If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by DeGea, May 6, 2019.

  1. May 6, 2019
    #1

    DeGea Full Member

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    Ok before I get slated for being crazy here, this is a genuine question.

    Jose has been successful when things are done his way - i.e. money and players who submit to him and do all of the tough things he wants them to do.

    We can safely say he was reasonably backed in terms of cash, maybe not enough, but decent amount spent. So no complaints there.

    However, when players were against him, I do not think the club backed him as a person/ideology/work culture. They should have made their position clear - "manager is the boss, if you do not like him or his style of play, we will sell you no problems. No hard feelings. We only want players who 100% buy into his methods and willing to run through brick walls for him."

    The reason I say this is that SAF was more revolutionary in terms of what he changed when he came, and he won a lot less at that stage in his career compared to Jose. But the club backed him and the rest is history. We can probably agree SAF was more vicious in the dressing room too and did not tolerate you once you go against him - Keane, Becks, Ruud are perfect examples. No matter how much you have done for the club.

    So, should the club have bought into his approach even more and instead remove the players rather than the manager? Shaw certainly improved once he listened to Jose. Is it unthinkable that our third season would have been different if we backed his authority even more?
  2. May 6, 2019
    #2

    Crashoutcassius Full Member

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    No I don't think so, I don't think he could challenge teams that finish on 95+ points.

    That said I think a real Mourinho team can still be successful, he will probably show that in his next job. I think while we still had zlatan and he still had the dressing room as a result we were quite effective
  3. May 6, 2019
    #3

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    No. We wouldn't have, just like how we didn't challenge last season when he was backed.
  4. May 6, 2019
    #4

    Sir Scott McToMinay New Member

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    His targets would’ve had us in a worse place we’re in right now.
    We would’ve had a bunch of 30 something players on high wages and would’ve become a post-mourinho Inter.

    Willian, Perisic and Maguire were a horrific list of targets and I’m glad he wasn’t backed.
    The would’ve made no difference against City and Liverpool.
    We would’ve made the top 4 this year, and that’s about that.
  5. May 6, 2019
    #5

    Wednesday at Stoke Full Member

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    Mourinho getting backed ideologically was what led to overhauling our wage structure and bringing in Sanchez. He is a man bereft of ideas, he is one the many has beens this club has tried to bring in and plaster over flesh wounds, he's gone, the club needs to learn its lessons and move on in earnest.
  6. May 6, 2019
    #6

    The Nani New Member

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    Feck no and feck the Caf obsession with that toxic cnut.
  7. May 6, 2019
    #7

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    No, I don't think so. Jose has previously shown that he's not a long term manager, and his second seasons were usually his strongest.

    Even if we backed him, I don't think we'd have been racking up 90+ points to challenge, and he'd have imploded then anyway, leaving us with an even more expensive and ageing squad.

    His football was dire and most of his signings have been duds anyway. So I am not sure why giving him more money/control/signings would necessarily have been the solution.

    All my opinion, of course.
  8. May 6, 2019
    #8

    Kapardin New Member

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    The fact is, Mourinho falls out with his own signings eventually, so it's hard to predict.

    I think we would finish on 80-85 points this season under peak Mourinho if there is no bickering in the squad and if we had got his signings. We would probably capitalize on Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal being shit, beat the fodder while playing turgid football but lose badly to City, Liverpool and some good midtable teams like Wolves or Leicester.

    Wouldn't be progress though, more papering the cracks.
  9. May 6, 2019
    #9

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    It is a very weird thing, isn't it?

    Sure he won us 2 trophies (thanks for that) but the amount of fans he has among our supporter base is not something I quite understand. He was, of course, not wrong with everything he said about our club - in the same way LvG wasn't either. But he was still correctly fired.

    I've lost count of the amount of Mourinho threads which have popped up since results in OGS' tenure started going downhill.
  10. May 6, 2019
    #10

    Ronaldo's Mum Eh? Ronaldo is shite

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    We would be in a better position with Mou if he cleared the toxic players out. It's funny how when Mou left everyone said the players are great and we just need a new manager. Now that Ole is doing poor, we have changed our tune to say the players are rotten. Football is a funny game.
  11. May 6, 2019
    #11

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    No.

