these italian defenses as usual. I think Juve and Milan are more likely to kick us out than United and Real. I really hope Müller could be the difference, if we draw an italian team. He's the most dangerous player at Bayern and imo should be able to score or assist against anyone.



Bayern were a good team in 2010 with a lucky CL run, imo. Since then, we improved every season, not only by buying players. Don't forget, Ribery was far off his best in 2010 after lots of injuries and personal problems, Robben was injured for the first leg and not at his best in the second leg against United. Müller, Alaba, Badstuber are way better players now, Kroos, Boateng, Neuer are individually better than the last years and helped the team play a tactical system that works better than van Gaal's in 2010 and 2011. Yes, we won nothing the last two years, but it shouldn't speak against the quality on the pitch and probably is a huge motivation as well.

Besides Lahm and Schweinsteiger Bayern have individually improved in every single position in the team since the games vs United in 2010, along with a better tactical setup and great squad depth as well. I'm not saying they are favorites vs United, Real, Dortmund or Juve. These teams are so close in quality that the ties can go either way, imo. Just wanted to explain why Bayern are now a way stronger team than 2009-2011 and probably will be able to compensate better for suspensions/injuries compared to last year's CL final.

That's elaborate. Let me thank you for that. I totally understand and buy the reasons listed out by you. But still I don't think they have done or won enough to justify the level they are at in people's eyes(i forgot to add this to my previous post). I do rate their squad and envy some players that bayern have, but still as a club they need to be dominating and consistent to hold the kind of reputation they have right now. While in recent times they have been anything but that.
I have the same problem with Real. This season, right from the beginning, Barca, Real and Bayern have been top 3 clubs in europe. All it took us to end up a level considerably lower than their's was one CL early exit. After amazing consistency over the last 5 years.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Your criminal underestimation of Dortmund and the Bundesliga in general.

In the last 2 and a half years, Dortmund has won the Bundesliga twice, the German Cup once, and finished at the very top of a group consiting of the Champions from Spain, England and The Netherlands. To top it off they have a lot of young and up and coming talent, and the world's most impressive "new-comer" coach in Klopp.

If anything, it's only to be expected that they're struggling a bit in their domestic league now. They've earned it. They can't dominate every season.

Bayern are chokers and United would take them to the sword, I am confident of that. We would have beaten them in 09 were it not for an unjust sending off however that's another argument.

Again, like I said, so what if they have a lot of young and upcoming talent? So do plenty of clubs, what sets Borussia Dortmund apart from them? What have they actually done, other than win the Bundesliga? Why can't they dominate every season? Barcelona managed it, United have managed it. What is the issue? Why are you making excuses for them? Pure fanboy-ism no doubt.

I don't see what relevance Klopp is either, what makes him better than Tito Vilanova, Ferguson or Mourinho? Dortmund's defence is as exploitable as any team's, I really don't understand why anyone would consider them favourites ahead of United, Barca and Real Madrid. All clubs are still in the tournament.

 

[That'sHernandez]

feck all people have said over us though! More so that they're dark horses with the potential to cause a few upsets in the competition. You can't just dismiss their winning of a group (which included victories over City and Madrid) that had the reigning champions of Spain, Holland and England in it. That's total bullshit really. They also got a result against Shakhtar away from home, a team Chelsea couldn't get anywhere against. They've done fantastically well in Europe so far, what the feck else are they supposed to do to prove they can challenge?

And they did sweet FA in it last season in a relatively easy group. Granted, we were shocking too but we were also in the final the previous season. Again, what makes them so special?

 

[Cevno]

It's all about compenstation. Dortmund failed in the CL(because of inexperience more than anything), but took The Double in Germany. We on the other hand, failed in an even easier group last season, and we didn't even take home the PL or FA cup. Why do people rate us so highly then?

Because we have been the second most succesful team in Europe for the past 5 seasons before this reaching 3 finals out of 5. Which is actually more than Barca.

And winning the PL which we lost on goal difference is hardly comparable to winning the Bundesliga. By that logic might as well rate Shakthar higher than all of them and they beat the reigning European champions as well.

Dortmund have a young exciting team, and a good coach but this is a different kettle of fish. Even Arsenal during their invincible period failed to register in Europe at times. Dortmund's inexperience should show up some time.

Not saying they can't cause a upset or can't win, but 2nd favorites they aren't.

 

[Zen86]

They are the reigning champions of the PL, and they are still placed second in said league. They've been laughable in Europe yeah, but they've also had pretty rough groups tbf.

While they're not amongst the cream of crop(Barca, us, Bayern, Real), they still deserve to be ranked pretty high. Maybe not within the top 5, but at least within the top 10.

I don't think they've done anything to justify being ranked above Juventus and PSG, they've never made it to the CL knockout stage, tough group or not.

 

[Mad Winger]

What have they actually done, other than win the Bundesliga?

And here we get to the core of the problem: you don't rate the Bundesliga.

They've won the Bundesliga two years in a row and while also winning the German Cup and pissing all over the likes of Real, City, Ajax and Arsenal(to a certain degree) in Europe. I think that should be sufficient to earn at least some respect. You'd have to be a complete moron to think otherwise.

Also, learn how to read. I didn't put Klopp ahead of Fergie and Mourinho. I simply wrote that amongst the "new" up-and-coming managers, he stands out. His merits speak for themselves.

Lastly, very few people here put Dortmund in the same ranks as Barca, Real or us. That is only fair. What's also fair however, is to put them in the same ranks as Juventus and City at least. They've more than earned it.

 

[Cevno]

feck all people have said over us though! More so that they're dark horses with the potential to cause a few upsets in the competition. You can't just dismiss their winning of a group (which included victories over City and Madrid) that had the reigning champions of Spain, Holland and England in it. That's total bullshit really. They also got a result against Shakhtar away from home, a team Chelsea couldn't get anywhere against. They've done fantastically well in Europe so far, what the feck else are they supposed to do to prove they can challenge?

Just a caveat here. Shakthar team that sold their best player since and hasn't played competitive football in quite a while. And even then it was a good competitive match.

Dortmund are a good team, yeah but not favorites ahead of the likes of Madrid/Juve/Us ? Teams with established world stars ?

Yeah, they can compete and cause a upset certainly. Don't think anybody is dismissing them but they still are a inexperienced team at this level.