    Pep and Klopp were building great football sides. Mourinho was building a plucky one where even the pluckiness faded away. His downfall at United was IMO inevitable.
  12. May 6, 2019
    #12

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Truth is always in between. We have some good players and some bad ones. What we need is a manager to A) coach them brilliantly and B) build a team well enough to not still be whining about his players 2.5 years in. If Ole's are disappointing in 2021, he'll rightfully go as well. If he doesn't rate Martial he should replace him with somebody who performs not an expensive and useless 30 year old and possibly Perisic when that didn't work out.
  13. May 6, 2019
    #13

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    I think the question and answer are intangible. The club is what Woodward has made it and it wouldn't exist any other way. I'm still not certain that any of our managers have had a reasonable aspect control over who we signed and who we could ship out.

    Asking this question is akin to asking whether football could exist in a quantum state when we haven't proven quantum mechanics beyond theory. We produced what we produced under Mourinho because Woodward wants it to be this way. Pantomime over pitch. I think you could make a pretty strong case for it being true but there would never have been any scope to bin off half of the squad after last years second place finish.
  14. May 6, 2019
    #14

    The Nani New Member

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    It’s baffling.

    He was was toxic, half arsed and his lack of respect for the club was disgusting.

    Yet he still has a cult following here.
  15. May 6, 2019
    #15

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    He should have been sacked after the second season ended. We didn't pay heed to history and paid the price.
  16. May 6, 2019
    #16

    Jaae Full Member

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    I don't think he could have competed with what City are doing in the league.

    I do think he could have won us a CL though. People will mention Sevilla but we were massive favourites in that tie and that's something Mourinho as never been comfortable with. Playing against a PSG, Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus as the underdog is where he comes alive.

    He clearly didn't fancy Martial or Pogba. His rumoured signings of Perisic and Willian may have been underwhelming but they'd have served Lukaku better than Martial/Rashford/Lingard did, seeing that the former were actually wingers. Their experience would have told playing on the counter in big CL games.
  17. May 6, 2019
    #17

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    Each to their own, I guess. I just don't understand the show of loyalty towards him.
  18. May 6, 2019
    #18

    Andrew~ Squiggle

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    Jose was backed, he was here for two years, brought in a bunch of players he later decided he didn't rate and wanted a shedload of cash to fix the mess he'd created. On top of that he mismanaged the squad he had and fell out with all his best players. He had to go.
  19. May 6, 2019
    #19

    shamans Hoser

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    No because he was backed and then his targets were fail.
  20. May 6, 2019
    #20

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a truck.
  21. May 6, 2019
    #21

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    This. End thread.
  22. May 6, 2019
    #22

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Jose biggest enemy isnt the board. It's the player that refuses to play according to his instructions. As bad as his football is when done right it'll bear fruit.

    He for better or worse tried to instil some discipline into martial and the fans instead of trusting the manager sided with the petulant brat and creates the division, we're a victim of internal politics imho
  23. May 6, 2019
    #23

    norm87cro New Member

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    Yes. No doubt about it.
  24. May 6, 2019
    #24

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    This.

    Jose wouldn't have built a pretty side, but an effective side. He has the track record for it. He would have not build an empire like Fergie and his character would bound to create rift with supporters, board and players in the long term.

    All in all he didn't have the players for it and last season he didn't have the backing of it, so naturally he was bound to fail.
  25. May 6, 2019
    #25

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Well I understand it perfectly well.
    He knows what is required to win competitions and has a proven track record for doing just that in Portugal, Spain, Italy and of course here three times in the PL on two occasions with Chelsea.

    And he was on schedule to do the same with United, getting us to 2nd last season. I don’t agree with those who say it was a fluke. The records show that we finished second in his second season.
    Success is never a straight line and there are always set backs and it has to be said that this season was a set back. But there are a range of mitigating circumstances for that including his mismanagement.
    The fact that he was not supported by the club effectively made him a dead man walking and the majority of the players stopped working for him as a result.
    Nevertheless, I strongly maintain that this was a missed opportunity for us to get back to challenging for the top honours and time will show whether this is correct.
  26. May 6, 2019
    #26

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Nah. City and Liverpool are just too far ahead.
  27. May 6, 2019
    #27

    WensleyMU New Member

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    The answer is simple. Jose was backed in season 1, and again in season 2.

    From this he produced 2 trophies (being in the EL was not his fault), gained CL qualification and brought smiles back to most fans faces. In season two, he initially mounted a challenge but eventually couldn't compete with City's dominance. However he took us from 6th to 2nd, a position we held all season basically.

    It is at this point that any competent club would have backed the manager for the next step. More so after handing him a new contract but we are not dealing with a competent club, we are dealing with Manchester United, run by those who haven't got a clue what they are doing.

    That's before we even get into the issues with various players. Which are discussed in numerous threads.

    It's highly likely this season would have gone very differently had he been backed in the summer.
  28. May 6, 2019
    #28

    Ace of Spades Full Member

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    /thread
  29. May 6, 2019
    #29

    WensleyMU New Member

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    Liverpool were behind us 12 months ago, had been all season.

    The key difference between the clubs occured in the summer. One was backed, one wasn't.

    The results are there for all to see.
  30. May 6, 2019
    #30

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    I don't think Harry Maguire and Ivan Perisic were enough to see us hit 98 points this season, but fair enough.
  31. May 6, 2019
    #31

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Like it or not, Jose has produced the best results since Fergie left - 2 titles, 2nd place finish. As a result of this he was given a long contract and as a compensation Woodward was picking his targets and not backing him in the same Summer, he probably promised him doing so.

    Fast forward 6 months Jose is sacked (deservedly, but can't say unexpectedly), interim is hired, then promoted, then should be fired but we will give him time as otherwise Woodward will look silly. Then when Ole fails come the Winter we will hire new one - rinse and repeat.
  32. May 6, 2019
    #32

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Spot on
  33. May 6, 2019
    #33

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    If Jose was backed you wouldn't think we would be third this season, considering the last 2 months and the 73/4 points required to do so?

    Wouldn't it be better with yet another CL season come next year, than 6th place and again no clear plan where to go?
  34. May 6, 2019
    #34

    WensleyMU New Member

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    Nobody knew or expected Liverpool to reach 90+ points... Certainly not off the back of signing VVD....

    I do however remember the discussions here on how signing a defender Would transform us. Funny how A season later, it's our biggest rivals who did just that (albeit in the Winter window) and have reaped the benefits.

    How many goals is it we have conceded again this season? But of course, a CB, Maguire or other wouldn't have made a jot of difference....
  35. May 6, 2019
    #35

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    That wasn't the question though. The question was whether we would be challenging for the league. Liverpool and City being as good as they are has rendered the whole debacle irrelevant.

    I was all for backing Jose last summer, and was in general a Jose fan. It was criminal that Ed decided he knew better and refused to sanction his targets, after which Jose basically became a dead man walking.

    But the question wasn't "would we be third?" The question was "would we challenge?" We might well be sat in third right now on 70-odd points as you say, but would you call being 25 points off the top challenging for the league? Because I certainly wouldn't. Regardless of Jose's targets last summer, City and Liverpool are on another planet right now.
  36. May 6, 2019
    #36

    fezzerUTD New Member

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    If the players wernt so up themselves and he got what he wanted yes.
  37. May 6, 2019
    #37

    Champagne Football Full Member

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    In his first Chelsea stint he could hand-pick the cream of Portuguese talent, hand-pick the cream of Spurs or any other Premier league club with just a phone call, could drop a new £50 million signing after their first 5 minutes of game time and demand a fresh £50 million for a new player to replace them... All this and more yet still couldn't last more than 3 seasons.

    Jose is a brilliant brilliant manager for an underdog club but has been found out at elite clubs. His methods don't work for elite clubs who expect winning and at least a small measure of excitement. His ego outgrew his overhyped talent.

    Roma, Lyon and Celtic are his true level of club where he could win a Europa league at one of those clubs, by signing a handful of 30 year old Portuguese and Italian defenders on massive salaries, and park the bus all the way to winning a Europa title for them.
  38. May 6, 2019
    #38

    Tiber Full Member

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    Jose was backed to the hilt and wasted it. He has nobody to blame but himself
  39. May 6, 2019
    #39

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Right? But they did, hence why we wouldn't be challenging.

    Van Dijk was the final piece of the jigsaw. Yeah, put Harry Maguire in this team - but we'd still look creatively bankrupt going forward. Liverpool had a good team for him to step into, and that's the difference.
  40. May 6, 2019
    #40

    Avocado Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Pretty sure if he was backed with first team improvements he would have challenged the title this year. That would involve, of course, at least one new CB, 2 FBs, a defensive midfielder and a winger.

    Time shall prove him right.